Free Minds

Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Raheem

Recently I heard comments from one "Yousef Abdellah", a Sunnah-rejector who said that circumcision is against the Pure Quran. It came to my attention that Sunnah-rejectors do not practice male circumcision and therefore they are going against the way of the Prophets beginning with our Father Prophet Ebrahim peace be upon him.

Circumcision is the practice of Believers which sets them apart from pagans. As you know apart from Muslims virtually no other religion practices circumcision. And now medically it is proven to be essential for cleanliness and preventing diseases like cancer.

As a Muslim who follows the Sunnah and Hadith, I believe that circumcision is a commandment of Allah Tabarrak wa Taala. As you know in the Pure Quran it says that the Prophet peace be upon him "allows them what is pure and forbids upon them that which is unclean" (Surah 7:158) Therefore it is mentioned in the Hadith that the Prophet peace be upon him ordered the Aqiqah for the boy on the seventh day and the removal of the harmful thing (foreskin).

Since the foreskin is declared by the Prophet peace be upon him as a harmful and impure thing which must be removed on the seventh day after the birth of a boy at the time of his Aqiqah. This is in accordance with the Pure Quran which is saying that the Prophet peace be upon him is the one who forbids the Believers what is unclean.

My question to the Sunnah rejectors and other people who do not practice circumcision is why do you go against the practice of the great Prophets like Ebrahim and Mohammad peace be upon them?

Israfeel.

Your arguments are flawed since:

Jews also practice circumcision and they do it also today.

Jews believe that the children of Israel were ordered this practice in order to set them apart from pagans. However, children of Israel don't exist anymore.

But you should really be aware, that most people on this site believes in the Quran and since Quran has not ordered circumcision then it is not compulsory. Some would even say that circumcision is abuse while others would say its a matter of choice.

You are welcome to post some evidence for circumcision to be essential for cleanliness instead of just making a claim. I live in a Western Country and I never saw someone dying of cancer or being unclean because they don't practice circumcision. So come with your proof and then we can talk about it.

Peace

Quote from: Maha on June 13, 2013, 11:46:01 AM
Israfeel.

Your arguments are flawed since:

Jews also practice circumcision and they do it also today.

Jews believe that the children of Israel were ordered this practice in order to set them apart from pagans. However, children of Israel don't exist anymore.

But you should really be aware, that most people on this site believes in the Quran and since Quran has not ordered circumcision then it is not compulsory. Some would even say that circumcision is abuse while others would say its a matter of choice.

You are welcome to post some evidence for circumcision to be essential for cleanliness instead of just making a claim. I live in a Western Country and I never saw someone dying of cancer or being unclean because they don't practice circumcision. So come with your proof and then we can talk about it.

Peace

Let me answer point by point.

Circumcision is from the Covenant of Abraham, has nothing to do with Jews. In fact all three religions (Islam, Christianity, and Judaism) recognize that Prophet Abraham peace be upon him is the first to institute the practice of circumcision, and this practice is what distinguishes his followers from all the other pagan religions, atheists, and of course, Sunnah rejectors.

See what I wrote before how the Pure Quran mandates circumcision. As far as circumcision being healthy or necessary for hygiene, ask any medical expert and he will tell you.

Peace,

Circumcision is just a fake rule. It originates from the passages of the Old Testament. Being circumcised means minimal benefits and a lot of disadvantages. The only benefit I think of is that it may be easier to clean yourself after a toilet visit, but otherwise you have cut off a part of the bodily defense. Yes, the foreskin is there for a reason, God created it that way or else He would not have placed it there in the first place if it was to be surgically removed. The pleasure while in intercourse is also adversely affected.

Removing the foreskin is a very painful process even while sedated and I can guess what an experience it would have been for the alleged removal of Ibrahim's foreskin in adult age according to the Old Testament. Probably this procedure is rather a lie since I doubt God would order everyone to surgically remove their foreskin. Maybe it is an error in the translation.

Circumcision is not mentioned even once in Quran. And was it that important the Quran would have mentioned it or at least hinted at it.

Go against the practices of Ibrahim or Muhammad? The only scriptural evidence is from the Bible. Is that a reliable source when it comes to such drastical procedures?

And please do not mention hadith, because that is just not a viable source of information.

It seems against all logic to surgically remove something.

God bless you

Quote from: Man of Faith on June 13, 2013, 02:33:23 PM
Peace,

Circumcision is just a fake rule. It originates from the passages of the Old Testament. Being circumcised means minimal benefits and a lot of disadvantages. The only benefit I think of is that it may be easier to clean yourself after a toilet visit, but otherwise you have cut off a part of the bodily defense. Yes, the foreskin is there for a reason, God created it that way or else He would not have placed it there in the first place if it was to be surgically removed. The pleasure while in intercourse is also adversely affected.

Removing the foreskin is a very painful process even while sedated and I can guess what an experience it would have been for the alleged removal of Ibrahim's foreskin in adult age according to the Old Testament. Probably this procedure is rather a lie since I doubt God would order everyone to surgically remove their foreskin. Maybe it is an error in the translation.

Circumcision is not mentioned even once in Quran. And was it that important the Quran would have mentioned it or at least hinted at it.

Go against the practices of Ibrahim or Muhammad? The only scriptural evidence is from the Bible. Is that a reliable source when it comes to such drastical procedures?

And please do not mention hadith, because that is just not a viable source of information.

It seems against all logic to surgically remove something.

God bless you

For me the Hadith is just as viable a source of information as the Holy Quran. But since you reject the Hadith and you want to know if the Quran mentions circumcision or even hints at it. The answer is yes indeed circumcision is proven from the Quran. Many times the Quran says to follow the religion and ways of Prophet Abraham. In one place it says:

قَدْ كَانَتْ لَكُمْ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ فِي إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ

You have a good example to follow in Abraham and those who are with him (Surah 60:5)

Now the question is that is it proven historically that circumcision is from the covenant of Abraham. Both the Torah and also the Hadith proves historically that Prophet Abraham was circumcised on commandment of Allah Azza wa Gall at the age of 80 years. True this is not directly mentioned in Quran, but neither it is denied.

And everyone from the Christians Jews and Muslims accept this historical fact, except for Hadith rejectors. This proves that Hadith rejectors have turned away from the Way of Abraham.

Also, I would like to quote this Ayah:

إِنَّ اللّهَ يُحِبُّ التَّوَّابِينَ وَيُحِبُّ الْمُتَطَهِّرِينَ

Verily Allah loves the Repentant and loves the purified (Surah 2:223)

'Mutatahhireen' is not only those who are spiritually pure, but also physically pure. From the physical purity of a man is that he is circumcised, as the Prophet Sallallaahu alayhi wasallam said that from the characteristics of purity is to circumcise, to trim the nails, to remove the pubic hair, to remove the armpit hair, to trim the mustache. Now just because these things are not directly mentioned in the Holy Quran does not mean that a person won't be sinful if he doesn't do them. These items are essential for outward as well as inward purity, because Allah loves the purified, meaning He hates the unclean.

Sunnah rejectors are showing that their religion does not at all value outward purity, only inward purity. But we know from the Holy Quran that inner purity and outward purity are strongly related, and you can't have one without the other.

@Israfeel: You meant 60:4 and 2:222, I assume

Why would you cut out the rest of 60:4 like that?
"There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, "Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah . We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" except for the saying of Abraham to his father, "I will surely ask forgiveness for you, but I have not [power to do] for you anything against Allah . Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination." [60:4] (Sahih International)

It's all one line, if you ignore everything but the very first part then of course you can open it up to anything Abraham (pbuh) allegedly did. But it defines what it means when it talks about following his example, doesn't it?

You did the same thing with 2:222, this time only quoting the end of the line:
"And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves." [2:222] (Sahih International)

The surrounding verses are relevent here but long story short, it's talking very specifically about women during the menstruation period...right?

Quote from: Azz on June 13, 2013, 04:37:38 PM
@Israfeel: You meant 60:4 and 2:222, I assume

Why would you cut out the rest of 60:4 like that?
"There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, "Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah . We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" except for the saying of Abraham to his father, "I will surely ask forgiveness for you, but I have not [power to do] for you anything against Allah . Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination." [60:4] (Sahih International)

It's all one line, if you ignore everything but the very first part then of course you can open it up to anything Abraham (pbuh) allegedly did. But it defines what it means when it talks about following his example, doesn't it?

You did the same thing with 2:222, this time only quoting the end of the line:
"And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves." [2:222] (Sahih International)

The surrounding verses are relevent here but long story short, it's talking very specifically about women during the menstruation period...right?

Both of these verses state general principles, "Abraham is a beautiful example to follow", and "Allah loves those who are purified". To say that these statements are only restricted to the examples mentioned in those verses is an incorrect understanding.

I also find it interesting that in the Pure Quran menstruation is referred to as 'Adha' أذى a harmful thing requiring purification, because in the Hadith our beloved Prophet Sallallaahu alayhi wasallam has referred to the foreskin as الأذى and must be removed because it is impure, just like menstruation is impure

Nowhere does the Qur'an say that Ibrahim had to circumcise or was circumcised.

Salaam

Quote from: huruf on June 13, 2013, 05:43:22 PM
Nowhere does the Qur'an say that Ibrahim had to circumcise or was circumcised.

Salaam

Nowhere does it say he was uncircumcised.

To not be circumcised its already proven to be impure and unclean. The Quran says that Allah loves those who are purified (Surah 2:223)

Following Abraham (pbuh) and maintaining physicial & spiritual purity are general principles, yes. For those two lines you mentioned though, I feel the "definitions" given are extremely important to the stated principles though - they wouldn't be in the same line if they weren't. Even so, the Quran goes at length to discuss following Abraham (pbuh) and purity and something as supposedly vital as circumcision to not be mentioned in the Quran. I know what you're thinking here, the hadith, but there's more to my thoughts on this than just that.

lines 32:6-9:
"That is the Knower of the unseen and the witnessed, the Exalted in Might, the Merciful"
"Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay."
"Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained."
"Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful."
(Sahih International)

Wording varies a bit depending on the translation but you sound like you know arabic, you should know that "proportioned" is pretty much spot-on here. When talking about creating the proportions of man, why were we created uncircumsized? If we are supposed to circumsize ourselves, why not mention this as a responsibility in the Quran? Circumcision is an act that requires expertise, it isn't a basic act of cleanliness that can simply be picked up through common sense.

honestly, imo circumcision is a bit of a minor issue really, even in regards to cleanliness. I know you'll disagree with me on this, but I just can't help but be kinda indifferent on it - as I was circumcized shortly after being born myself. The Quran doesn't directly mention to it though and it seems like the sorta thing touched upon in 5:48:
"And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ."
(Sahih International)

ie likely a product of man-made law. To my knowledge, there is no concrete evidence that a circumsized person is physicaly cleaner than an uncircumsized one. There are studies but different studies have reached different results and there is no hard conclusion on the matter yet. Because of that, I just see it as sorta irrelevant to the faith really. But someone being circumcized wouldn't be damned in any way, from what I understand.

Within the context of 2:222 + it's surrounding verses it should be pretty obvious why menstruation is referred to as harmful. The hadith you mentioned doesn't seem overtly interesting to me, it seems like common-sense that foreskin would be referred to like that within the context of saying you have to remove it for the sake of purity.

As to the question why circumcision is not directly detailed in the Quran, I find it interesting that Mr. Rashad Khalifa gave the same answer as me with regard to the details of Salat not being detailed in Quran. The submission.org website says:

QuoteAs far as all of our rites, Quran only dealt with whatever got altered since Abraham such as the tone of our prayer (17:110), the basic steps of ablution (5:6), the times of our five daily contact prayers, the command of giving the utmost importance to the Friday Congregational Prayer (62:9), allowing sexual relationship with our spouses during the nights of Ramadan (2:187), whatever is mentioned in regard of Hajj and Umrah, and whatever is mentioned in regard of our Zakat, with the highlight that it is due whenever we collect or receive our income (6:141). Anything in regard of our rituals that is not detailed in Quran has been already preserved by God and passed down correctly and this is basically why it is not detailed in Quran.

In other words, Mr. Rashad Khalifa and his followers are saying that the details of Salat do not have to be given in Quran because these were originally practiced by Abraham and passed down for centuries.

Similarly I say that the practice of circumcision originates from Abraham and has been passed down for centuries, this why according to Submission.org's own principle "anything in regard to our rituals that is not detailed in Quran has been already preserved by God and passed down correctly and this is basically why it is not detailed in Quran".

Secondly you ask the question "why were we created uncircumcised?" My counter question is "why were we created naked?" If Allah created us naked then why should we put on clothes? You will say because Allah also created us with the sense of shame and with the ability to create clothes and with the desire to beautify ourselves through clothing. My answer is the same for circumcision, Allah created us with the desire to be clean, and so gave us the divine knowledge how to circumcise.

Some people follow a sort of 'naturalist' philosophy like the Sikhs who say we should not do anything to our bodies. They even go to the extreme of not cutting a single hair from their body and they justify this by saying "God created us in this way...scissors is a manmade invention." Of course we Muslims do not subscribe to this bizarre philosophy. Yes God gave us hair, but He also created the scissors so we can cut it when it gets too long.

I hope this has helped to convince you that not only is circumcision necessary, it is mandated by Islam from Quran and Hadith.

Like I said, circumcision hasn't been proven to make one cleaner yet - and then there's the whole argument about the risks of circumcision. It might make one cleaner, it may also be a result of the "law" mentioned in 5:48.

Your clothing point is interesting though. At this moment in time I genuinely have no answer for that.

Quote from: Israfeel on June 13, 2013, 08:46:56 AM
Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Raheem

Recently I heard comments from one "Yousef Abdellah", a Sunnah-rejector who said that circumcision is against the Pure Quran. It came to my attention that Sunnah-rejectors do not practice male circumcision and therefore they are going against the way of the Prophets beginning with our Father Prophet Ebrahim peace be upon him.

I think both you and "Yousef Abdullah" are mistaken, feel free to circumcise or not circumcise, it's not even being mentioned in the Quran.

QuoteCircumcision is the practice of Believers which sets them apart from pagans.

You must be joking!

The difference between "believers" and "pagans" lies upon their GENITAL???

QuoteAs you know apart from Muslims virtually no other religion practices circumcision.

Circumcision is widely practiced by semitic people, including but not limited to: Arabs, Jews, Syrians, Egyptians, Ethiopians..
And some of them does worship idols (in one way or another)

QuoteAnd now medically it is proven to be essential for cleanliness and preventing diseases like cancer.

Really? Can you provide the reference of the research?

QuoteAs a Muslim who follows the Sunnah and Hadith, I believe that circumcision is a commandment of Allah Tabarrak wa Taala.

You are free to believe whatever you want.. cutting or not cutting the foreskin of your genital doesn't really matter anyway..

Quote
My question to the Sunnah rejectors and other people who do not practice circumcision is why do you go against the practice of the great Prophets like Ebrahim and Mohammad peace be upon them?

First thing first, I am circumcised, yet I don't see that such practice are essential in order for one to live a good life or be a good person.

I think you should ponder more on the issue...

Salam / Peace

@israfeel,

So what you are saying is God created something that is unclean.   All men are created by God unclean.   Some boys cannot have circumcision because of conditions like hypospadias and so these men will be unclean and cannot be believers because of how God created them?  Is this what you are saying? 

Quote from: justamuslim on June 13, 2013, 10:54:24 PM
@israfeel,

So what you are saying is God created something that is unclean.   All men are created by God unclean.   Some boys cannot have circumcision because of conditions like hypospadias and so these men will be unclean and cannot be believers because of how God created them?  Is this what you are saying?

good point  :bravo:

Quote from: Israfeel on June 13, 2013, 02:26:14 PM
As far as circumcision being healthy or necessary for hygiene, ask any medical expert and he will tell you.

What medical expert?   

Can you please explain how foreskin is unhealthy and unclean? 

Shalom Aleikhem,

Although virtually all of your posts are heavily dependent on logical fallacies, I would like to focus on one of your claims:

Quote from: Israfeel on June 13, 2013, 05:50:25 PM
Nowhere does it say he was uncircumcised.

To not be circumcised its already proven to be impure and unclean. The Quran says that Allah loves those who are purified (Surah 2:223)

1. Can you actually prove that?
2. If you can not, do you have the intellectual honesty to retract that statement?


Peace
---------------- Student of Allah

A debate thread again?  You bring up the old topic Israfeel.

Peace ahlan Israfeel, before you started this topic, it's better you use search tool then you can find some discussions about "circumcision" before.

or if you won't do it, just read  articles on this: http://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/circumcision.html
                                                                          http://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/intact_sex.html

I know you're a Sunnah waljama'ah and its pointless if you debate with us especially about khitan, because Sunni and Quran alone theologies and fiqh are different.

Example: You tafseer the Quran by using hadiths like you tafseer verse 2:223 as commandment for khitan while Quran aloners is not.

Peace,

Follow the example of Ibrahim. This verse does not hint at circumcision at all. The good example of Ibrahim is to be a devoted servant of God.

And circumcision brings negative adverse effects on the nerve cells of those who went through the procedure, like me. Like I said, the only positive effect of the whole thing has been that I do not have to touch "it" when I go to the bathroom.

Still, when I did it in the past I touched the foreskin only so no problem in that.

And having it on does not mean that you are impure. We were created with the foreskin and it does have a bodily function, ask an independent physician. It has its own ability to keep itself clean, but this function is lost when you carve it off.

Normal hygiene keeps it clean.

How would you explain the internals of a female? Are they also "impure" since they cannot remove any tissue so the organs "dry up"? Their urinary tract works somewhat like a male's except theirs is on the inside instead of outside. Removing the foreskin is to disable the normal bodily function. The fluids which are on the penis are there to protect it and not because it is impure, just like those inside the female. They disappear when you remove the foreskin leaving it fully exposed.

I am sure circumcision is an invented religious procedure because of man-made ideas. Not once does the Quran even hint slightly at it. If it was existent God would have mentioned it in His book.

God bless you

There is cutting off a man's...... :rotfl:

Its about something else.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10193.msg48916#msg48916

  :!

Having read many of your replies, it seems the overwhelming objection to me is to provide some reference that circumcision is necessary for cleanliness.

Please read this article from the New York Times titled 'Benefits of Circumcision Are Said to Outweigh Risks'.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/27/science/benefits-of-circumcision-outweigh-risks-pediatric-group-says.html?_r=0

QuoteThe American Academy of Pediatrics has shifted its stance on infant male circumcision, announcing on Monday that new research, including studies in Africa suggesting that the procedure may protect heterosexual men against H.I.V., indicated that the health benefits outweighed the risks.

So yes, it is medically proven that circumcision is necessary and highly recommended by non-Muslim American Academy of Pediatrics for reducing likelihood of such diseases as HIV, urinary tract infection, etc.

However, as Muslims, we our primary concern is that circumcision is the Sunnah of Prophet Ebrahim peace be upon him and all the prophets after him. The medical benefits are only icing on the cake.

I'd also like to add that among adult males, there is a growing demand for circumcision. Many of them are literally in waiting lines to get circumcised and willing to pay a hefty price in thousands of dollars for the simple procedure.

On the other hand we Muslims are circumcised on the seventh day after being born for free. Isn't that a great advantage? People say circumcision is very painful. However, since I was circumcised as a baby I have absolutely no memory of it - therefore no trauma.

Now my point is simple. Since Sunnah rejectors do not practice circumcision and do not consider it sinful to be uncircumcised, they are going against the Quran when it says "Allah loves those who are repentant and He loves those who are purified". Based on this we can conclude that Sunnah rejectors are not included in the Al-Mutatahhireen (those who are purified).

Quote from: Israfeel on June 14, 2013, 05:31:46 AM
Based on this we  can conclude that Sunnah rejectors are not included in the Al-Mutatahhireen (those who are purified).

Salaamun alayka,

Who is "we"?

Salaam,
Bender

Here is what the American academy of pediatrics says:

After a comprehensive review of the scientific evidence, the American Academy of Pediatrics found the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks, but the benefits are not great enough to recommend universal newborn circumcision. The AAP policy statement published Monday, August 27, says the final decision should still be left to parents to make in the context of their religious, ethical and cultural beliefs.

And the American Academy of Family Practice:

Considerable controversy surrounds neonatal circumcision. Putative indications for neonatal circumcision have included preventing UTIs and their sequelae, preventing the contraction of STDs including HIV, and preventing penile cancer as well as other reasons for adult circumcision. Circumcision is not without risks. Bleeding, infection, and failure to remove enough foreskin occur in less than 1% of circumcisions. Evidence-based complications from circumcision include pain, bruising, and meatitis. More serious complications have also occurred. Although numerous studies have been conducted to evaluate these postulates, only a few used the quality of methodology necessary to consider the results as high level evidence.

The evidence indicates that neonatal circumcision prevents UTIs in the first year of life with an absolute risk reduction of about 1% and prevents the development of penile cancer with an absolute risk reduction of less than 0.2%. The evidence suggests that circumcision reduces the rate of acquiring an STD, but careful sexual prac tices and hygiene may be as effective. Circumcision appears to decrease the transmission of HIV in underdeveloped areas where the virus is highly prevalent. No study has systematically evaluated the utility of routine neonatal circumcision for preventing all medically-indicated circumcisions in later life. Evidence regarding the association between cervical cancer and a woman?s partner being circumcised or uncircumcised, and evidence regarding the effect of circumcision on sexual functioning is inconclusive. If the decision is made to circumcise, anesthesia should be used.

The American Academy of Family Physicians recommends physicians discuss the potential harms and benefits of circumcision with all parents or legal guardians considering this procedure for their newborn son. (2001)

You can read the full article at:  http://www.aafp.org/patient-care/clinical-recommendations/all/circumcision.html

Quote from: Israfeel on June 14, 2013, 05:27:53 AM
So yes, it is medically proven that circumcision is necessary and highly recommended by non-Muslim American Academy of Pediatrics for reducing likelihood of such diseases as HIV, urinary tract infection, etc.

I suggest that you read the position statements on circumcision by the American academy of pediatrics and American academy of family practice.   

No, circumcision is NOT highly recommended by medical doctors.   

I suggest that you read about who gets STD.   What are the likelihood of uncircumcised men who have only one lifetime sexual partner of getting HIV, cervical cancer and such?   A virgin man marries a virgin woman is not getting HIV.  So if you really want to reduce the likelihood of HIV, then follow God's guidance and not fornicate having multiple sexual partners.   

Quote from: Bender on June 14, 2013, 05:49:46 AM
Salaamun alayka,

Who is "we"?

Salaam,
Bender

Wa alaykum as salaam

We the Muslims, or at least those Muslims who follow the Sunnah.

Here are a few questions I have for Hadith rejectors who say that since circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran, it is not necessary:

1. Going by this line of reasoning, removal of pubic hair, armpit hair, and trimming of fingernails and toenails when they become long or dirty are not mentioned in the Holy Quran either. Therefore, according to Hadith rejectors, will such people who do not remove pubic hair, armpit hair, nails, etc., be considered as sinful or not? Western and non-Muslim people do not remove pubic hair/armpit hair, do Hadith rejectors follow their culture also since it is not forbidden in Quran?

2. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, stool, maniyy, madhiyy (seminal fluid), vomit, is impure. According to Hadith-rejectors will a person be sinful if he does not wash off these things from his body or clothes?

3. According to Hadith-rejectors, will a person be sinful for (God forbid) drinking these things which are not explicitly declared impure in the Quran, as this is the culture of many Westerners/non-Muslims?

4. According to the Quran, the meat of swine is forbidden, but nowhere in the Quran does it say that the perspiration or saliva of swine, or any other animal for that matter, is impure. If these things get onto the clothes or body of a Hadith-rejector, will he be sinful for not washing them off, or praying while traces of a pig's saliva or perspiration is on his body and/or clothes?

5. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, dung, or seminal fluid of any animal is impure. Are these things halal for Hadith-rejectors, and will a Hadith rejector be sinful for touching, drinking, or not removing these traces from his body and clothes?

If you reject circumcision and say it is not mentioned in the Quran, then how will you answer the above five questions?

Quote from: Israfeel on June 14, 2013, 06:28:46 AM
Wa alaykum as salaam

We the Muslims, or at least those Muslims who follow the Sunnah.

Salaamun alayka,

That's a big relief, because as far as I know, you (= Muslims who follow the Sunnah) are not the ones who judges who is of Al-Mutatahhireen and who not.

Salaam,
Bender

Salam Israfeel,

Circumcision is not discussed in the Quran as far as I am aware.

In regards to Ahadith, yes it is mentioned however it is a Sunnah and different schools of thoughts have different rulings on the matter.

A circumcised man is generally preferred over a non circumcised man however, it is not a fard i.e Hanafi and Malaki school of thought do not believe it is a fard.

Parents make their own decisions about their children's health and body well being (including circumcision).

There is information for and against circumcision and one shouldn't just blindly adhere to decisions because of social practises.

BTW 2:223 doesn't mention anything about God loving the purified. I guess you meant 2:222. However you're correlating different topics. Moreover, the hadiths I have read on circumcision talk about fitra not tahara that's two different things, though my knowledge on the matter is limited and maybe you know otherwise?

Quote from: SarahY on June 14, 2013, 07:10:46 AM
Salam Israfeel,

Circumcision is not discussed in the Quran as far as I am aware.

In regards to Ahadith, yes it is mentioned however it is a Sunnah and different schools of thoughts have different rulings on the matter.

A circumcised man is generally preferred over a non circumcised man however, it is not a fard i.e Hanafi and Malaki school of thought do not believe it is a fard.

Parents make their own decisions about their children's health and body well being (including circumcision).

There is information for and against circumcision and one shouldn't just blindly adhere to decisions because of social practises.

BTW 2:223 doesn't mention anything about God loving the purified. I guess you meant 2:222. However you're correlating different topics. Moreover, the hadiths I have read on circumcision talk about fitra not tahara that's two different things, though my knowledge on the matter is limited and maybe you know otherwise?

Thanks for your response. I do not believe in Hanafi or Maliki schools of thought. As a follower of Hadith, I believe circumcision is fard, as this is very clear from the Ahadith of our Prophet peace be upon him as recorded in the Bukhari Sharif.

Also I do mean 2:223 since I believe that Bismillah is an Ayah of the Quran, and therefore the correct ayah number is 2:223

Fitrah means what is natural, and what Allah created as our natural disposition. Therefore isn't taharah (purity) part of man's nature? Doesn't a baby naturally cry when he has a dirty diaper? This is from the Fitra to be clean and pure, and this is why circumcision is part of the fitrah.

No problem.

Regardless of what scholar or scholarly knowledge you follow you claim to follow the sunnah as do they (Hanafi and Malaki) yet they have different conclusions than you. This shows how you (and they) view, accept or interpret hadith is subjective. Unless you know of a none faulty methodology you'd like to share? if so, please let me know. However, if it is just following Bukhari Sharif, I'd advise you research a bit more about Imam Bukhari before accepting all his hadiths as infallible sources. Also care to share the hadith?

Following an unconventional number format based on including bismillah can mislead or confuse people. So thanks for clarifying however you do understand it can confuse people?? so maybe in future you could mention including bismillah in the count.

Define natural disposition? if a child is born with 6 toes on 1 foot is that a natural disposition?

Being born with foreskin doesn't make you unnatural.

A baby does not naturally cry when s/he has a dirty diaper. Children have different temperaments some children cry because of a dirty diaper others do not. According to your logic all babies should cry until they are circumcised (sounds silly right)

Fitrah can refer to what is natural, can refer to instincts and inbuilt dispositions.

Tahara is a conditioned act, For example tahara isn't simply about being "CLEAN" take for example 9:103 in which giving wealth is tahara.

There are many forms of purity but I believe your focus is on cleanliness. Cleanliness isn't part of mans nature but part of social practices, it is a learnt habit.

Tahara and Fitra are different.

If you believe circumcision is part of being clean based on your research, that's fine that's your choice but I doubt you'd convince everyone and you can't really make it an obligation or prohibition as Allah swt is the law maker.

I hope that makes sense

Salam.

Quote from: Israfeel on June 14, 2013, 06:42:22 AM
Here are a few questions I have for Hadith rejectors who say that since circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran, it is not necessary:

1. Going by this line of reasoning, removal of pubic hair, armpit hair, and trimming of fingernails and toenails when they become long or dirty are not mentioned in the Holy Quran either. Therefore, according to Hadith rejectors, will such people who do not remove pubic hair, armpit hair, nails, etc., be considered as sinful or not? Western and non-Muslim people do not remove pubic hair/armpit hair, do Hadith rejectors follow their culture also since it is not forbidden in Quran?

2. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, stool, maniyy, madhiyy (seminal fluid), vomit, is impure. According to Hadith-rejectors will a person be sinful if he does not wash off these things from his body or clothes?

3. According to Hadith-rejectors, will a person be sinful for (God forbid) drinking these things which are not explicitly declared impure in the Quran, as this is the culture of many Westerners/non-Muslims?

4. According to the Quran, the meat of swine is forbidden, but nowhere in the Quran does it say that the perspiration or saliva of swine, or any other animal for that matter, is impure. If these things get onto the clothes or body of a Hadith-rejector, will he be sinful for not washing them off, or praying while traces of a pig's saliva or perspiration is on his body and/or clothes?

5. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, dung, or seminal fluid of any animal is impure. Are these things halal for Hadith-rejectors, and will a Hadith rejector be sinful for touching, drinking, or not removing these traces from his body and clothes?

If you reject circumcision and say it is not mentioned in the Quran, then how will you answer the above five questions?

(1) All those can attract and maintain dirt on the body. You have already said earlier what the Quran says about physical purity.

(4) The previous point still applies...furthermore, we are to strive to keep our clothes as clean as we can:
"And your clothing purify"
"And uncleanliness avoid"
[74:4 - 74:5] (Sahih International)
If for some reason you're covered in animal sweat the normal thing to do would be to want to wash yourself and your clothes, I assume (more on this line of thinking at the end of the post)

2, 3, 5 are similar points so I'll  try to tackle them together if you don't mind.  Firstly and briefly, see 16:66
"And indeed, for you in grazing livestock is a lesson. We give you drink from what is in their bellies - between excretion and blood - pure milk, palatable to drinkers."
(Sahih International) (stress added by myself)

Moving towards a more general principle on the matter:
"O mankind, eat from whatever is on earth [that is] lawful and good and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy."
"O you who have believed, do not prohibit the good things which Allah has made lawful to you and do not transgress. Indeed, Allah does not like transgressors."
[2:168 and 5:87] (Sahih International) (stress on 2:168 added by myself)
"lawful and good"? The word used, tayyiban, means good/pure. Obviously, what is lawful may not be good/pure ie it may not be clean or something, and vice versa.  But there is a distinction to be made between something being unlawful to eat and something being impure, hence why they were seperated out, right? Tying into my point regarding (4) we have common sense. The Quran promotes logic and the use of reason, I doubt you would disagree with this notion. Notably:
"He gives wisdom to whom He wills, and whoever has been given wisdom has certainly been given much good. And none will remember except those of understanding."
"Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason."
[2:269 and 8:22] (Sahih International)
With this is mind...frankly, I would argue that, along the same lines of circumcision, if the consumption of stool, vomit etc was somehow not impure/bad then the Quran would state so as it only seems to be the logical thing to do to abstain from consuming such things, right? More inherantly logical than cutting off a part of our skin, atleast. On culture, every culture has good and bad elements to it, personally I don't think I know anyone, muslim or non-muslim, who seems to consume dung and animal stool (maybe some do in secret, I can't be sure I suppose) despite it not explicitly being unlawful because no one seems to regard it as "good". If that makes sense. Impure things to consume are not limited to what you listed, heck the 'list' has probably only grown over time, so naturally the principles must be applied.

@israfeel,

Fresh dates are good for you and apparently Muhammed liked and ate them.   So according to your logic, are eating dates mandated by God?

You have made statements that are clearly not true.  Instead of addressing and answering direct simple questions, you have circumbulated with your logical fallacies.   

Anyhow, you made the statement that circumcision is mandated by God.   By the way, God is also member of this forum listening and everything we say and do are indeed permanently recorded on God's tablet which we all at the end have to answer to.   God has given us a stern warning not to say "this is from God..." without knowledge, saying what our tongues make up, and imputing lies about God.   I keep that in mind.   

  I suggest that before you say anything about God you best be sure of what you are saying.  If you are a proponent of circumcision because of tradition, culture, cosmetic, medical or whatever the reasons, that's fine and none of the reasons would be contradictory to the Koran (in other words not a sin) but to say that God mandated circumcision is a lie.  It is a sin to lie about God.   

You lie about God, you bear the grave consequences.   Putting aside personal consequences, my reverence to God is such that I would not lie about God.   If I say anything that is not true, it is out of pure ignorance/lack of better understanding and when someone points out the truths or the error in my ways or understanding, I listen and think about it as surely I do not want to believe in lies told about God and to spread such lies.     

Israfeel, several people here have pointed out your logical fallicies.  You can choose to continue in your beliefs and arguing.  That is your choice.   At the end, each soul has to answer to God.  I choose to believe in the Truths and not lies.   To say that God mandated circumcision is a lie.   

Quote from: SarahY on June 14, 2013, 08:13:16 AM
No problem.

Regardless of what scholar or scholarly knowledge you follow you claim to follow the sunnah as do they (Hanafi and Malaki) yet they have different conclusions than you. This shows how you (and they) view, accept or interpret hadith is subjective. Unless you know of a none faulty methodology you'd like to share? if so, please let me know. However, if it is just following Bukhari Sharif, I'd advise you research a bit more about Imam Bukhari before accepting all his hadiths as infallible sources. Also care to share the hadith?

Hanafis, Malikis and other schools of thought teach to blindly follow their Imams, a concept which is called Taqlid. Thus those schools of thought give preference to the verdicts of jurists over and above the Hadith. On the other hand I belong to the Ahlil Hadith sect which gives preference to Hadith over the verdict of any imam or school of thought.

So there are several Ahadith which prove that circumcision is obligatory. For example the Hadith in Bukhari Sharif narrated by Abu Huraira that the Prophet peace be upon him said: "Five practices are characteristics of the Fitra: circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, cutting the moustaches short, clipping the nails, and depilating the hair of the armpits." It is interesting that Hanafis and Malikis consider all these practices as fard with exception of circumcision. But logically all of these five things should have the same ruling.

Another Hadith in Abu Dawud Sharif mentions that a person accepted Islam at the hands of the Prophet peace be upon him, who commanded him to shave off his head from the hair of disbelief and to get circumcised. Based on this Hadith if a man accepts Islam he must shave off his head and if he is uncircumcised he must get circumcised.

Another Hadith which is reported in four books of the Sihhah us Sita where the Prophet peace be upon him said that at the time of the Aqiqah of a newborn baby (on the seventh day) the harmful thing should be removed, referring to the foreskin.

Therefore based on these Ahadith it is clear that circumcision is in fact obligatory, and those who refuse circumcision are committing a sin.

Quote from: Azz on June 14, 2013, 08:19:32 AM
(1) All those can attract and maintain dirt on the body. You have already said earlier what the Quran says about physical purity.

(4) The previous point still applies...furthermore, we are to strive to keep our clothes as clean as we can:
"And your clothing purify"
"And uncleanliness avoid"
[74:4 - 74:5] (Sahih International)

Thanks for agreeing that the Quran gives general principles encouraging purity, but the details of what exactly that means are not mentioned. Now my question to you is that why you have a problem with circumcision but you agree the other things which are not mentioned in the Quran? There seems to be an inconsistency on your part. All of this only proves how much Islam is incomplete without the Hadith.

QuoteIf for some reason you're covered in animal sweat the normal thing to do would be to want to wash yourself and your clothes, I assume (more on this line of thinking at the end of the post)

You "assume"? My friend why do we have to assume? We can follow the Hadith with certainty which instructs us how to purify from these things. As I said before, Quran only gives the general principles, details are in the Hadith.

Quote2, 3, 5 are similar points so I'll  try to tackle them together if you don't mind.  Firstly and briefly, see 16:66
"And indeed, for you in grazing livestock is a lesson. We give you drink from what is in their bellies - between excretion and blood - pure milk, palatable to drinkers."
(Sahih International) (stress added by myself)

So it says milk is pure, but it never said that the cow excretion is impure. In fact only two fluids are declared impure in the Quran, wine and flowing blood. Nowhere in Quran does it say urine, stool, sperm, discharge, vomit, perspiration and saliva of various animals, etc. is impure. You can only say with certainty these things are impure if you go by the Hadith.

Now if you say it is common sense that those things are impure and should be avoided, then I also say it is common sense to do circumcision. What makes your common sense more valid than mine?

And it is true that in many cultures, especially in the West, they do weird sexual things like "golden showers" and oral sex, drinking sperm, etc., I don't want to go into the details because there may be young kids and women reading, but you know what i mean. Where in the Quran does it condemn their evil practices?

Quote from: Israfeel on June 14, 2013, 08:37:39 AM
Another Hadith in Abu Dawud Sharif mentions that a person accepted Islam at the hands of the Prophet peace be upon him, who commanded him to shave off his head from the hair of disbelief and to get circumcised. Based on this Hadith if a man accepts Islam he must shave off his head and if he is uncircumcised he must get circumcised.
Therefore based on these Ahadith it is clear that circumcision is in fact obligatory, and those who refuse circumcision are committing a sin.

Assalamu'alaikum Israfeel.

Did you realize if this forum is Quran alone forums, that means they including me intepretating Quran without hadith.
So it's pointless if you using hadith as your bases of your argument since Quran aloners reject will reject it.

As I stated in the previous post,it's pointless to do debate like this because the way of intepretating Quran by Quran alone and Sunni is differently each other .

I was former Sunni, but five month ago I joining Quran alone.If I still Sunni I will accept all madzab fiqh teaching (Hanafi, Malikis, Salafi) and all hadith you posting but now as Quran alone I will not recognize that

Quote from: justamuslim on June 14, 2013, 08:35:48 AM
@israfeel,

Fresh dates are good for you and apparently Muhammed liked and ate them.   So according to your logic, are eating dates mandated by God?

Not mandated, but it is good to eat dates. Even the Quran mentions dates many times.

QuoteAnyhow, you made the statement that circumcision is mandated by God.   By the way, God is also member of this forum listening and everything we say and do are indeed permanently recorded on God's tablet which we all at the end have to answer to.   God has given us a stern warning not to say "this is from God..." without knowledge, saying what our tongues make up, and imputing lies about God.   I keep that in mind.   

What is mandated by the Prophet peace be upon him is mandated by God "Whosoever obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah" (Surah 4:81)

Quote from: Earthdom on June 14, 2013, 08:55:30 AM
Assalamu'alaikum Israfeel.

Did you realize if this forum is Quran alone forums, that means they including me intepretating Quran without hadith.
So it's pointless if you using hadith as your bases of your argument since Quran aloners reject will reject it.

As I stated in the previous post,it's pointless to do debate like this because the way of intepretating Quran by Quran alone and Sunni is differently each other .

I was former Sunni, but five month ago I joining Quran alone.If I still Sunni I will accept all madzab fiqh teaching (Hanafi, Malikis, Salafi) and all hadith you posting but now as Quran alone I will not recognize that

If you reject Hadith and only go by Quran-alone, please answer these five questions:

1. Going by this line of reasoning, removal of pubic hair, armpit hair, and trimming of fingernails and toenails when they become long or dirty are not mentioned in the Holy Quran either. Therefore, according to Hadith rejectors, will such people who do not remove pubic hair, armpit hair, nails, etc., be considered as sinful or not? Western and non-Muslim people do not remove pubic hair/armpit hair, do Hadith rejectors follow their culture also since it is not forbidden in Quran?

2. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, stool, maniyy, madhiyy (seminal fluid), vomit, is impure. According to Hadith-rejectors will a person be sinful if he does not wash off these things from his body or clothes?

3. According to Hadith-rejectors, will a person be sinful for (God forbid) drinking these things which are not explicitly declared impure in the Quran, as this is the culture of many Westerners/non-Muslims?

4. According to the Quran, the meat of swine is forbidden, but nowhere in the Quran does it say that the perspiration or saliva of swine, or any other animal for that matter, is impure. If these things get onto the clothes or body of a Hadith-rejector, will he be sinful for not washing them off, or praying while traces of a pig's saliva or perspiration is on his body and/or clothes?

5. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, dung, or seminal fluid of any animal is impure. Are these things halal for Hadith-rejectors, and will a Hadith rejector be sinful for touching, drinking, or not removing these traces from his body and clothes?

Quote from: Israfeel on June 14, 2013, 08:37:39 AM
Therefore based on these Ahadith it is clear that circumcision is in fact obligatory, and those who refuse circumcision are committing a sin.

Per God, those who follow other than the Koran are astray.   Those who distort, twist God's words, imputing lies about God are committing a sin.   

According to your hadiths, circumcision may be obligatory.  But not according to God.   You are committing a sin by telling lies about God.   Israfeel, you will at the end have to answer to God of what you say.  I suggest that you think about what you are saying and doing.  One sure way of securing yourself a spot in hell is to spread lies about God.

Salamun'alaikum Israfeel

Ok I will answer you questions

First I don't understand your english, maybe you aren't english speaker.

My answer is simple:If it's not in the Quran then it's not Allah's commandment

Because :

45:6 These are the revelations of God, We recite them to you with the truth. So, in which narrative after God and His revelations do
they believe?

77:50 So in what narrative, after it, will they believe?

See the blue word is حَدِيثٍ in the Mushaf,

This mean like this

77.50 So in what hadis, after it, will they believe?

So the Sunnah/hadith is Quran itself, not anything else.And there is verse which order us not to following hadith beside Quran even Prophet Muhammad was ordered the same.

69:40 This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
69:41 It is not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
69:42 Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.
69:43 A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
69:44 And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
69:45 We would have seized him by the right.
69:46 Then, We would have severed his life-line

Quote from: Israfeel on June 14, 2013, 08:58:18 AM

What is mandated by the Prophet peace be upon him is mandated by God "Whosoever obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah" (Surah 4:81)

The only "mandate" that prophet Muhammed gave was to follow the Koran.   

Peace,

Who needs hadith to understand the impure nature of urine or any other thing like this?

God bless you

Quote from: Earthdom on June 14, 2013, 09:17:30 AM
Salamun'alaikum Israfeel

Ok I will answer you questions

First I don't understand your english, maybe you aren't english speaker.

My answer is simple:If it's not in the Quran then it's not Allah's commandment

So for you it is not haram to do any of the things i asked in my five questions:

Quote1. Going by this line of reasoning, removal of pubic hair, armpit hair, and trimming of fingernails and toenails when they become long or dirty are not mentioned in the Holy Quran either. Therefore, according to Hadith rejectors, will such people who do not remove pubic hair, armpit hair, nails, etc., be considered as sinful or not? Western and non-Muslim people do not remove pubic hair/armpit hair, do Hadith rejectors follow their culture also since it is not forbidden in Quran?

2. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, stool, maniyy, madhiyy (seminal fluid), vomit, is impure. According to Hadith-rejectors will a person be sinful if he does not wash off these things from his body or clothes?

3. According to Hadith-rejectors, will a person be sinful for (God forbid) drinking these things which are not explicitly declared impure in the Quran, as this is the culture of many Westerners/non-Muslims?

4. According to the Quran, the meat of swine is forbidden, but nowhere in the Quran does it say that the perspiration or saliva of swine, or any other animal for that matter, is impure. If these things get onto the clothes or body of a Hadith-rejector, will he be sinful for not washing them off, or praying while traces of a pig's saliva or perspiration is on his body and/or clothes?

5. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, dung, or seminal fluid of any animal is impure. Are these things halal for Hadith-rejectors, and will a Hadith rejector be sinful for touching, drinking, or not removing these traces from his body and clothes?

As Quran says "Laakum Deenukum Waliya Deen"

Quote from: Israfeel on June 14, 2013, 10:00:46 AM
So for you it is not haram to do any of the things i asked in my five questions:

I'm not saying haram, but it's not in the Quran it means it's not wajib to do it.
So you follow it or not, it's not important.

Quote from: Israfeel on June 14, 2013, 10:00:46 AM
As Quran says "Laakum Deenukum Waliya Deen"

Of course, it's mine deen, it's your deen.It's my tafseer and it's your tafseer.We're different ways of tafseer from the start.

Israfeel, I don't consider crcumcision an impure act comparable to the consumption of vile fluids. I said before that I'm indifferent to circumcision itself - if you feel that you will physically be more pure if you are circumcized, you are free to hold that view and I have no qualms with it, as stated before I feel it is "a very minor issue" that we must use our own intelligence to judge. What I'm arguing against is the notion that circumcision is mandatory.

The assumption point was in regards to my whole common sense rant at the end of the post, my apologies for wording and structuring my post as terribly as I did there.

Wasn't aware you were referring to sexual acts, my bad. Not really an area of expertise for me, though I know that the 3rd example you gave is supposed to have serious health risks, and that the 2nd example, interpretations vary between the different madhabs and stuff but generally it is looked down on somewhat due to also having some risks to health. Those two should really explain themselves, the "drinking sperm" example especially so I'd think. I'm not particularly sure what to say about "golden showers". I would assume it also has health risks but I'm not an expert I suppose, I couldn't say for sure. Regardless, considering how prevalent the theme of spiritual and physical purity is within the Quran, I don't see how such an act, which seems to be irrelevant to "sex" the act itself - would not be frowned upon. It sounds like such a minor act, again something one must use our own intelligence to judge.

Quote from: Azz on June 14, 2013, 11:09:35 AM
Israfeel, I don't consider crcumcision an impure act comparable to the consumption of vile fluids. I said before that I'm indifferent to circumcision itself - if you feel that you will physically be more pure if you are circumcized, you are free to hold that view and I have no qualms with it, as stated before I feel it is "a very minor issue" that we must use our own intelligence to judge. What I'm arguing against is the notion that circumcision is mandatory.

The assumption point was in regards to my whole common sense rant at the end of the post, my apologies for wording and structuring my post as terribly as I did there.

Wasn't aware you were referring to sexual acts, my bad. Not really an area of expertise for me, though I know that the 3rd example you gave is supposed to have serious health risks, and that the 2nd example, interpretations vary between the different madhabs and stuff but generally it is looked down on somewhat due to also having some risks to health. Those two should really explain themselves, the "drinking sperm" example especially so I'd think. I'm not particularly sure what to say about "golden showers". I would assume it also has health risks but I'm not an expert I suppose, I couldn't say for sure. Regardless, considering how prevalent the theme of spiritual and physical purity is within the Quran, I don't see how such an act, which seems to be irrelevant to "sex" the act itself - would not be frowned upon. It sounds like such a minor act, again something one must use our own intelligence to judge.

Well when you argue against circumcision being mandatory simply because it is not mentioned in the Quran apart from general principles of being clean, then the same line of reasoning means you cannot declare things like golden showers, women swallowing sperm, people growing out their pubic and armpit hairs, intercourse through back passage, as being HARAM.

You can "frown" on all these things as much as you want. But from a purely Quranic point of view, all of these things are never censured.

The point I'm trying to make is that by only going by Quran you leave a lot of controversial issues open to interpretation and dispute. Even if you personally don't approve of these things, if a Quranist does them and even says there's no problem with it, you as a Quranist cannot argue with him.

Therefore I invite you to come back to the traditional Islam with Sunnah and Hadith. You say Quran is always encouraging intellect and rational thinking....well my rational thinking is always telling me Islam will be a mockery without Hadith.

Quote from: Israfeel on June 14, 2013, 11:15:58 AM
Therefore I invite you to come back to the traditional Islam with Sunnah and Hadith. You say Quran is always encouraging intellect and rational thinking....well my rational thinking is always telling me Islam will be a mockery without Hadith.

Hadiths - stories told by Abu huraira and company are a mockery of Islam.   What you are doing is inviting people to come back to believing in lies about prophets and God by Abu Huraira and his likes.  sorry, but I decline your invitation. 

What you have shown is your fallacies, making inaccurate statements whilst remaining silent when called out. 

Again, if you wish to persist in your beliefs and views making untrue statements about God, that is your choice and to God you shall answer to.   I suggest that you follow the Koran only asking God for guidance in seeking knowledge and understanding. 

Israfeel.

I know the concept of Taqleed, however none of those scholars said to blindly follow them.

So you follow your own hawa to conclude which hadith to follow. So in actual fact you follow your own taqleed of the hadith. Hadith has been investigated in the past, yet you BLINDLY ALED (blindly follow, do your taqlid to the 6 hadith books). Where is your evidence that these books are authentic and infallible?

The hadiths you state do not claim circumcision is obligatory.[/u]So who are you fooling? They merely claim it in positive light. Furthermore there are hadiths which discuss men who lead prayer who are circumcised or uncircumcised, a circumcised is preferred. So really that is proof that it is not obligated. Moreover you mention the aqiqa of the baby. Nowhere have I read that hadith so if you can reference it that would be good. However I have read on the 7th day of the newborns Hassan and Hussain were circumcised.

Therefore based on hadith there is clear evidence that none of the sahaba nor the  prophet claimed it as obligatory. Based on hadith it shows it is a commendable act and some people did it. Therefore to make a thing a Fard (an obligation) when it is not obligated is a sin, as Allah is the law maker not you, not hadith and not noone.

You seem to argue that hadith can only guide you into how to be clean you seem to totally dismiss Quran. You think God is incapable? how offensive.

Your logic is flawed let me show you some examples:

QuoteQuote
1. Going by this line of reasoning, removal of pubic hair, armpit hair, and trimming of fingernails and toenails when they become long or dirty are not mentioned in the Holy Quran either. Therefore, according to Hadith rejectors, will such people who do not remove pubic hair, armpit hair, nails, etc., be considered as sinful or not? Western and non-Muslim people do not remove pubic hair/armpit hair, do Hadith rejectors follow their culture also since it is not forbidden in Quran?

There is no wrong in culture so long as it does not contradict Quran. many western and non muslim people remove pubic hairs etc you can't speak for all people. Removing pubic hair, cutting nails etc is not sinful because Allah did not say it was. Unless you want to prove otherwise??? So don't make a claim unless you have proof.

Quote2. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, stool, maniyy, madhiyy (seminal fluid), vomit, is impure. According to Hadith-rejectors will a person be sinful if he does not wash off these things from his body or clothes?

According to the Quran God tells us how to be pure during Salat, and God outlines the things which we need to purify i.e. having a bath, i.e. if you go to the toilet (urine/stool), sexual intercourse etc. So we do know based on the Quran that certain fluids need to be cleansed to be considered clean. Take for example 4:43.

Quote3. According to Hadith-rejectors, will a person be sinful for (God forbid) drinking these things which are not explicitly declared impure in the Quran, as this is the culture of many Westerners/non-Muslims?

Why would someone drink impurity? How explicit do you need something? Do you need Allah to tell you in the Quran that urine is impure you must not drink it? based on your logic God is incapable of explaining our deen, Auothobillah.

Quote4. According to the Quran, the meat of swine is forbidden, but nowhere in the Quran does it say that the perspiration or saliva of swine, or any other animal for that matter, is impure. If these things get onto the clothes or body of a Hadith-rejector, will he be sinful for not washing them off, or praying while traces of a pig's saliva or perspiration is on his body and/or clothes?

Use your brain. Firstly how often will someone be in contact with swine? And pray? Your cases are pathetic. What if someone didn't know they had traces of anything on them? are they constantly sinning? what if they were poor and they can only live in a swinehouse are they just impure?

Quote5. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, dung, or seminal fluid of any animal is impure. Are these things halal for Hadith-rejectors, and will a Hadith rejector be sinful for touching, drinking, or not removing these traces from his body and clothes?

Read verses 5:6, 4:43 in ways we are told to be purified. And you will learn that urine, dung seminal fluid is not a characteristic a person enjoining a state of purification. If you can not understand that, I can?t help you. So do not pick and choose and claim what the Quran has and doesn't have if you have not read it.

You cannot halel and harem (make permissible and make unlawful)  to your own whims and desires, do not misunderstand people based on your own ignorance, understanding and flawed logic. Try and think of the other person's perspective rather than "you vs them".

salam. 

Quote from: SarahY on June 14, 2013, 08:33:32 PM
Israfeel.

I know the concept of Taqleed, however none of those scholars said to blindly follow them.

I agree. Which is why I don't blindly follow the scholars. I follow the Prophet (Sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) and his Hadith.

QuoteSo you follow your own hawa to conclude which hadith to follow. So in actual fact you follow your own taqleed of the hadith. Hadith has been investigated in the past, yet you BLINDLY ALED (blindly follow, do your taqlid to the 6 hadith books). Where is your evidence that these books are authentic and infallible?

Good question. I don't blindly follow the books, I follow (Itteba) the Hadith which is proven to be authentically said by our Prophet Sallallaahu alayhi wasallam, based on its chain of narration.

By the way, in case you don't know, this is also how the Quran has been transmitted, through chains of narration. The Quran wasn't dropped from the sky or brought down on the wings of Angels from Heaven. It was revealed on the tongue of the Prophet peace be upon him and conveyed to us through his companions exactly the same like Hadith.

QuoteThe hadiths you state do not claim circumcision is obligatory.[/u]So who are you fooling? They merely claim it in positive light. Furthermore there are hadiths which discuss men who lead prayer who are circumcised or uncircumcised, a circumcised is preferred. So really that is proof that it is not obligated. Moreover you mention the aqiqa of the baby. Nowhere have I read that hadith so if you can reference it that would be good. However I have read on the 7th day of the newborns Hassan and Hussain were circumcised.

The Hadith I quoted from Bukhari Sharif is very clear that circumcision is obligatory. It is one of the five characteristics of the Fitra, all five of them are considered obligatory.

QuoteTherefore based on hadith there is clear evidence that none of the sahaba nor the  prophet claimed it as obligatory. Based on hadith it shows it is a commendable act and some people did it. Therefore to make a thing a Fard (an obligation) when it is not obligated is a sin, as Allah is the law maker not you, not hadith and not noone.

Wrong, it is obligatory as proven from the Hadith in Bukhari Sharif.

QuoteYou seem to argue that hadith can only guide you into how to be clean you seem to totally dismiss Quran. You think God is incapable? how offensive.

Well if you dismiss Hadith then you have no cleanliness, because Quran doesnt mention directly about circumcision, what is impure, how to remove unclean hair, what animals are unclean, how to remove impurity from clothes, how to clean dishes licked by unclean animals or which contained alcohol or unclean meat, what kind of water is pure and how much amount of water you need to ensure its purity, etc.

None of this is in Quran, you have to get it from Hadith. So in other words if you reject Hadith you have no Islam left.

Peace,

You need no scriptural information to understand simple things are clean or unclean. I would not like to hug a sheep and go and pray straight afterwards (unless the sheep would be washed prior to it).

Clean dishes licked by unclean animal? How about wash them?

Which water is clean? Well, I think someone with average intellect can work that out.

How to remove "unclean" hair? How about using the modern invention "the razor blade"? I use my trimmer.

Dishes which used to contain alcohol? What a question. When do you have this issue?

Remove impurity from clothes? Well, modern detergents work fine on most stains. If not, there are some tricks (which are not from hadith).

I swear you can have fine cleanliness without hadith. Common sense works the trick. Rational and logical thinking is a winning combination.

You are a little wrong, without hadith you have the islam as intended by God. If you merely think about your hygiene you will see yourself when you are unclean. Consider when you talk about raised awareness. God will bless you with Wisdom and Knowledge and hence help you along the way if you have Faith in Him.

And lastly, circumcision is destroying what God created. It is removing a working organ. I am sure it entered the Jewish faith and later contaminated islam too. Circumcision is mentioned in the Torah.

But circumcising a full grown man, is that not torture if you have no anesthesia?

There is also mentioned in the Bible to circumcise your heart as far as I can recall. I think it is an ancient misunderstanding with dire consequences. I think people used the scripture to twist God's words, just as you say about hadith. Hadith is twisting God's words by adding strange procedures and rituals. In what hadith do you believe other than God's hadith (Quran)?

God bless you

Quote from: Man of Faith on June 13, 2013, 02:33:23 PM
Peace,

Circumcision is just a fake rule. It originates from the passages of the Old Testament. Being circumcised means minimal benefits and a lot of disadvantages. The only benefit I think of is that it may be easier to clean yourself after a toilet visit, but otherwise you have cut off a part of the bodily defense. Yes, the foreskin is there for a reason, God created it that way or else He would not have placed it there in the first place if it was to be surgically removed. The pleasure while in intercourse is also adversely affected.

Removing the foreskin is a very painful process even while sedated and I can guess what an experience it would have been for the alleged removal of Ibrahim's foreskin in adult age according to the Old Testament. Probably this procedure is rather a lie since I doubt God would order everyone to surgically remove their foreskin. Maybe it is an error in the translation.

Circumcision is not mentioned even once in Quran. And was it that important the Quran would have mentioned it or at least hinted at it.

Go against the practices of Ibrahim or Muhammad? The only scriptural evidence is from the Bible. Is that a reliable source when it comes to such drastical procedures?

And please do not mention hadith, because that is just not a viable source of information.

It seems against all logic to surgically remove something.

God bless you

If circumcision has no advantages than why so many people in the west are doing this, btw they are not muslims or jews? Name me those "disadvantages" if there are any?

Quote from: Man of Faith on June 15, 2013, 01:25:30 AM
Peace,

You need no scriptural information to understand simple things are clean or unclean. I would not like to hug a sheep and go and pray straight afterwards (unless the sheep would be washed prior to it).

Clean dishes licked by unclean animal? How about wash them?

Which water is clean? Well, I think someone with average intellect can work that out.

How to remove "unclean" hair? How about using the modern invention "the razor blade"? I use my trimmer.

Dishes which used to contain alcohol? What a question. When do you have this issue?

Remove impurity from clothes? Well, modern detergents work fine on most stains. If not, there are some tricks (which are not from hadith).

My question is that if a person does not do these things, according to the Quran is he sinful or not? I would like an answer from Quran only, not your opinion. If you follow Quran only then answer must be from Quran.

QuoteAnd lastly, circumcision is destroying what God created.

QuoteCircumcision is mentioned in the Torah.

If circumcision is "destroying" what God created, then why is it mentioned in the Torah? Did you know that the Quran says Torah is revealed by Allah and Quran is confirming it? In fact, circumcision is the Sunnah of Prophet Ebrahim alayhis salam and practiced by all the Prophets and their followers.

Since Hadith rejectors don't practice circumcision, this proves that they are outside of Millat Ebrahim.

You claim to follow the prophet based on apparent hadith which is proven to be authentic based on a chain of transmission, according to who??. I guess that just proves your lack of knowledge on the matter. Ahadith authenticity is pretty much focused on a chain however content is important but I guess the dirawaya isn?t significant to you if you choose to only follow a chain then I guess you?re knowledge is limited.

I recommend reading: http://www.scribd.com/doc/119660399

Then if you want to discuss about hadith, we can discuss in another section.

In any case if you don?t know, Quran was written before the prophet died. Read your sources about suhoof alquran.

The hadith you quote is not clear that circumcision is obligatory, it just mentions characteristics of fitra, not that it is obligated, there is a difference. Moreover it doesn?t specify men or women. So unless you think the ruling is purely for men only where is your evidence? What is your proof? 

QuoteWrong, it is obligatory as proven from the Hadith in Bukhari Sharif.

Wrong, you mentioned a hadith but no proof where it says it is obligated. Where is the proof that the hadith says it is obligated? This discussion is about the principle of halal and haram. Not your interpretations. If you said you followed the hadith because it was a sunnah that would have been accurate but no you said it?s obligated. Can you see the principle?

QuoteWell if you dismiss Hadith then you have no cleanliness, because Quran doesnt mention directly about circumcision, what is impure, how to remove unclean hair, what animals are unclean, how to remove impurity from clothes, how to clean dishes licked by unclean animals or which contained alcohol or unclean meat, what kind of water is pure and how much amount of water you need to ensure its purity, etc.

None of this is in Quran, you have to get it from Hadith. So in other words if you reject Hadith you have no Islam left.

No you?re extrapolating your own conclusions.

Firstly if someone removes ?unclean hair? ?removes impurity from clothes?  is circumcised etc etc etc Yet they do this out of their understanding of what is clean/beneficial. Do you still see them as unclean? That means according to your logic they have accepted islam, because you say if you reject such hadith you have left islam. See how irrational your logic is?

Another thing, you will not find everything you want to know in hadith, why do you think fatawa exist?

You do not have to learn how to be clean from hadith and it?s not your place to judge who has or hasn?t left islam.

There are benefits to circumcision but there is no obligation mentioned by God and if you disagree with that, then I guess we have different views.

The principle is that you can?t obligate a thing God has not made an obligation. You have made your own deductions and concluded it is purity/cleanliness etc so you did it, that?s fine but don?t go on making it an obligation upon everyone. Many people have been circumcised even those that claim to follow the Quran-Alone and there are traditional sunnis that do not circumcise.

if your understanding is based on hadith, based on torah or whatever else. That is your conclusion but you cannot expect to force it upon another. Ultimately you will be judged on your own deeds. you can put your evidence forth and others can put there's.

Quote from: SarahY on June 15, 2013, 02:23:02 AM
You claim to follow the prophet based on apparent hadith which is proven to be authentic based on a chain of transmission, according to who??

According to the evidence. And the Quran says to verify news that is brought to you. This is the whole basis of the Hadith science known as Ilm ul Rijaal and Jarh wat Tadeel, about verifying the credibility of the narrators. The Hadith science is in fact the pride of Islam since no other religion can verify the credibility of the writers and narrators of their scriptures.

But Alhamdulillah we can read the biography and history of each and every narrator of authentic Hadith and see if he is a truthful person. Therefore we are follow Hadith based on evidence and not blind following. Unlike you who follow the Quran but have no proof that Quran is the word of God.

QuoteIn any case if you don?t know, Quran was written before the prophet died.

Where's your proof? Show me a manuscript of the complete Quran which is dated before the year 633 CE.

QuoteThe hadith you quote is not clear that circumcision is obligatory, it just mentions characteristics of fitra, not that it is obligated, there is a difference. Moreover it doesn?t specify men or women. So unless you think the ruling is purely for men only where is your evidence? What is your proof? 

Fitra means something which is natural. Other Hadith show that going against the Fitra is haram. And the Hadith is general, so it applies to women with regard to removing unclean hair, cutting nails, etc. However, there are some parts of the Hadith which are obviously only for men. For example:

'A'isha reported: The Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) said: Ten are the acts according to fitra: clipping the moustache, letting the beard grow, using the tooth-stick, snuffing water in the nose, cutting the nails, washing the finger joints, plucking the hair under the armpits, shaving the pubes and cleaning one's private parts with water. The narrator said: I have forgotten the tenth, but it may have been rinsing the mouth. (Sahih Muslim)

Now the trimming mustache and letting beard grow obviously only apply to men since women dont have mustache or beard. As for circumcision, there is difference of opinion if it is necessary for women. But other Hadith show that even women should be circumcised but it is not obligatory only recommended.

QuoteFirstly if someone removes ?unclean hair? ?removes impurity from clothes?  is circumcised etc etc etc Yet they do this out of their understanding of what is clean/beneficial. Do you still see them as unclean? That means according to your logic they have accepted islam, because you say if you reject such hadith you have left islam. See how irrational your logic is?

Well as the Hadith says these things are part of the Fitra, meaning a  person will naturally want to do this whether he is Muslim or not. However, many people who are ignorant and dont follow Islam do not keep clean and go against the Hadith. They don't get circumcised, they dont remove pubic hair, they dont remove armpit hairs, they keep long mustaches, and they don't clean their private parts with water (use toilet paper only like most Western people). So these ignorant and unclean people need Islam to guide them, and they will only get this correct guidance if they read Hadith because Quran doesnt mention these things.

QuoteAnother thing, you will not find everything you want to know in hadith, why do you think fatawa exist?

Well a Fatwa is a ruling based on Quran and Hadith applying to a particular case. But if a Fatwa goes against Hadith it must be rejected.

QuoteThere are benefits to circumcision but there is no obligation mentioned by God and if you disagree with that, then I guess we have different views.

If circumcision is beneficial as you confess, then why doesnt God obligate it?

Quote from: Israfeel on June 14, 2013, 06:42:22 AM
Here are a few questions I have for Hadith rejectors who say that since circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran, it is not necessary:

1. Going by this line of reasoning, removal of pubic hair, armpit hair, and trimming of fingernails and toenails when they become long or dirty are not mentioned in the Holy Quran either. Therefore, according to Hadith rejectors, will such people who do not remove pubic hair, armpit hair, nails, etc., be considered as sinful or not? Western and non-Muslim people do not remove pubic hair/armpit hair, do Hadith rejectors follow their culture also since it is not forbidden in Quran?

2. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, stool, maniyy, madhiyy (seminal fluid), vomit, is impure. According to Hadith-rejectors will a person be sinful if he does not wash off these things from his body or clothes?

3. According to Hadith-rejectors, will a person be sinful for (God forbid) drinking these things which are not explicitly declared impure in the Quran, as this is the culture of many Westerners/non-Muslims?

4. According to the Quran, the meat of swine is forbidden, but nowhere in the Quran does it say that the perspiration or saliva of swine, or any other animal for that matter, is impure. If these things get onto the clothes or body of a Hadith-rejector, will he be sinful for not washing them off, or praying while traces of a pig's saliva or perspiration is on his body and/or clothes?

5. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, dung, or seminal fluid of any animal is impure. Are these things halal for Hadith-rejectors, and will a Hadith rejector be sinful for touching, drinking, or not removing these traces from his body and clothes?

If you reject circumcision and say it is not mentioned in the Quran, then how will you answer the above five questions?

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Then how will you answer this question?

1. In the book of gossips there's a suggestion to eat flies, will you do it?
2. In the book of gossips there's a suggestion to drink Camel's urine, will you do it?
3. Nowhere in the Quran or book of gossips any mention of forbidding eating the flesh of non-muslim / your vanquished enemy / the kuffars, thus it's not forbidden and 'cannibalism' is endorsed?

And the list can goes on and on and on..

Quote from: Israfeel on June 15, 2013, 02:56:52 AM
According to the evidence. And the Quran says to verify news that is brought to you. This is the whole basis of the Hadith science known as Ilm ul Rijaal and Jarh wat Tadeel, about verifying the credibility of the narrators. The Hadith science is in fact the pride of Islam since no other religion can verify the credibility of the writers and narrators of their scriptures.

But Alhamdulillah we can read the biography and history of each and every narrator of authentic Hadith and see if he is a truthful person. Therefore we are follow Hadith based on evidence and not blind following. Unlike you who follow the Quran but have no proof that Quran is the word of God.

Do you know when the hadiths being written?

Example:
According to your dad, your deceased great grandpa saith "My wife is a bitch!"

How can you verify the credibility of rumors / gossips when the source of the rumor / gossip has been dead?

Unless Ouija board or other means of 'talking to the dead' is considered as 'valid techniques'..  :rotfl:

Quote
'A'isha reported: The Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) said: Ten are the acts according to fitra: clipping the moustache, letting the beard grow, using the tooth-stick, snuffing water in the nose, cutting the nails, washing the finger joints, plucking the hair under the armpits, shaving the pubes and cleaning one's private parts with water. The narrator said: I have forgotten the tenth, but it may have been rinsing the mouth. (Sahih Muslim)

No toothpaste here... brushing your teeth using a toothpaste is HARAM and sinful act!  :rotfl:

Quote from: Jafar on June 15, 2013, 03:04:41 AM
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

QuoteThen how will you answer this question?

1. In the book of gossips there's a suggestion to eat flies, will you do it?
2. In the book of gossips there's a suggestion to drink Camel's urine, will you do it?

What sit he book of gossips?

By the way no Hadith mentions to eat flies or drink camel urine. The Hadith about camel urine is taken out of context. Ive already explained that elsewhere. In fact Hadith makes it clear to stay away from all urine which is impure.

Quote3. Nowhere in the Quran or book of gossips any mention of forbidding eating the flesh of non-muslim / your vanquished enemy / the kuffars, thus it's not forbidden and 'cannibalism' is endorsed?

Yes nowhere in the Quran. This why you need Hadith :)
Hadith explicitly forbid cannibalism. One Hadith says its forbidden to eat any creature that has canines (humans have canines) and another Hadith states it forbidden to even break the bones of a dead person - so how to eat it?

But nowhere in Quran is cannibalism forbidden. This why you need Hadith.

Quote from: Jafar on June 15, 2013, 03:13:15 AM
Do you know when the hadiths being written?

Example:
According to your dad, your deceased great grandpa saith "My wife is a bitch!"

What your mother was my great grandpa's wife?

QuoteHow can you verify the credibility of rumors / gossips when the source of the rumor / gossip has been dead?

Rumors and gossip is not the same as verified transmissions which are corroborated. Otherwise all witness testimony should be dismissed from courts of law as mere rumors and gossip.

Quote
No toothpaste here... brushing your teeth using a toothpaste is HARAM and sinful act!  :rotfl:

Where in the Quran it says to use toothpaste or even clean your teeth? Answer: Nowhere

So if you follow Quran only, you never have to

a. be circumcised

b. remove your pubic hair

c. wash yourself after answering call of nature

d. wash dishes which were used by dogs and other animals

e. clean your teeth

f. wash hands before eating

g. donkey is not haram to eat (Quran only people should eat donkey kebabs)

h. insects and vermin are not haram

i. crow is not haram according to Quran only (Quran only people eat kava biryani)

j. Quran only people allowed to drink urine, eat feces, swallow sperm

k. Quran only people allowed to do anal sex

So the Quran-only people are the biggest joke of humanity

Peace Sonny,

I have no clue why they do it, and I do not care why they did it either. There are many disadvantages of circumcision. I mentioned a few in earlier posts. I know myself since I am.

Peace Israfeel,

The Torah is the Law brought by Moses and much of the literature found in the bundle you call Torah is added hadith. The discussion here is not the nature of he Torah, though I have much to say about it and I have said many things in past threads.

Excuse me, but you come with irrelevant input. The Quran tells you to be clean and pure and an average person would know ways to keep clean. Need no book for that.

You would be able to determine if you are clean or not on your own.

The ideas you have extracted from your hadith are ideas of some person, not God. Most ideas are hardly from a prophet's ways but inventions of people who wanted to seem important.

Do you deem how many stones a man should use to wipe his ass relevant to your salvation?

And many other completely irrelevant input and semi-relevant input an average blessed person could work out on his own.

Relying on hadith just shows you cannot trust your own brain and thus not trust God. Quran warns you that if you follow the majority of all people they will drive you astray. And most people who believe do not do so without committing idol worship.

If you know what is a majority then you should only follow God's own hadith, the Quran. It is the safest bet. What other hadith do you believe in?

Now I did not intend to write such a long response to things I consider blasphemies, but I suppose God's inspiration pushes me. If you do not choose to change your ways I will let you have your system and I will stick to mine. I will try to treat you with respect and dignity despite our incompatible nature.

You say I do not follow the ways of Ibrahim. Well, have your opinion, it belongs with you, but I follow the example of him and every other prophet and blessed man ever lived. I follow the peaceful and truthful nature of their worship of the one God. If you read Quran you will understand why God deemed Ibrahim to be a good example, and it was not mainly due to his cleanliness. If you read the Quran with a clear mind you will see that it was due to His devoted and sincere worship of God without associating any partners with Him. And he was a very kind and islamic (peaceful) person.

I do not follow rules and restrictions which would only draw my attention away from the One who sent me. I follow God's sunnah and I am mindful of Him every moment of my life. I trust His guidance and that He will have me do the most righteous choice. He has given me Knowledge and Wisdom without that I have taken any spectacular look at hadith ever in my life.

Will you choose to obey the ideas of men it is up to you, but I will not.

What was revealed to Moses were the Ten Commandments or the mosaic law on stone tablets. That was the Message or kitab you are looking for. I did not intend to say this, but I did anyways. There is just hadith/hearsay or man-made recordings which are scrolls which were assembled into the Torah or Bible we have today.

Jesus followed the Mosaic law, but showed that common sense should also be used when interpreting it. Jesus never wrote a book, it was his disciples that recorded his life.

The only physical book that ever came down was Quran, the only exact wordings of God, except those inscriptions on stone tablets to Moses which seem to be long gone.

What do I choose to follow? Well, I follow the Mosaic law (Ten Commandments), the Gospel (Jesus was always special) and Quran. The rest are unreliable stories which can be used to find inspiration at best.

The spirit of Ibrahim lives on in Quran, the Old Testament is too unreliable for any sustained knowledge-seeking. Same goes for Muhammad in my world. They all live on in my Quran.

If there is something I would be curious about I open the Bible and read a little, but then I have to use my brain and it is not always true since many men added their words. There has been research conducted on the Bible which shows its corruption and biased changes done to it. You have to "read between the lines" to find the true Message. The Quran can pretty much be read without suspicion or fear of being deceived except from traditional misinterpretations.

Hadith is synonymous in English as hearsay which is recorded on paper. If you only knew the corrupting nature of men you would immediately understand lots of the literature out there contains immense masses of false portrayals of the famous faces ever lived. No other source can be trusted 100% except the Quran. Still it comes down to the interpretation of the 1400 year old scripture and we can barely even trust that without seeking enlightenment from God.

Why then believe in man-made conjecture about the same age minus 200-400 years? Some Truth may exist in it, but how can you prove it to be true? Especially when the Quran does not mention a word about it or even hint at it.

Keeping clean comes down to the discretion of the individual and an average blessed person who is not mentally disabled can work it out on his own. God said: "Stay pure and clean". The reverent believer will obey and do what he can to stay clean and retain a pure heart. You can use modern ways now that we live in the 21st century, you do not need to follow practices from the dark ages as long as the result is the same.

You do the same mistake as all people have done before the Messengers came and admonished the people. They did literal interpretation of what they had and they did not use their brains.

Please excuse me if what I wrote is provoking any frustration. Please reply with something that makes sense and not some parroting words. When it comes down to it all, we shall worship the one who sent us and not follow the vain ideas of people who existed before us. Follow the Quran and follow the example of those righteous before you, worship God alone and do not add any man-made conjecture to it.

Thanks, that was all from me for the moment.

God bless you

Peace Israfeel,

The answer would be no to all or most of what you listed. Please, use your brain. It is common sense that they are things we would not do.

And to put the "thing" up someone's ass is just silly talking. Then you would get shit on your Johnson.

Still, it gives absolutely no reason to open a hadith book. Not at all.

Please, you shall not be so insulting, especially not on baseless grounds.

God bless you

Quote from: Man of Faith on June 15, 2013, 04:32:34 AM
Peace Israfeel,

The answer would be no to all or most of what you listed. Please, use your brain. It is common sense that they are things we would not do.

And to put the "thing" up someone's ass is just silly talking. Then you would get shit on your Johnson.

Still, it gives absolutely no reason to open a hadith book. Not at all.

Please, you shall not be so insulting, especially not on baseless grounds.

God bless you

Again, this is your opinion. You say you follow Quran, and only Quran is reliable as the Word of God. So please tell me where in the Quran.

After all, if Hadith has no value, then neither your opinion has any value. We should only know what Quran says. So please tell me where does Quran forbid anal sex? In fact Quran says to approach your wife however you want. Also, read my signature, I have quoted a Quran-only woman on this forum "Justamuslim", she says that anal sex is okay and swallowing sperm is okay. And she is a Quran-only woman.

Now let me tell you that our Hadith following women would never write such shameful things. They would die of shame before they could write what this Quran-only woman wrote so casually for the whole world to see. Something to think about.

Quote from: Man of Faith on June 15, 2013, 04:25:52 AM
Peace Israfeel,

Excuse me, but you come with irrelevant input. The Quran tells you to be clean and pure and an average person would know ways to keep clean. Need no book for that.

So no need for the Quran to tell us how to be clean. Then why are you Quran-only people against circumcision? The reason is because you are saying circumcision is not in the Quran. Look how you are contradicting yourself. Circumcision is essential for cleanliness and purity, but still you people are against it?

Quote
The only physical book that ever came down was Quran, the only exact wordings of God, except those inscriptions on stone tablets to Moses which seem to be long gone.

What about the Suhufi Ebrahim wa Mousa (the Scrolls of Abraham and Moses)? Suhuf (plural of Sahifah) is physical paper and scrolls.

QuoteWhat do I choose to follow? Well, I follow the Mosaic law (Ten Commandments),

You follow the Ten Commandments? Do you keep the Sabbath? Also do you know that the Mosaic Law of the Ten Commandments also has punishments for breaking the commandments? One of the Commandments is "Thou shalt not make any graven image", yet Quran-only people say having pictures of people and animals is allowed. Also if you break some of the Ten Commandments like violate the Sabbath, dishonor your parents, commit adultery, or worship an idol - the punishment is to be stoned to death. But Quran-only people say stoning to death is against Quran.

So the reality is that you do not follow the Ten Commandments. You only follow your personal interpretation of the Quran to suit your desires and modern Western culture.

QuoteThe spirit of Ibrahim lives on in Quran, the Old Testament is too unreliable for any sustained knowledge-seeking. Same goes for Muhammad in my world. They all live on in my Quran.

What is the proof that Quran is reliable and other books are not? The earliest complete manuscript of the Quran is from centuries after the Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) death.

So if you say Old Testament, Bible, Gospel, and Hadith are unreliable, you must also admit that the Quran is unreliable also.

Peace Israfeel.

You must also read brother Man of Faith posts in here, because he is a mualaf and of course know about Bible teaching more than you.

Quote from: Israfeel on June 15, 2013, 03:32:35 AM
So if you follow Quran only, you never have to

a. be circumcised

b. remove your pubic hair

c. wash yourself after answering call of nature

d. wash dishes which were used by dogs and other animals

e. clean your teeth

f. wash hands before eating

g. donkey is not haram to eat (Quran only people should eat donkey kebabs)

h. insects and vermin are not haram

i. crow is not haram according to Quran only (Quran only people eat kava biryani)

j. Quran only people allowed to drink urine, eat feces, swallow sperm

k. Quran only people allowed to do anal sex

So the Quran-only people are the biggest joke of humanity

Actually I also recognized if hadith contains good teaching like philosophers sentences, the hygiene like all points you posting, and etc.But is that hadith really 100% from Nabi Muhammad? How if that was man made cause hadith writing is not Prophet's command and Prophet, all Sahabat, none of them became eye witnesses of hadith writing.

It's like Hindu's Scripture, the Hindu's Scripture contains some good teaching similiar with the hadith, but is Hindu's Scripture is from Allah?

Just imagine humans can wrote the Scripture such like Hindu's and Budha's, then it's not imposibble human created narrations such like the Kutub As Asittah.

Quote from: Earthdom on June 15, 2013, 04:52:24 AM
Actually I also recognized if hadith contains good teaching like philosophers sentences, the hygiene like all points you posting, and etc.

So you recognize that Hadith contains good teachings which are not in the Quran.

Now were making progress. :laugh:

Quote from: Israfeel on June 15, 2013, 04:56:06 AM
So you recognize that Hadith contains good teachings which are not in the Quran.

Good, looks like you're not type a person who reading something carefully.Please read my post carefully before you reply.

I'm also recognize Hindhu and Buddha's Scriptures as good teaching like hadith, but none of them came from Allah like hadith.So why I must have iman on them?

Quote from: Earthdom on June 15, 2013, 05:00:04 AM
Good, looks like you're not type a person who reading something carefully.Please read my post carefully before you reply.

I'm also recognize Hindhu and Buddha's Scriptures as good teaching like hadith, but none of them came from Allah like hadith.So why I must have iman on them?

The point is you admit that the good things in Hadith about hygiene, which are not in the Quran. Now you also say you like Hindu and Buddhist scriptures.

So what happened to following Quran only and Quran is the perfect book no other book is necessary. You admitting that Quran does not contain the full guidance, but there is guidance in Hadith and also Hindu/Buddhist books which is not in Quran.

Very good.

Peace,

Yes it is my opinion. And where does God forbid you to have an opinion? Especially if it is a blessed opinion. God did not tell you to be empty shells not using the processing power he has bestowed you with.

The question is whose opinion you are following.

If they see anal sex as clean then that stands for them. I take no part in that.

Swallowing sperm... Well I think it is nutritious, but I have never tasted it.

So you believe not Quran to be the words of God. Why do you call yourself by the label Muslim? Why not invent your own religion? But you might have done that already...

Have you found any nonsense in the Quran? You should choose your sources carefully.

You misinterpret the commandment about images. It means pictures used in idol worship. And I am sure the phrases are not entirely correctly translated.

The original stone tablets with the original Law is gone. The only existing remnants are the words in the Old Testament. Considering the state of it why follow such words as to stone someone. The Quran does not mention it even once except in negative remarks.

Since you have Quran the words from the Law were transferred to it.

Suit your western style? What do you know about that? Like I said, you have your Knowledge and Wisdom in Quran. What else do you want?

History just repeats itself. People follow conjecture and it necessitates another Messenger to be sent.

And I follow the Ten Commandments, except the stoning because I do not believe it to have been in the original transcript.

Your last argument in your post makes me wonder how you can refer to yourself as a believer. Do you have doubts about the Quran? Can you not see it is from God? And you cannot distinguish between man-made conjecture and the Truth.

Sorry, I was a bit annoyed by your seemingly unblessed nature.

Like I said in an earlier post: "Have your system and I will have mine, we will meet at the gathering". Just let people have their opinions.

God bless you

Quote from: Man of Faith on June 15, 2013, 06:01:30 AM
Swallowing sperm... Well I think it is nutritious

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


See this ladies and gentlemen. This is what happens when you reject the Hadith.

Of course I believe in the Quran. But nowhere in Quran does it say "Follow only Quran nothing else". In fact, Quran stresses several times to follow the Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaih wasallam)

Peace Israfeel,

If you did not notice, I was being ironical or even sarcastic.

Perhaps a little test to see how fast you would come up with conclusive ideas.

Yes, Quran tells you to follow him, but he as a guide is dead and we can only follow his legacy, ie the Quran. Again you are faced back with the Quran. Try again please.

In what hadith other than His do you choose to follow? Yes, God stated that in His book.

Follow the Messenger; yes God wrote that in His Book too, but you cannot follow a dead man, can you? Muhammad was only revealing the Quran, reciting it to his people. That was his duty. And to show what Faith in God can accomplish.

God bless you

Quote from: Man of Faith on June 15, 2013, 06:43:32 AM
Peace Israfeel,

If you did not notice, I was being ironical or even sarcastic.

Perhaps a little test to see how fast you would come up with conclusive ideas.

Yes, Quran tells you to follow him, but he as a guide is dead and we can only follow his legacy, ie the Quran. Again you are faced back with the Quran. Try again please.

In what hadith other than His do you choose to follow? Yes, God stated that in His book.

Follow the Messenger; yes God wrote that in His Book too, but you cannot follow a dead man, can you? Muhammad was only revealing the Quran, reciting it to his people. That was his duty. And to show what Faith in God can accomplish.

God bless you

Why is it impossible to follow someone who has died if we knew everything about him? Even today many people follow the teachings and ideas of dead people, like Buddha, Gandhi, George Washington, Elvis Prestly, etc.

Why is it impossible to follow the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him especially when his teachings have been preserved in the Hadith?

By the way Quran says to take whatever the Prophet gives you and abstain from whatever he forbids you. Now we know that Quran is for all time and all people, it is a universal book. But the way you read Quran, half of its commandments no longer apply today. It shows that in reality you are going against Quran.

Also Allah says that the Prophet is not only given Al-Kitab (Quran), but also Al-Hikmah. Now my question to you is what is Al-Hikmah??

Quote from: Israfeel on June 15, 2013, 03:32:35 AM


So the Quran-only people are the biggest joke of humanity

So what you are saying is that what God has commanded is a joke?   It is God who gave mankind the Koran, and the faculties (the brain, the vision, wisdom, etc) and told us to follow only His guidance.  God did not command that we listen and follow stories told by Abu huraira and company.

I suggest that you read God's words again.  Again keep in mind that everything you say and do are being recorded on God's tablet and at the end you have go answer to God.   Keep in mind that God is also a member of this forum and listening/reading our posts.   

Quote from: Israfeel on June 15, 2013, 06:07:52 AM

Of course I believe in the Quran. But nowhere in Quran does it say "Follow only Quran nothing else". In fact, Quran stresses several times to follow the Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaih wasallam)[/size]

If you really believed in the Koran, then you would believe it when God said the Koran is complete, DETAILED and not look for guidance elsewhere in the stories told by Abu huraira and company. 

If you really followed Muhammed then you will do what Muhammed did which is listen to God taking Koran as his guidance.   Instead what you do is listen to stories and lies told by people like abu huraira and company about God and the prophets.   

I suggest that you seek God for guidance, meditate and contemplate the words of God, thinking of he essence of God and what God cares about and what we will be judged on at the end.   

I suggest that you truly follow the Koran and not make any distinction between the messengers and think of the message that prophets including Muhammed relayed. 

Peace,

Because history is always beautified and corrupted with honoring things which never took place, or they are always in favor of the "hero".

Many historic figures are portrayed more righteous than they really were in their life. They may have been good, but not "that good".

The Quran is good because it is our answer keys.

God bless you

Quote from: justamuslim on June 15, 2013, 07:11:30 AM
If you really believed in the Koran, then you would believe it when God said the Koran is complete, DETAILED and not look for guidance elsewhere in the stories told by Abu huraira and company. 

If you really followed Muhammed then you will do what Muhammed did which is listen to God taking Koran as his guidance.   Instead what you do is listen to stories and lies told by people like abu huraira and company about God and the prophets.   

I suggest that you seek God for guidance, meditate and contemplate the words of God, thinking of he essence of God and what God cares about and what we will be judged on at the end.   

I suggest that you truly follow the Koran and not make any distinction between the messengers and think of the message that prophets including Muhammed relayed.

:bravo: totally agree

Quote from: Israfeel on June 15, 2013, 06:49:30 AM


Why is it impossible to follow the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him especially when his teachings have been preserved in the Hadith?

Hadith = sayings of Abu huraira and company.   Let's get the facts straight.  What is recorded and preserved are what abu huraira and company supposedly saw and heard prophet Muhammed say or do.   

What prophet Muhammed said is preserved in the Koran by the authority of God. 

Israfeel, if you are going to make your claims make them right.  You don't follow Muhammed.  What you follow is Abu huraira and company.   Hadith are a collection of stories told by abu huraira and company.   This is what you follow.   

Quote from: Israfeel on June 15, 2013, 04:37:29 AM


Now let me tell you that our Hadith following women would never write such shameful things. They would die of shame before they could write what this Quran-only woman wrote so casually for the whole world to see. Something to think about.

You know what all hadith following women and men are doing in private?  Of course, no hadith following people will write about what they are actually doing. 

There is nothing shameful in how husband and wife mutually love and enjoy each other.   I will say it out loud and clear to the whole world that this is not what God's religion is about - foreskin, pubic hair, bodily fluids,  sexual practices of couples, and so on. 

Do not make a mockery out of God's message to mankind which is strive to be pious as this is what God loves. 

Peace,

Right. Do not make a mockery out of God's religion of peace.

God bless you

Quote from: Israfeel on June 15, 2013, 04:49:03 AM


Circumcision is essential for cleanliness and purity, but still you people are against it?

You make statements but can you back up your statements?   

Again what you are saying is that God created impurity by creating foreskin extending to the glans penis.   

by the way depending on skills of the person doing the circumcision sometimes too much or too little foreskin is taken out.   So how much foreskin removal would you say is adequate meeting your criteria of "purity".  A boy can be circumcised and still has to retract his foreskin.   

And how about boys who cannot have circumcision due to medical conditions or genital anomalies like hypospadias, then what you are saying is that these boys will forever remain impure because of God's doing?   

Quote from: justamuslim on June 15, 2013, 07:33:55 AM
You know what all hadith following women and men are doing in private?  Of course, no hadith following people will write about what they are actually doing. 

There is nothing shameful in how husband and wife mutually love and enjoy each other.   I will say it out loud and clear to the whole world that this is not what God's religion is about - foreskin, pubic hair, bodily fluids,  sexual practices of couples, and so on. 

Do not make a mockery out of God's message to mankind which is strive to be pious as this is what God loves.

Point to be noted: He says that a ''hadither woman would die out of shame for what justamuslim'' said. But why dont hadither women die out of shame when they read hadith which in details describe how muhammad had sex  :brickwall:

Quote from: Israfeel on June 15, 2013, 03:32:35 AM
So if you follow Quran only, you never have to

a. be circumcised

b. remove your pubic hair

c. wash yourself after answering call of nature

d. wash dishes which were used by dogs and other animals

e. clean your teeth

f. wash hands before eating

g. donkey is not haram to eat (Quran only people should eat donkey kebabs)

h. insects and vermin are not haram

i. crow is not haram according to Quran only (Quran only people eat kava biryani)

j. Quran only people allowed to drink urine, eat feces, swallow sperm

k. Quran only people allowed to do anal sex

So the Quran-only people are the biggest joke of humanity

How can anyone strive to meet 2:222 purity yet hold the view that they would not have to keep their private areas clean, wash themselves, wash what they eat on/keep them clean, clean their teeth, wash their hands, and be able to drink urine, eat feces or swallow sperm? There are things people must do to stay clean, not restricted to the examples you listed, applying the above principle seems more than sufficient, does it not? Why do you need a list, one that would naturally become out-of-date as mankind progresses as it is?

Regarding donkeys, it's cited as an example of grazing livestock used for transportation as opposed to food.
"And of the grazing livestock are carriers [of burdens] and those [too] small. Eat of what Allah has provided for you and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy."
[6:142] (Sahih International)
The SI translation for this verse is kinda odd, I don't understand where "too small" came from when wafarshan is referring to "meat" here. (http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%286:142:4%29) The Pickthall and Yusuf Ali are, imo, better:
"And of the cattle (He produceth) some for burdens, some for food. Eat of that which Allah hath bestowed upon you, and follow not the footsteps of the devil, for lo! he is an open foe to you." [6:142] (Pickthall)
"Of the cattle are some for burden and some for meat: eat what Allah hath provided for you, and follow not the footsteps of Satan: for he is to you and avowed enemy. " [6:142] (Yusuf Ali)
Reading 6:142 in conjuction with 16:8:
"And [He created] the horses, mules and donkeys for you to ride and [as] adornment. And He creates that which you do not know. [16:8] (Sahih International)
"And horses and mules and asses (hath He created) that ye may ride them, and for ornament. And He createth that which ye know not." [16:8] (Pickthall)
"And (He has created) horses, mules, and donkeys, for you to ride and use for show; and He has created (other) things of which ye have no knowledge." [16:8] (Yusuf Ali)

In my view, as a general principle we're not supposed to eat animals used for travel purposes.

Regarding anal sex, we know from the aforementioned 2:222+surrounding verses that we are not to engage in sexual actvitiy with women during their menstrual cycles. I'm not a woman so a sister will probably be able to better explain this than I could, but to my understanding menstruation does not affect the anus, yet sex is not allowed full stop. It seems like as far as sex goes, the Quran only seems to recognize penis-to-vagina sex. Furthermore, the anus simply isn't designed for sexual activity (regardless of how widespread a practice it may have become in some cultures) and has health risks/damage associated to it. It would be for the best interests of both people to avoid it, I'd think.

Regarding circumcision, I am still kinda stumped on the clothing comparison you made earlier. It seems like you're just as stumped by justamuslim's "hypospadias & other conditions that prevent circumcision" though...I'm not sure where to go from here.

The writers of hadith were not infallible. So I don?t take things lightly.

Where do you get the biography of each and every narrator?

There is evidence against abu huraira, yet he has stated the most hadiths.

QuoteWhere's your proof? Show me a manuscript of the complete Quran which is dated before the year 633 CE.

I believe I stated this based on sunni sources, it?s not my claim. If you read the link I gave you earlier you?ll have a better idea it discusses about this. However if you want me to show you a manuscript of a complete Quran dating before 633, I can?t do that nor did I say I could. If you think that your argument is fair why don?t you show me the completed manuscript of the so called sahifa sadiqa.

QuoteFitra means something which is natural. Other Hadith show that going against the Fitra is haram. And the Hadith is general, so it applies to women with regard to removing unclean hair, cutting nails, etc. However, there are some parts of the Hadith which are obviously only for men. For example:

'A'isha reported: The Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) said: Ten are the acts according to fitra:clipping the moustache, letting the beard grow, using the tooth-stick, snuffing water in the nose, cutting the nails, washing the finger joints, plucking the hair under the armpits, shaving the pubes and cleaning one's private parts with water. The narrator said: I have forgotten the tenth, but it may have been rinsing the mouth. (Sahih Muslim)

Fitra isn?t only that also the narrator forgot the tenth. Part of the hadith criteria for it to be authentic is for the commentator to have excellent retention of memory. How come criteria applies in some cases and not in all?

QuoteNow the trimming mustache and letting beard grow obviously only apply to men since women dont have mustache or beard. As for circumcision, there is difference of opinion if it is necessary for women. But other Hadith show that even women should be circumcised but it is not obligatory only recommended.

So based on the vagueness of the hadith not stating who it is addressed to, there can be multiple opinions. Yet you cannot accept this in the Quran. Double standards ?

QuoteIf circumcision is beneficial as you confess, then why doesnt God obligate it?

Drinking water is beneficial, exercise is beneficial. Do you need God to obligate it for you to know it is beneficial? Why didn?t God obligate it? See how your logic is flawed?

Anyway I?ve finished with this discussion.

The Quran does not obligate circumcision.

Hadith does not obligate it either.

One can extrapolate that it is a sunnah from hadith, that it is a ?fitra? however it is not mentioned as an obligation. None of the hadith evidence you put forth say it is an obligation.

Until you can prove that a hadith states believing man/women must perform circumcision to be considered in the fold of islam your argument is mute. Had you said it is a sunnah and it is commendable then you?d have some validity.

Also before you have a go at Quran Only people and state ridiculous claims, some of what you say is explained in the Quran but you fail to read the verses mentioned to you earlier. If you choose to be ignorant and choose your own understanding of what people believe than you are being dishonest to yourself.

Quote from: Azz on June 15, 2013, 08:14:49 AM
How can anyone strive to meet 2:222 purity yet hold the view that they would not have to keep their private areas clean, wash themselves, wash what they eat on/keep them clean, clean their teeth, wash their hands, and be able to drink urine, eat feces or swallow sperm? There are things people must do to stay clean, not restricted to the examples you listed, applying the above principle seems more than sufficient, does it not? Why do you need a list, one that would naturally become out-of-date as mankind progresses as it is?

You and I agree on this point that when Quran says Allah loves the purified, it means we should not do the above mentioned things. But for some reason you are not adding the importance of circumcision for purity under this general principle.

QuoteRegarding donkeys, it's cited as an example of grazing livestock used for transportation as opposed to food.
In my view, as a general principle we're not supposed to eat animals used for travel purposes.

Well you're view is going against the view of most Quranists, who quote the following verse:

Say: "I find not in the message received by me by inspiration any (meat) forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it, unless it be dead meat, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine,- for it is an abomination - or, what is impious, (meat) on which a name has been invoked, other than Allah's" (Surah 6:146 Bismillah included)

This verse clearly is saying that apart from dead meat, blood, pork, and that which is dedicated to other than Allah - EVERYTHING ELSE IS HALAL.
This is why Quranists based on this verse are saying they can eat anything, even they can eat feces, because for them only these four things mentioned by Quran are haram.

QuoteRegarding anal sex, we know from the aforementioned 2:222+surrounding verses that we are not to engage in sexual actvitiy with women during their menstrual cycles. I'm not a woman so a sister will probably be able to better explain this than I could, but to my understanding menstruation does not affect the anus, yet sex is not allowed full stop. It seems like as far as sex goes, the Quran only seems to recognize penis-to-vagina sex. Furthermore, the anus simply isn't designed for sexual activity (regardless of how widespread a practice it may have become in some cultures) and has health risks/damage associated to it. It would be for the best interests of both people to avoid it, I'd think.

This is your opinion. Again it is going against the position of most Quranists. Look at my signature, I quoted a Quranist woman on this forum "Justamuslim" she said anal sex and swallowing sperm is allowed and is a good thing (God forbid!). The Quranists use this verse

Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how you like (Surah 2:224 Bismillah included)

So Quranists say that you can approach your wife however you like, including with anal sex.

Now I think that unlike other Quranists, you are a more reasonable and enlightened person. I hope and pray Allah guides you to see the importance of following Hadith otherwise Islam remains incomplete and totally impossible to accept as a Religion of total guidance.

May Allah guide you to the Right Path AMEEEN

btw: Quranists do not believe in saying "Ameen" because its not mentioned in Quran  :laugh:

Quote from: Israfeel on June 15, 2013, 05:04:37 AM
The point is you admit that the good things in Hadith about hygiene, which are not in the Quran. Now you also say you like Hindu and Buddhist scriptures.

So what happened to following Quran only and Quran is the perfect book no other book is necessary. You admitting that Quran does not contain the full guidance, but there is guidance in Hadith and also Hindu/Buddhist books which is not in Quran.

Very good.

Haaaa haah.You're boring. :brickwall:

Do you know the fate of  a debate with someone like you who are not reading the posts carefully or avoiding the straight point?
The debate will be NO ENDING.

Quote from: Earthdom on June 15, 2013, 09:23:12 AM


Haaaa haah.You're boring. :brickwall:

How didi notice?   :D :D :D :D  Man, that was ever an understatement.

Common, Israfeel, loosen up a little bit. With discussions like this neither you nor anybody is going to open de gates or heaven or even hell. Relax, man, relax.

Salaam

without any disrespect for hadith or any other source of knowledge does Israfeel know that hadithists can drink camel urine/piss   :yuck: , brother Israfeel don't believe all you read please use your own intellect as you alone will be responsible for what you do, no excuses like you followed so and so ...........

:o

Quote from: Israfeel on June 15, 2013, 08:26:46 AM
You and I agree on this point that when Quran says Allah loves the purified, it means we should not do the above mentioned things. But for some reason you are not adding the importance of circumcision for purity under this general principle.

Well you're view is going against the view of most Quranists, who quote the following verse:

Say: "I find not in the message received by me by inspiration any (meat) forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it, unless it be dead meat, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine,- for it is an abomination - or, what is impious, (meat) on which a name has been invoked, other than Allah's" (Surah 6:146 Bismillah included)

This verse clearly is saying that apart from dead meat, blood, pork, and that which is dedicated to other than Allah - EVERYTHING ELSE IS HALAL.
This is why Quranists based on this verse are saying they can eat anything, even they can eat feces, because for them only these four things mentioned by Quran are haram.

This is your opinion. Again it is going against the position of most Quranists. Look at my signature, I quoted a Quranist woman on this forum "Justamuslim" she said anal sex and swallowing sperm is allowed and is a good thing (God forbid!). The Quranists use this verse

Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how you like (Surah 2:224 Bismillah included)

So Quranists say that you can approach your wife however you like, including with anal sex.

Now I think that unlike other Quranists, you are a more reasonable and enlightened person. I hope and pray Allah guides you to see the importance of following Hadith otherwise Islam remains incomplete and totally impossible to accept as a Religion of total guidance.

May Allah guide you to the Right Path AMEEEN

btw: Quranists do not believe in saying "Ameen" because its not mentioned in Quran  :laugh:

Like I said, at this moment in time I see no clear evidence that chopping off one's foreskin grants benefits to physicial cleanliness. If it is someday proven otherwise then I'll have no choice but to change my mind and I'll have to apologize to everyone who I've told this to, but until the seemingly unlikely case of that happening, I'll maintain my aforementioned views on this. Everything else on that list can pretty plainly be categorized as "dirty/filthy"

Regarding the food issue, the aforementioned 6:142 (only a couple lines before the one you were quoting, 6:145) distinguishes some cattle being used "for burden" and some "for meat". It's a distinction that seems logical enough to mention on it's own, donkeys and the like not considered food because they are tools for transportation services. Some Quranists may disagree with me on this though as it stands I am quite confident in my line of thinking of this matter. Frankly, anyone (muslim or not) who attempts to justify eating feces has issues imo, and I've already explained how the Quran does not support holding that justification (this is different to the circumcision issue as while the benefits vs adverse effects of circumcisions discussion is mixed and unclear, the huge amount risks involved with consuming filth is very clear)

Justamuslim did say that she was being sarcastic in a follow up post (going off on a tangent slightly, I feel that sarcasm should generally be avoided on forums of any sort. It's something that only really works in conversations where one can hear each other's voices and over the internet, there almost always seems to be atleast one misunderstanding resulting from it lol)

Like verses are generally subject to the effects of each other, pretty much every muslim agrees on this much. Keeping what I said about 2:222 only recognizing penis-to-vagina sex, the "how you like" can really only refer to general foreplay (which goes into the whole oral sex debate, which there seems to be absolutely no consensus on for those are intent on reaching some sorta binding ruling for the issue)

Thank you for the compliment, I guess.

Quote from: Azz on June 15, 2013, 12:07:55 PM

Justamuslim did say that she was being sarcastic in a follow up post (going off on a tangent slightly, I feel that sarcasm should generally be avoided on forums of any sort. It's something that only really works in conversations where one can hear each other's voices and over the internet, there almost always seems to be atleast one misunderstanding resulting from it lol)

Nope, it was not me.  Please reread my posts. 

I will say it again - what kind of sex husband and wife mutually agree upon and have  is nothing shameful or a sin.  So on judgement day, God is going to punish couple for having nonvaginal sex?  Seriously?? 

Regarding anal sex, there are safety and health concerns.  The anus is for holding feces, is not lubricated and can lead to tears, weakening of the anal sphincter muscle leading to fecal incontinence. For these reasons, I am not a proponent of anal sex and would advice the couple to use condom which most do when engaging in such practices and to use lots of lubricant and practice relaxing BUT i am not a proponent of anal sex not because it is a sin as some here claim.   

We need to be careful in saying something is a sin or a shameful act. 

Always, people feel a need to draw God into giving support to their own positions, may it be from killing people to couples having sex.   need to refrain/stop from doing that.  Why?  God has made himself clear, don't impute lies about him.  So if you find oral, anal sex or edible underwears or whatever else couples do to be disgusting, unclean, impure or whatever then simply don't do it but please don't go around saying it is a sin or a shame or  God said so and dictating what or how couples should have sex. 

Also keep in mind that the translations are not all accurate noting the background of the translators.  Quran is the word of God but the translations are NOT free of bias, prejudice, influence, distortion, misinterpretation and misunderstanding. 

I misread man of faith's post as your own, my bad justamuslim.

shameful/sinful act distinction is important, I think I myself need to keep that in mind more often as well...

Quote from: Azz on June 15, 2013, 01:00:41 PM
I misread man of faith's post as your own, my bad justamuslim.

shameful/sinful act distinction is important, I think I myself need to keep that in mind more often as well...

No problemo.  At times it is hard to convey things and glad to know that you got what I am saying.   :)

Israfeel,

You have the right to disagree, strongly object, be appalled, disgusted or whatever with my views/beliefs and can express your opinions but you do not have the right to ridicule me in the manner that you have by quoting me with your comments as your signature.   

I ask that you read the rules of this forum.  When you show disrespect for someone, you are only disrespecting yourself. 

By the way, you do know that when you mock and ridicule me in the manner that you have only reflects poorly on your permanent record of how you have lived your life and not on mine.   You can choose to continue to wrong yourself or do the right thing.   Also, do you know that what you are doing shows immaturity?  I ask that you stop what you are doing and show some degree of decorum and dignity on his forum.  Thank you. 

Peace justamuslim,

The misconduct is a curse for upholding man-made conjecture. Lack of peace and restlessness is the consequence of disobeying God.

God bless you

Quote from: huruf on June 15, 2013, 10:37:24 AM
How didi notice?   :D :D :D :D  Man, that was ever an understatement.

Common, Israfeel, loosen up a little bit. With discussions like this neither you nor anybody is going to open de gates or heaven or even hell. Relax, man, relax.

Hehehe, I actually laughing after posting some like that.
I'm never mad to Israfeel, but akhi Israfeel is just like Sunnis in my country which I debated, they never go straight point just rounding themself like a tire.

Quote from: Maha on June 15, 2013, 07:47:54 AM
But why dont hadither women die out of shame when they read hadith which in details describe how muhammad had sex  :brickwall:

:rotfl: yeah, I read that kind of gossips once in the 'holy book of gossip according to the sunni scholar'.

That's what amaze me on these member of the "Cult Of Muhammad", they want to know everything about Muhammad, including his sexual and also toilet behavior even when Muhammad already long dead.
And I'm more amazed how the 8th century people also invented such stories just to give them a 'reference which they can look up to'.

Honestly the above attitude is 'unique' only to the "Cult Of Muhammad", I haven't seen the same behavior in any other cult or religion in the world. I mean does the cult of Jesus / christians ever bothered to ask "How did Jesus take his leak?"

Salam / Peace

Just wondering how were circumcisions performed back in those days without general or local anesthesia?   

Peace justamuslim,

There were several ways, some ate poisons which affected CNS and sometimes they hit the patient in the head with a club so they went unconscious.

Well, or so they just performed the surgery placing something in the mouth of the patient during operation. The patient often got something to hold on to and sometimes there were people trying to draw the attention of the patient by trying to calm him down.

God bless you

I am sure that some of the preposterous hadiths were intended as jokes. They are jokes and if you take them as jokes they make sense.

How somebody got to think of them as anything but jokes may be something on which to diagnose a mental disposition devoid of imagination and common sense. Like what, serving 100 women in a night. ?For God sake, that is the kind of jolly joke some bunch of men or women would say in a round of jokes and laughing. ?How on earth could anybody be su nuts as to read such a thing seriously. Can't remember whether it was 100 or what, but something along wild exageration not for a prophet but even for a squid.

Salaam

Quote from: justamuslim on June 16, 2013, 07:58:02 AM
Israfeel,

You have the right to disagree, strongly object, be appalled, disgusted or whatever with my views/beliefs and can express your opinions but you do not have the right to ridicule me in the manner that you have by quoting me with your comments as your signature.   

I ask that you read the rules of this forum.  When you show disrespect for someone, you are only disrespecting yourself.

Madame how have I disrespected or ridiculed you? I only quoted your exact words to the letter. I didn't add a single dot to what you yourself wrote.

So how exactly am I disrespecting or ridiculing you? Are you saying that quote of yours is a source of disrespect and ridicule for you? Well if that's the case I will take it down. Just tell me to take down your quote and I will. But remember, its only your words not mine.

Quote from: Israfeel on June 22, 2013, 01:03:56 AM
Madame how have I disrespected or ridiculed you? I only quoted your exact words to the letter. I didn't add a single dot to what you yourself wrote.

So how exactly am I disrespecting or ridiculing you? Are you saying that quote of yours is a source of disrespect and ridicule for you? Well if that's the case I will take it down. Just tell me to take down your quote and I will. But remember, its only your words not mine.

Why did you take my words and use it as your signature?   What is your intention?  And you think it is showing respect? 

If you wish to display your immaturity then by all means continue on.  Like I said, your actions show who you are and I believe you have displayed that clearly for everyone - God included.   

Take it down when YOU see your behavior as being immature, disrespectful in this discussion forum. 

Quote from: Israfeel on June 22, 2013, 01:03:56 AM
Just tell me to take down your quote and I will.

Again a display of irresponsibility. Why must she tell you? Don't you have any sense of responsibility yourself? Can't you think and act on your own? Stop putting all responsibility on others.

Quote
But remember, its only your words not mine.

No dear brother, these are in effect YOUR words now, because it is YOU who spread'em. HER words were posted ONCE. You then decided to mulitply them... and that's purely on you now.

Quote from: justamuslim on June 22, 2013, 07:41:43 AM
Why did you take my words and use it as your signature?   What is your intention?  And you think it is showing respect? 

If you wish to display your immaturity then by all means continue on.  Like I said, your actions show who you are and I believe you have displayed that clearly for everyone - God included.   

Take it down when YOU see your behavior as being immature, disrespectful in this discussion forum.

Trolling is as old as forums. What makes us think now that it and extinct species? And I doubt that the troll is a bona fide anything, either hadither or anything else.



Salaam

Okay I will take down the quote. I dont like to hurt peoples feelings.

I was just thinking.... on the flip side, what israfeel is doing may actually be a good thing.  There are many lurkers who frequent this forum one of whom may be a closet Sunni or a hadith follower conditioned to feel ashamed for having oral sex with spouse.... Just reading what I said which israfeel is now using as his signature might lead the person to see the fallacies and making him/her think. 

   I'm not sure either Israfeel is a Muslim or anti-Muslim troll who pretends to be a Muslim. He extremely supports the blasphemy laws in the hadith created by Bukhari & Buddies 2 centuries after Prophet Muhammad's death. Hs truly upholds the hadith much higher over Quran. According to him, Muslims cannot chew food because Quran does not tell how to chew food.

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/DOC/links.html

http://www.circumcision.org/index.html

Bottom Line: Anything not mentioned in Quran is NOT something we should concern ourselves with in terms of spiritual salvation.

My future baby will not go to hell if he is not circumcised. I would never put my son through that.

Remember Allah said that if the Quran were from anyone but God, you would find in it many contradictions. And you can find plenty in Hadith.

I recommend reading 3elm el Jamaa3 by Imam Al Shafi' (The amalgamation of knowledge). He had to debate and convince all the scholars of his time (200 yrs after death of Prophet Muhammad) to embrace Al-Akhbar (stories/hadith), to make them binding and obligatory on Muslims. That should tell you something.