Jesus VS Isa

[progressive1993]

Peace Pazazu,

I started making a thread in this section, but never had the chance to finish it. It proved that "Isa" and "Jesus" are not the same name. They are two distinct Hebrew names.

When the Jews during Muhamad's time boasted of having crucified Isa, son of Mary, the Quran tells us that "SHUBBIHA LAHUM". What does this mean? Could it be that they confused Isa, the real nabi who lived in SW Arabia somewhere, and was born under a date tree, with the political rebel called JESUS who came to Plaestine centuries later seeking to overthrow Herod?

What do you think? Please give feedback. I will elaborate more on the points when I can.

Yeshua = Jesus = Isa

4:171 O people of the book, do not overstep in your obligation, nor say about the god except the truth. Isa, the son of Maryam was no more than the god's messenger and the fulfillment of His word to Maryam, and an inspiration from Him. So trust with the god and His messengers, and do not say, "trinity." Cease, for it is better for you. The god is only One god, exalted is He that He should have a son! To Him is all that is in the heavens and what is in the earth. God is enough as a caretaker.

5:17 Rejecters/concealers of the truth/ingrates indeed are those who have said, "The god is the Messiah the son of Maryam." Say, "Who has any power against the god if He had wanted to destroy the Messiah son of Maryam, and his mother, and all who are on earth!" To the god is the sovereignty of heavens and earth and all that is in-between; He creates what He pleases. God has power over all things.

5:72 Rejecters/concealers of the truth/ingrates indeed are those who have said, "The god is the Messiah son of Maryam!" Although the Messiah had said, "O children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever sets up partners with the god, then the god will forbid paradise for him, and his destiny will be the fire; and the wrongdoers will have no supporters."

5:73 Rejecters/concealers of the truth/ingrates indeed are those who have said, "The god is the third of a trinity!" There is no god but one god. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution.

The people of the book made up the trinity of Jesus, God and the "Holy Spirit". They also say that Jesus is the son of God. They are obviously fabricating these lies about none other than Jesus (or, of you want, "Isa/Yeshua"), and, of course, also God. God is presenting the truth to to those who idolize Jesus/Isa and fabricate lies about him.
Also note that Isa/Jesus was a messenger for the children of Israel.

[Ahmad Bilal]

Peace Progressive,

The people of the book made up the trinity of Jesus, God and the "Holy Spirit". They also say that Jesus is the son of God. They are obviously fabricating these lies about none other than Jesus (or, of you want, "Isa/Yeshua"), and, of course, also God. God is presenting the truth to to those who idolize Jesus/Isa and fabricate lies about him.

Actually, Christians DIDN'T make up the concept of the Trinity, nor is the word "trinity" used in the Qur'aan; the word used means "three", not "trinity"... The idea of a Holy Trinity originated with the ancient Egyptians, who instituted the trinity of Ausar (Osiris), Auset (Iris), and Heru (Horus), and this was several centuries before the Israelite religion popped on the scene. After them, and still before the Jews, was Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. In reality, since the Qur'aan says that messengers and warners went to EVERY NATION on the earth, the passages alluding to Trinitarian ideas could've been referring to any of them. The implication of a "messiah" doesn't necessary solidify anything either because, according to the Biblical writings, there were many "messiahs" in Israelite history. In fact, every king in the land, as well as rabbis and priests, was called an "annointed" person of God; the character "Jesus" was by no means the only one. In fact, the Jews adamantly rejected, and still do reject, Jesus as the Biblical messiah.

Personally, I believe "Eesa al masiyh" IS the same person (minus the extraordinary works and myths) as the Biblical Jesus. However, there is also proof to support the contrary. It can really be interpreted in a number of different ways, depending on the student.

[progressive1993]

Peace Ahmad,

Actually, Christians DIDN'T make up the concept of the Trinity, nor is the word "trinity" used in the Qur'aan;
the word used means "three", not "trinity"...

I never said that the Christians made up the general concept of the trinity. I said that they made up the trinity of Jesus, God and the "holy spirit".

"Three" is used, but it still refers to the trinity.

In reality, since the Qur'aan says that messengers and warners went to EVERY NATION on the earth, the passages alluding to Trinitarian ideas could've been referring to any of them. The implication of a "messiah" doesn't necessary solidify anything either because, according to the Biblical writings, there were many "messiahs" in Israelite history. In fact, every king in the land, as well as rabbis and priests, was called an "annointed" person of God; the character "Jesus" was by no means the only one. In fact, the Jews adamantly rejected, and still do reject, Jesus as the Biblical messiah.

4:171 ...Isa, the son of Maryam was no more than the god's messenger

5:17 Rejecters/concealers of the truth/ingrates indeed are those who have said, "The god is the Messiah the son of Maryam".

The above verses clearly talk about Jesus not being the son of God/part of a trinity, etc.
The following one talks about trinities/trinitarians in general:

5:73 Rejecters/concealers of the truth/ingrates indeed are those who have said, "The god is the third of three (i.e. part of a trinity)." There is no god but one god. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject/conceal the truth/are ungrateful from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution.

[Ahmad Bilal]

Peace Progressive,

Peace Ahmad,

I never said that the Christians made up the general concept of the trinity. I said that they made up the trinity of Jesus, God and the "holy spirit".

"Three" is used, but it still refers to the trinity.

4:171 ...Isa, the son of Maryam was no more than the god's messenger

5:17 Rejecters/concealers of the truth/ingrates indeed are those who have said, "The god is the Messiah the son of Maryam".

The above verses clearly talk about Jesus not being the son of God/part of a trinity, etc.
The following one talks about trinities/trinitarians in general:

5:73 Rejecters/concealers of the truth/ingrates indeed are those who have said, "The god is the third of three (i.e. part of a trinity)." There is no god but one god. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject/conceal the truth/are ungrateful from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution.

I don't think that's what Pazazu was speaking about, brother. I think he was saying that "Eesa" and "Jesus" aren't necessarily the same person. From this perspective, how do you know that another man named "Eesa" wasn't idolized by his people and even placed inside a Trinitarian family? The One God (Allah) has been placed in many trinities by various religious groups (i.e. Khemites, Hindus, Greeks, Romans, etc.), and since Allah's messengers have gone to every nation on the planet Earth, then any of their "highest" gods could've been their own portrayal of the Almighty... I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, but I think this may have been what Pazazu was stating and implying.

[Pazuzu]

I don't think that's what Pazazu was speaking about, brother. I think he was saying that "Eesa" and "Jesus" aren't necessarily the same person. From this perspective, how do you know that another man named "Eesa" wasn't idolized by his people and even placed inside a Trinitarian family?

That's exactly what happened with a great majority of the so-called "Nasara", as I will soon prove. (Elements of Sufism had already entered their beliefs concerning Eesa, by the time Paul made his "mysterious" trip to Arabia).

I was delayed from making further posts ever since the thread turned into a debate on inheritance laws between members san and NunHoliday  

There is no need to ponder over complex philosophical issues about "what God meant when He said 'Imra'at' Amram". Did he mean wife of Amran, or descendant??

The simplest answer is usually the most correct.

Imra'at Ibraheem = WIFE of Abraham (not daughter or descenfant). She received tidings of giving birth at an elderly age.
Imra'at Nuh = WIFE of Nuh
Imra'at al-Azeez = WIFE of the ruler of city where Joseph lived (she tried to seduce him, as in Surah 12)

Hence, by comparison, "Imra'at Imran" = WIFE of Amran.

Let us see what the OT says about this woman:  

[The name of Amram's wife was Jochebed, the daughter of Levi, who was born to Levi in Egypt; and she bore to Amram: Aaron and Moses and their sister Miriam.]....(Numbers 26:59)

This "Miriam" mentioned there is the mother of Esau (Isa).  
This is the same woman who was holding a drum and dancing and singing when the waters drowned pharaoh and his troops, as per Exodus 15: 19,20.

The Quran did not confuse "Miriam" daughter of Amram, with Mary mother of Jesus.It was rather the JEWS during Muhamad's time who didn't know their head from their arse  

The mother of the historical Jesus could NOT have been the daughter of Amran. This is chronologically impossible. Please open your eyes.

Furthermore, Paul NEVER claims that Jesus' mother was called Mary. Rather, it was his AUNT who was called Mary. (John also supports this).

Read (John 19:25) in the NT. It says clearly, that, standing near the cross was Jesus' mother, and her sister Mary and Mary Magdalen (Jesu's wife, according to the "Heretical" bibles later banned by emperor Constantine).

How in the HELL could a woman AND her sister have the same name??

Why was it only Paul and John who never called Jesus's mother "Mariam" ??  
The other three bibles do mention his mother's name as Mary, thus exposing the contardictions and falsehoods. I will prove to you later, that this was the result of miscalculated tampering. (This is going to be one Hell of a therad, I'm afraid. There are so many things I wish to point your attention to, but so little time!).

It is because when Mathew, MArk and LUke wrote their bibles (which contradict Paul and John), the idea that Jesus was Esa, was born of a virgin mother, and was the son of God who died on the cross to absolve humanity of their sins was already rampant, which is precisely what Paul wanted, after his "mysterious" trip to Arabia and the 'enlightenment" that he experienced there, as will soon made be clear to you.

Yeshua = Jesus = Isa

WRONG.  Ask any Herew speaker and he will confirm this fact.


Read the following very carefully please:

Jesus" (pronounced /ˈdʒiːzəs/) is a transliteration, occurring in a number of languages and based on the Latin Iesus, of the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēso?s), itself a Hellenisation of the Hebrew יֵשׁוּעַ (Yē??ă?) or Hebrew-Aramaic יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Yĕhō?uă?, Joshua), meaning "Yahweh delivers (or rescues)".[31] "Christ" (pronounced /ˈkraɪst/) is a title derived from the Greek Χριστός (Christ?s), meaning the "Anointed One", a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Messiah).[32][33] A "Messiah" is a king anointed at God's direction or with God's approval, and Christians identify Jesus as the one foretold by Hebrew prophets.


Esau (pronounced /ˈiːsɔː/) (Hebrew עֵשָׂו, Standard Hebrew Esav, Tiberian Hebrew ʿĒśāw; Greek: Ἡσαῦ) was the fraternal twin brother[1][2][3] of Jacob (whom God renamed Israel)?the patriarch and founder of the Israelites

For God's sake will you compare the etymology?? Do you still insist that they are the same name??


Now let's ask this question:

The Quran says that they were boasting about having crucified ISA, but the truth is they didn't.  "Shubbiha lahum".

There can be only 3 possibilities:

1) They meant to catch ISA, but they crucified someone else instead (who was made to "resemble him" ).

2) They nailed Isa to the cross, but he didn't actually die. He was comatose. He was still alive when he was brought down (it "appeared to them" that he had died). He survived, and fled with his mother to India, and is burried there somewhere.

3) There is a mixup of two persons from different eras.


Which of the above 3 is the most likely to have happened?  Is there a fourth possibility?


Peace...
To Be Continued...

[san]

I was delayed from making further posts ever since the thread turned into a debate on inheritance laws between members san and NunHoliday  

Hey i didn't start it   OK i'll keep until you finished

[herbman]

Jesus" (pronounced /ˈdʒiːzəs/) is a transliteration, occurring in a number of languages and based on the Latin Iesus, of the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēso?s), itself a Hellenisation of the Hebrew יֵשׁוּעַ (Yē??ă?) or Hebrew-Aramaic יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Yĕhō?uă?, Joshua), meaning "Yahweh delivers (or rescues)".[31] "Christ" (pronounced /ˈkraɪst/) is a title derived from the Greek Χριστός (Christ?s), meaning the "Anointed One", a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Messiah).[32][33] A "Messiah" is a king anointed at God's direction or with God's approval, and Christians identify Jesus as the one foretold by Hebrew prophets.


Esau (pronounced /ˈiːsɔː/) (Hebrew עֵשָׂו, Standard Hebrew Esav, Tiberian Hebrew ʿĒśāw; Greek: Ἡσαῦ) was the fraternal twin brother[1][2][3] of Jacob (whom God renamed Israel)?the patriarch and founder of the Israelites

Hello,

I am making some reaserch too, but I am getting blocked on the following question:
WHO IS YESHUA then?  was he a prophete?
and following your statments the the Gospel is definitly NOT the INJEEL.

regards

[Pazuzu]

WHO IS YESHUA then?  was he a prophete?

Absolutely not.

Here follows the short version of the story:

Yeshu bar nagara, son of the craftsman (or carpenter) as he is called, was an Israelite from the Davidic line, who came to Palestine some 2,000 years ago with his mother, aunt, brothers, and was later joined by his wife (Mary Magdalene). He came with the same goal in mind that his grandfather Zerbabel had: to overthrow the  Herodian Dynasty and re-establish the Kingdom of David in Judea, wherein all Isralites could live and be free from Roman rule. (He came to liberate the Jews from the tyrannical Romans and their Herodian puppets). He traveled from village to village, gathering supporters around him. Gradually, the Pharisees became aware of his movement. The Pharisees were Jews of NON-ISRAELI heritage who enjoyed certain priviledges under Roman rule, and were content with the status quo. Thus, when Jesus the troublemaker came along, he constituted a threat to their position. (These were the same Pharisees who had prevented Jesu's grandfather from attaining the same goal before). It was not in their interest to have an Israeli be declared as king. They tried to subdue him with promises and warnings, but to no avail. Finally, they conspired against him, arrested him, and presented him before Pilate. He was tried for treason and crucified. End of the story.

His loyal followers held close to his teachings and lived on with the hope that somedeay, things would change in Palestine, and they would have the opportunity to re-stablish the Unified Kingdom. These Israelites who lived in Palestine originated from Arabia. They were all descdents of the era of David and Solomon, whose kingdom was far south, in the Asir region of the Hijaz, not too far from Yemen.

Note # 1: The presence of these Israelite descendants in Palestine can be traced back to no earlier than the 5th Century B.C. It  was the result of the "Exile Years", when their ancestors (Bani Israel) had spread all over the Arabian peninsula. The Quran clearly tells us that the Exile was a punishment for their transgression; as such, they did NOT receive any messengers or anbiya during that era. They remained without messengers until the advent of Muhamad (P) who came nearly 6 centuries later, and declared himself a messenger for ALL PEOPLE. This is why Jesus could NOT have been a nabi ("prophet" as you call them),because he came during the time of the Exile.

Note # 2: The Quran clearly tells us something that the Muslims are too blind to see: That Isa, son of Maryam (The REAL "prophet") came to the Israelites at a time when:

a) They were still unified under one rule (not exiled), which means SHORTLY after Moses' time, and BEFORE the time of David. (Isa was the nephew of Moses, as I have already shown you, and as the Quran clearly states).

b) They still had the Torah with them, in its original, pure form. This is why Isa (P) told them:

{And authenticating what is between my hands of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was made unlawful to you; and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so be aware of God and obey me}...[3:50]

So this was in a time when the trace and influence of the "Torah" was still fresh in the mind of their generation, and was not yet completely lost.

Note # 3: Isa was born under a date tree, in late summer, when dates are ripe. Dates grow in warm and dry climates. Palestine was never known for having date trees back then. But the lush plains along the Asir mountains in Saudi Arabia certainly had (and still do).


Note # 4: The Quran tells us that Isa lived to middle-age (grey-haired) age and died a natural death, and was raised in honor.  Yeshu, the political trouble-maker died on the cross 2000 years ago.

So now comes the big question:  Who, or what caused this confusion??

Here's your answer:

The followers of Yeshu (Jesus) continued to multiply in number, and were being persecuted by the Pharisee Clergy. But no one was more enthuastic about persecuting them than a man named "Saul". He says it himself in his "Letters", as I will soon show you. He kept on killing them, exiling them, imprisoning them; you name it. Their movement could not be stopped. There seemed to be no solution to the headcahe they were causing and the threat they posed to the Herodian rule. So this "Saul" then received a "vision" - as he called it - of Jesus apearing to him in a dream, and telling him to go to Damascus. So he heeds the call, packs his gear, and travels eastwards to meet with an important but somewhat reclusive figure called Hannania ("Annanias"), a Jewish Rabbi of some reknown in the region. (Read the "Letters: of the NT and you will see what I'm talking about). It was there, in Damascus, that the diabolical plot of Annanias was concocted:

"You want to get rid of their movement?" He says to Saul.
"Of course!"
"Here's what you do: Go south into Arabia, and bring me the Scrolls  (in Arabic: al-ruqooq), which contain historical information + legends  about a man - a prophet - named Isa, son of Maryam. Bring them to me, and I will then tell you what you need to do".

Saul dissapears for 3 years (read the "Letters" of the OT where he describes his "journey of enlightenment"), and manages to return to Annainias with the Scrolls. These artifacts apparently contained information (no-doubt legendized by the mystic Nasaras of Arabia) about a man named Isa, who lived a thousand years earlier, was said to have been born of a virgin, and who was completely UNKNOWN to the Israelites in Palestine (the followers of Jesus the Trouble-Maker).

"Here's what you  must do" Annanias explains: "You cannot get rid of them physically, so...you corrupt their creed. You change their beliefs. You must  preach to them the TRUTH about Yeshu. He did not come to liberate them from opressive Roman rule, NO!!! He came to DIE on the cross as the son of God, to absolve ALL HUMANITY of its sins!!"

And the rest, my friends, became history...   Ananias took all that was known about Isa, son of Maryam, truths and legends combined, and dumped them onto the figure of Jesus.

There you have it: The birth of Christianity as we know it.

Saul traveled back with this new creed, changed his demeanor to "Good Christiann Soul" , changed his name to Paul, and all Hell broke loose.

Paul was by nature a very violent man. He could not have come up with an idea like that. Only a diabolical genious could concoct a plan this sinister. But Paul was convinced to try because he had nothing to lose. The true mastermind was his teacher Annanias.

At first, the followers of Jesus, whose memory was still fresh (he died barely 10 years before) refused to accept Paul's manipulations. But later on when the idea was backed by ROME itself, in all its might, when Emperor Constantine himself declared himself embracing of it, and his banning - in the Council of Nicea - of any idea, writing, or movement that contradicted Paul's idea, it propagated like the plague!! It had an effect that not even Paul could have dreamed of!

____________________

Dear herbman:

You want to do research? By all means do.

I will give you the begining of the rope, so you can start:

1) In another thread in this section entitled: "Jesus: Seperating Truth from Myth", which is on hold at the moment, I took it upon myself to bring to your attention the work of two genious men: Kamal Salibi, and Ibn Qarnas (code name of an unknown author).

Go to the thread, and start reading it. I will eventually finish it and link it to this one, so the whole picture becomes clear.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598926.0


The first, Kamal Salibi, is a historian and expert in ancient Hebrew, who has shown astonishing and thus-far irrefutable proof that there is ZERO evidence of Judaism in Palestine before the 5th Century B.C, and that the first Jews who settled there where Isrealite descendants who had traveled northwards from Arabia, and that the Kingdoms of David, Solomon, Sheba, the walled city of "Misraim" (falsely believed to be Egypt of the Nile), and ALL THE ANBIYA AND MESSENGERS MENTIONED IN THE QURAN, came form Western Arabia.

The second. Ibn Qarnas is a thinker who was able to read between the lines of the NT, and discoverd that, despite all the tampering and corruption that the Gospels suffered (which is proven from the blatant contradictions in them), a faint trace of Jesu's true identity can still be seen: He was a political figure who came seeking earthly rule and nothing more!!

Due to the diabolical machinations of Paul, and his teacher Ananias, false beliefs about Jesus were spread, and thus Christianity began as an idea to get rid of the followers of Jesus by corupting their rebelious movement by injecting it with a dose of opium (He didn't come to liberate you from Herod!! He was the son of God who died to absolve you from your sins!! can't you see that?! All you have to do is believe in this fact and you're saved!!)

What stronger opium is there? (Sin all you want! Accepting Jesus as your savior is enough to save you!! In fact, if you don't sin, then Jesus's death was in vain! )

Ask yourself: What better way to defeat a movement than by changing their creed?

There is a famous saying (by Victor Hugo was it?): "No army can defeat an idea whose time has come".
You catch my drfit?

Who could fight the idea of Jesus having been the son of God, having died on the cross for the sins of mankind, when all of ROME, with all its economic and political might was backing it???


2) You MUST read the books of Kamal Salibi.  You can find them translated to over 20 languages. They are opening peoples' eyes to the lies that our teachers and elite have been spoonfeeding us.

3) Read the "Letters of Paul" in the NT, and do some research on "Ananias of Damascus".

4) Then, read Haym Makkabi's "Paul, and the Corruption of Christianity"  (How he turned it from a political to a religious and mystical movement).

_______________________________________

Peace.

To be continued...

[Supernaut]

Interesting thread

Thank you, Pazuzu, for presenting a different and interesting take on the history of the Israelites.

[NunHolidayPseudoEidRex]

Peace,

Note # 3: Isa was born under a date tree, in late summer, when dates are ripe. Dates grow in warm and dry climates. Palestine was never known for having date trees back then. But the lush plains along the Asir mountains in Saudi Arabia certainly had (and still do).

JUDAEA CAPTA, 'Judaea conquered'.



Coin of Vespasian, showing a personification of Judaea mourning the loss of her independence under a date palm.