Isa is not Jesus, and Isa and Jesus are both a mystery !

[Bender]

In the Qur'an their is no time line/history/men's names and the "names" of the prophets and their kasasa is just a general concept to show you a certain law either psychological (Guidance) or physical and universal (Scientific).

Maybe it's better to say, that this is your opninion. Unless of course you are 100% sure of what you claiming.

How I came up with Rooh-->Read Adam's rooh and I Will post what I've found later on.

I have read them and I?m not sure at what you are referring to. Do you mean 38:72 and 15:29 in relation with 2:31-33?


There are different ?ruhs?, do you think they are all meant something like "level of knowledge"? Please note the different writings in the link I gave you.
http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%20روح;
Which writing of "Ruh" are you referring to?

[SeekingYou]

I will reply in details just wait, need to translate/modify my point :/

[bodhitharta]

Isa and Jesus are the same the story is the same  and there is no mystery except the Mystery of why the OP wanted to create mischief

[youssef4342]

my current belief, is that Isa is Jesus or Yeshua...
1) For the name, sometimes names are changed slightly from one language to another. Consider the Arabic Elias... This would be similar to the NT form of Elias... However the correct version in Hebrew I'd Eliyahu.... Yet both are the same people in the Hebrew bible, the NT, and the Quran... He was against those who worshiped Baal, an Idol. With Jesus it is similar. His name is close to Joshua in Hebrew or Yahushua, in the Christian Arabic form Yasoo3.

2) for the Marry, she was not the literal sister of Aaron the brother Moses. The Quran cites that Isa was sent after the messengers have been sent... Consider the wife of ZakariYAH (I think it was she)... She was called a daughter of Aaron... Does that make her the literal daughter of Aaron.

3) consider that both Jesus and ISA are believed to have been the messiahs sent to the children of Israel, and that their narrative of ZakariYAH and his son yahya/John the Baptist is also similar, and that the Quran states that John was confirming a word from God, and that Jesus was also a word from God (kalimat Minho).... And the NT of John the babtist confirming the upcoming of Jesus as a role baptizing with the HOLY spirit....Which in both the Quran and the NT are cited to have aided Jesus/ISA in their Role. moreover, both scriptures cite of new laws given by Jesus/Isa of making lawful what was not and also the mention of the GOSPEL/Injil as a scripture...

4) consider the striking similarity of the description of those who followed ISA in the Quran as being merciful/compassionate, close to the believers in friendship, and that they don't become/fall to arrogance... Compare that with Jesus's teachings of loving thy neighbor, forgive that you may be forgiven, and whoever exalts himself will be debased.

5) Consider Jesus and Isa's Miracles: raising the dead, feeding thousands (sura 5 & feasts), resurrecting the dead, healing the blind, and leprous etc.

6) Consider the end of Jesus & Isa: both are believed/supposed to the point of view of the witnesses to have been killed and crucified.

7) consider the historical perspective of some nazareens/Christians who attributed Jesus/Isa the messiah as the son of the Almighty, and brought up the trinity doctrine in the Quran. Also of how some have taken/worshiped him and his mother as god figures besides the Almighty true God.

Consider that Both Jews and nazareens/Christians are cited to us in the Quran as reading the same scripture, and yet criticizing each other for not having a basis. Also of how Isa's followers are on top of the Jews (in dominance/majority etc). Also of how the followers of ISA are broken up into sects where animosity/hatred has been wedged  between them.

9) Consider the narrative perspective of the Quran, the Hebrew bible, and the NT, of the coming of Jesus/Isa... In the Quran  Isa is cited to have come after the messengers... The Gospels cite the same, and no where in the Hebrew bible do we hear of a Jesus/Isa/messiah figure who was present that did miracles and brought new laws and was allegedly  to have been crucified. Moreover, the Quran is cited to have been revealed after the coming of Jesus in sura 2, (read the narrative of the children of israel from 2:40 and on until you get to Isa, then the revealing of the Quran)...

10) consider that Jesus/Isa in both the NT and the Quran spake of an upcoming helper/parcelete and in the Quran as a messenger Called Ahmed.... Again read the narrative of the children of Israel from 2:40 and on till you get to the mention of Jesus and directly after it cites of how a book came/was revealed (ie the Quran)...the chronology fits closely with Jesus and Isa


Otherwise, bring an 1) alternative messiah Figure, who 2) was sent to the children of Israel and 3) did miracles and 4) was assumed to have been crucified by the witnesses and 5) was attributed by some of his later followers as the son of the Almighty and 6) was attributed as a figure in the trinity doctrine, and 7) his true followers are compassionate/merciful, and are close to the believers, and they are broken up into sects which might have animosity/hatred between them, and 9) are on top of the Jews (in dominance) and 10) still read the Hebrew scriptures (translated or not), and 11) say that the Jews are on no bases and Bice versa and 12) taken/worship isa and his mother as god figures besides the Almighty true God.....

[easternqibla]

my current belief, is that Isa is Jesus or Yeshua...

Thank you for writing this: It saved me the time. Shame it was at the very end of the topic which meant I had to read 6 pages before finding it!

However, it seems the main thrust to separate Isa and Jesus is this:

The Isa mentioned in the Quran lived shortly after Moses' time, many centuries before Jesus.

I think this must be based on the Quran's statement about Mary being the sister of Aaron. However, I think I have adequately answered this in this topic
The Great Miriam Dilemma

Upon reading what I wrote there, are you so sure Isa was at the time of Moses?

Anyway, the Quran when properly read refutes this idea:

sura 5:
49. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: Therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: A guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
50. Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

By referring to the "People of the Gospel" it is clear that this group are Christians. There have been no groups claiming to hold to a Virgin Mother called Mary from the time of Moses all the way into clearly recorded history! (By the way, before printing the books of the New Testament were bound separately. The 4 gospels were called "The Gospel", and the rest of the NT "the Apostle". Observe the use of the singular 'Gospel'.)

Additionally,

5:81. Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: Because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.

Here the name David precedes Jesus. (Although in general list of prophets/messengers 4:163, 6:84-86 the names appear in a seemingly random order.)

Is this the end of the matter? Can we now move forward with Isa and Jesus being the same person, albeit with differing approaches to him?

Richard

[mirjamnur]

Salam Richard

sura 5:
49. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: Therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: A guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
50. Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

By referring to the "People of the Gospel" it is clear that this group are Christians. There have been no groups claiming to hold to a Virgin Mother called Mary from the time of Moses all the way into clearly recorded history! (By the way, before printing the books of the New Testament were bound separately. The 4 gospels were called "The Gospel", and the rest of the NT "the Apostle". Observe the use of the singular 'Gospel'.)

from the Quote above i understand, that the Gospel  must be AN REVELATION from God (including laws) - But the todays Gospel isn't a revelation from God it is a hadith about Jesus life, or i understand something wrong here?
Thank you for clarification and peace

[easternqibla]

Salam Richard

from the Quote above i understand, that the Gospel  must be AN REVELATION from God (including laws) - But the todays Gospel isn't a revelation from God it is a hadith about Jesus life, or i understand something wrong here?
Thank you for clarification and peace

Apart from traditional Islam (which also accepts some very horrible hadith), where do you get the idea that revelation even has to be books, let alone laws? The Quran clearly calls Christians people of the Gospel/Injil. You should free your mind to allow for a wider interpretation of Islam...

This really should be for a different, though related, topic. The Quranic evidence points to Isa being Jesus and the Gospel being the Injil. How to reconcile its un-Islamic sounding contents with the Quran is something I can help with. Nevertheless, are you prepared to first of all listen to the Quran itself?

Peace,

Richard

[easternqibla]

Salam Richard

from the Quote above i understand, that the Gospel  must be AN REVELATION from God (including laws) - But the todays Gospel isn't a revelation from God it is a hadith about Jesus life, or i understand something wrong here?
Thank you for clarification and peace

I think I might have misunderstood your intention in by previous reply: Sorry. Trying to defend the Gospel book in an Islamic forum naturally make for a bit of insecurity! LOL

I'll reply soon with my thoughts.

sura 5:49. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: Therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: A guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

Jesus confirmed that the Torah was of God. However, he came to lead us above the idea that God wants to give us laws to follow. We have our own God-given conscience after all, both individually and socially. Therefore he himself bought no 'book'. By saying God gave Jesus the Book, the Quran is just speaking generally. The Book of the Gospel (which exists now, and comprises of the 4 separate gospel books) originated with the mission of Jesus, that is all. I could write more, but let this be all for now.

Sorry, peace!

Richard

[mirjamnur]

Salam Richard
no problem
you are right probably Jesus he didn't receive 'a book'

003:048

"And God will teach him The Book (al-kitaba) and The Wisdom (l-hikmata), and The Torah (l-tawrata) and The Injeel (l-injeel)"
The ?al-Kitab?  is strongly equated with the Torah and the Injeel with ?Wisdom?.

5:49. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that he hold between his hand: We sent him the Gospel: Therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: A guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

so the 'law between his hand' could refer to the Torah and the Injeel would have represented the Christian literature being read at the time of Prophet Muhammad's  ministry. This would have most likely been teachings (wisdom) by Prophet Jesus and would have comprised of canonical as well as some non-canonical literature.

and the Quran:

The Quran confirmed aspects of the previous scriptures and passed over other areas (5.15)
The Quran remained a guard over the previous scriptures and to discern fundamental truths (5:48)

but one point remains: Quran mentions the name Isa and not Jesus and denies a crucifixion.
peace

[Ahmad Bilal]

Peace, Richard.

Apart from traditional Islam (which also accepts some very horrible hadith), where do you get the idea that revelation even has to be books, let alone laws? The Quran clearly calls Christians people of the Gospel/Injil. You should free your mind to allow for a wider interpretation of Islam...

This really should be for a different, though related, topic. The Quranic evidence points to Isa being Jesus and the Gospel being the Injil.

That ultimately depends on interpretation. There are certain 'non-canonical' books about Jesus (Eisa) that claim that he did have a book with established laws dictated to his disciples. For example, the Essenic "Gospel of the Nazarenes" claims that Jesus gave his followers twelve laws to adhere to, which supported the pre-established Torah (law) of Moses. They are as follows:

7. AND Iesus said unto them, Behold a new law I give unto you, which is not new but old. Even as Moses gave the Ten Commandments to Israel after the flesh, so also I give unto you the Twelve for the Kingdom of Israel after the Spirit.
8. For who are the Israel of God ? Even they of every nation and tribe who work righteousness, love mercy and keep my commandments, these are the true Israel of God. And standing upon his feet, Jesus spake, saying:
9. Hear O Israel, JOVA, thy God is One; many are My seers, and My prophets. In Me all live and move, and have subsistence.
10. Ye shall not take away the life of any creature for your pleasure, nor for your profit. nor yet torment it.
11. Ye shall not steal the goods of any, nor gather lands and riches to yourselves, beyond your need or use.
12. Ye shall not eat the flesh, nor drink the blood of any slaughtered creature, nor yet any thing which bringeth disorder to your health or senses.
13. Ye shall not make impure marriages, where love and health are not, nor yet corrupt yourselves, or any creature made pure by the Holy.
14. Ye shall not bear false witness against any, nor wilfully deceive any by a lie to hurt them.
15. Ye shall not do unto others, as ye would not that others should do unto you.
16. Ye shall worship One Eternal, the Father-Mother in Heaven, of Whom are all things, and reverence the holy Name.
17. Ye shall revere your fathers and your mothers on earth, whose care is for you, and all the Teachers of Righteousness.
18. Ye shall cherish and protect the weak, and those who are oppressed, and all creatures that suffer wrong.
19. Ye shall work with your hands the things that are good and seemly; so shalt ye eat the fruits Of the earth, and live long in the land.
20. Ye shall purify yourselves daily and rest the Seventh Day from labour, keeping holy the Sabbaths and the Festival of your God.
21. Ye shall do unto others as ye would that others should do unto you.
(Source: Gospel of the Holy Twelve, Lection 46)

What's your view concerning this?

Peace,

Ahmad