Jesus VS Isa

[herbman]

Salam Pazuzu , all,

I agree with some of your arguments but others are too weak to be presented, I mean like the one about the palm trees!!!!

Also I haven't read the Salibi's book, but I don't think it is all correct from what I heard, one example is the concordance he makes between cities name found in the Bible with arabian cities in Arabia; I don't think it is exact science if you know what I mean, also I think he has no archeological proofs or whatever.

Having said that, I and surely others have always been confused with Issa=Jesus, knowing Jesus is Yeshua is Yesu3 in arabic and not Issa.

Also we must all agree with the anachronism problem  between Issa and Yeshua, Issa ibnu Maryem is nephew of Aaron and therefore lived long long before Yeshua.

For Yeshua there is jewish testimony about him living around the begining of first millenium and beeing a troublemaker (for them), and was indeed not recognized by the jewish rabbi's as a prophete.

My questions to you if you can help are:
what about Esau records, I found very little about him?  Is the Injeel the book of Esau in the OT?
Who is John the baptiste?  Definitly not Yahya!

Regards

ps: In the manuscripts of Qumran, the book of Esau was the only one complete and rolled in leather.

[NunHolidayPseudoEidRex]

Peace,

The woman/wife of... 11:81 illa imraataka   ا مْ رَ أَ تَ كَ

66:10 Daraba Allahu mathalan lillatheena kafaroo imraata noohin waimraata lootin
ا مْ رَ أَ تَ    وَ ا مْ رَ أَ تَ

A woman/daughter or descendant of... 3:35 Ith qalati imraatu ا مْ رَ أَ تُ AAimrana

28:9 Waqalati imraatu ا مْ رَ أَ تُ firAAawna
And said a woman/daughter of Pharaoh: "A comfort of the eye for me and for you. Kill him not, perhaps he may be of benefit to us, or we may adopt him as a son." And they perceived not.

To give another example usually transcribed with same spelling yet completely different meaning and recital...

4:11 لِلذَّكَرِ Lildhdhakari (to the male/masculine)
54:17 لِلذِّكْرِ Lildhdhikri (to the remembrance)

The works of Flavius Josephus "Antiquities of the Jews"...

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-2.htm

5. Thermuthis was the king's daughter. She was now diverting herself by the banks of the river; and seeing a cradle borne along by the current, she sent some that could swim, and bid them bring the cradle to her. When those that were sent on this errand came to her with the cradle, and she saw the little child, she was greatly in love with it, on account of its largeness and beauty; for God had taken such great care in the formation of Moses, that he caused him to be thought worthy of bringing up, and providing for, by all those that had taken the most fatal resolutions, on account of the dread of his nativity, for the destruction of the rest of the Hebrew nation. Thermuthis bid them bring her a woman that might afford her breast to the child; yet would not the child admit of her breast, but turned away from it, and did the like to many other women. Now Miriam was by when this happened, not to appear to be there on purpose, but only as staying to see the child; and she said, "It is in vain that thou, O queen, callest for these women for the nourishing of the child, who are no way of kin to it; but still, if thou wilt order one of the Hebrew women to be brought, perhaps it may admit the breast of one of its own nation." Now since she seemed to speak well, Thermuthis bid her procure such a one, and to bring one of those Hebrew women that gave suck. So when she had such authority given her, she came back and brought the mother, who was known to nobody there. And now the child gladly admitted the breast, and seemed to stick close to it; and so it was, that, at the queen's desire, the nursing of the child was entirely intrusted to the mother.

6. Hereupon it was that Thermuthis imposed this name Mouses upon him, from what had happened when he was put into the river; for the Egyptians call water by the name of Mo, and such as are saved out of it, by the name of Uses: so by putting these two words together, they imposed this name upon him. And he was, by the confession of all, according to God's prediction, as well for his greatness of mind as for his contempt of difficulties, the best of all the Hebrews, for Abraham was his ancestor of the seventh generation. For Moses was the son of Amram, who was the son of Caath, whose father Levi was the son of Jacob, who was the son of Isaac, who was the son of Abraham. Now Moses's understanding became superior to his age, nay, far beyond that standard; and when he was taught, he discovered greater quickness of apprehension than was usual at his age, and his actions at that time promised greater, when he should come to the age of a man. God did also give him that tallness, when he was but three years old, as was wonderful. And as for his beauty, there was nobody so unpolite as, when they saw Moses, they were not greatly surprised at the beauty of his countenance; nay, it happened frequently, that those that met him as he was carried along the road, were obliged to turn again upon seeing the child; that they left what they were about, and stood still a great while to look on him; for the beauty of the child was so remarkable and natural to him on many accounts, that it detained the spectators, and made them stay longer to look upon him.

7. Thermuthis therefore perceiving him to be so remarkable a child, adopted him for her son, having no child of her own. And when one time had carried Moses to her father, she showed him to him, and said she thought to make him her successor, if it should please God she should have no legitimate child of her own; and to him, "I have brought up a child who is of a divine form, (21) and of a generous mind; and as I have received him from the bounty of the river, in , I thought proper to adopt him my son, and the heir of thy kingdom." And she had said this, she put the infant into her father's hands: so he took him, and hugged him to his breast; and on his daughter's account, in a pleasant way, put his diadem upon his head; but Moses threw it down to the ground, and, in a puerile mood, he wreathed it round, and trod upon his feet, which seemed to bring along with evil presage concerning the kingdom of Egypt. But when the sacred scribe saw this, (he was the person who foretold that his nativity would the dominion of that kingdom low,) he made a violent attempt to kill him; and crying out in a frightful manner, he said, "This, O king! this child is he of whom God foretold, that if we kill him we shall be in no danger; he himself affords an attestation to the prediction of the same thing, by his trampling upon thy government, and treading upon thy diadem. Take him, therefore, out of the way, and deliver the Egyptians from the fear they are in about him; and deprive the Hebrews of the hope they have of being encouraged by him." But Thermuthis prevented him, and snatched the child away. And the king was not hasty to slay him, God himself, whose providence protected Moses, inclining the king to spare him. He was, therefore, educated with great care. So the Hebrews depended on him, and were of good hopes great things would be done by him; but the Egyptians were suspicious of what would follow such his education. Yet because, if Moses had been slain, there was no one, either akin or adopted, that had any oracle on his side for pretending to the crown of Egypt, and likely to be of greater advantage to them, they abstained from killing him.

[Pazuzu]

I will get back to this thread and answer your questions as soon as I finish with my translation. But for now, please read the following:

(The Long Version).

                                                                       The Stage of Paul
                                                                     (The Brains and the Brawn)


? Paul was a mysterious figure about whom very little is known.
? From what we do know, he was a militant figure who worked as head of intelligence in Roman Judea, and had an insatiable enthusiasm for persecuting the followers of Jesus? purely political movement ? a movement whose members sought the opportunity to overthrow Roman rule and establish their own independent state in Palestine.
? Ananias, a diabolically brilliant Jew, was the ?brains? behind the creation of the entirely new beliefs about Jesus, which he sought to spread in order to put an end to his followers? movement.
? Paul was the ?brawn?, the tool that Ananias used, to spread these false and corrupting ideas, from which the Christianity that is rampant today was born.



Paul was indeed a shadowy figure. His actual birth date and the location of his up-bringing are not known for certain. It is for this reason that the Christian church does not encourage any talk about the history of his personal life. In fact he himself, in his letters, describes himself as being ?as crafty as a chameleon lizard?, changing his colors as the occasion saw fit. He was a Jew when around Jews, and a Roman when among Romans, so to speak.
Paul appeared suddenly in Palestine, years after the crucifixion of Jesus, whom he never saw or met in person. We know that he was born in Tarsus (present-day Syria), which was then known to be a hub for Greek pagan beliefs. He was not among the descendants of Israel; in fact he did not fully embrace Judaism until his middle years, upon whence he claimed he became a fanatic.

He was best known for his unrivaled enthusiasm for putting an end to Jesus? followers and their freedom movement. In fact, he became the head of the inquisition in Jerusalem and was charged with the task of closely monitoring their movement. He persecuted them, exiled them in large numbers, killed many of them, and put others in prison. In fact, Luke says the following about him:

?And Saul (Paul, before he changed his name) approved of their killing him. That day a severe persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout the countryside of Judea and Samaria. Devout men buried Stephen and made loud lamentation over him. But Saul (Paul) was ravaging the church by entering house after house; dragging off both men and women, he committed them to prison? [Apostles 8:1-3]

So, from what we do know about him, he was part of the Roman intelligence forces in Palestine ? so to speak, and had full authority to silence the followers of Jesus? liberation movement by whatever means possible.
In fact, this is what Paul himself declares:

?I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, educated strictly according to our ancestral law, being zealous for God, just as all of you are today. I persecuted this Way up to the point of death by binding both men and women and putting them in prison, as the high priest and the whole council of elders can testify about me. From them I also received letters to the brothers in Damascus, and I went there in order to bind those who were there and to bring them back to Jerusalem for punishment? [Apostles 22:3-5]
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                                                         Ananias Brainwashes Saul

In his letters, Saul tells of how his feelings towards Jesus changed when he (Jesus) appeared to him in a dream while he was on his way to Damascus to persecute the remaining members of the movement. It was from that very moment that the drastic ?transformation? of Saul took place, and he later became the first preacher of what was later to become Christianity as we know it today.
Here is what the New Testament (NT) says on this matter:

?Meanwhile Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any who belonged to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Now as he was going along and approaching Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, ?Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?? He asked, ?Who are you, Lord?? The reply came, ?I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But get up and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.? The men who were travelling with him stood speechless because they heard the voice but saw no one. Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; so they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. For three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank?. [Apostles 9:1-6]

According to what we read above, this alleged ?vision? took place as Saul was on his way to Damascus to persecute the remaining members of Jesus? movement who had fled from Judea. The truth of this matter is very doubtful for the simple reason that Damascus was, at the time, completely out of Rome?s jurisdiction.  It was thus very unlikely that Saul, or any other figure representing Roman authority for that matter, could have simply stormed into Damascus and arrested members of the opposition to Roman rule that were present there. This is in fact confirmed by Haim Maccabi in his book ?Paul and the Perversion of Christianity? (page 137), where he mentions that Damascus, at the time, was part of the Nabatean kingdom, ever since Emperor Caligula relinquished Roman hold over it in the year +37.  Damascus was ruled by a maniacal Arab monarch known as ?Al-Hareth?, who was never known to make any compromise as far as his sovereignty or authority was concerned. It was very unlikely that Al-Hareth, who was an enemy of Rome, could allow a figure of Roman authority to march all the way from Judea, and persecute anyone who lived in his domain.

Yet understanding what exactly happened in Damascus holds the key to grasping how Christianity as we know it today was born. For it was upon Saul?s return from Damascus, that he began to preach the new beliefs about Jesus. This new creed held that Jesus hadn?t come to liberate the Israeli Jews from foreign rule and establish an independent state for them, as Jesus himself had claimed when he told the Canaanite Jewish woman who came asking him to ?heal? her child:  ?I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?. [Matthew 15:24]  (Meaning: the kingdom that Jesus envisioned was for the Israeli Jews only ? a statement clearly smacking of political racism). But rather that Jesus had come to absolve all of humanity from their sins by dying on the cross, and that the kingdom he wished to establish was in Heaven, not on Earth. This idea served as opium to appease the people ? the followers of Jesus at their foremost ? so they would no longer entertain any rebellious ideas towards Roman rule.

This drastic turn of events begs the following question:  ?How could Saul, who believed that violence and physical extermination were the most effective ways to silence the followers of Jesus, transform into a devious manipulator, and preach a new creed of ?peace and love?, whose effect on the movement was far more destructive than any force of arms or physical extermination??

The answer to this question is hidden within the folds of the NT?s pages ? in the letters of the apostles to be precise ? and anyone who examines these letters with an open mind, and reads between the lines, so to speak, will surely find the answer.

In Saul?s alleged ?vision?, we find that the ?Lord? Jesus asked him to go to Damascus and await further instructions there. Let us see what the NT itself says:

?I asked, ?What am I to do, Lord?? The Lord said to me, ?Get up and go to Damascus; there you will be told everything that has been assigned to you to do.? Since I could not see because of the brightness of that light, those who were with me took my hand and led me to Damascus.  A certain Ananias, who was a devout man according to the law and well spoken of by all the Jews living there, came to me; and standing beside me, he said, ?Brother Saul, regain your sight!? In that very hour I regained my sight and saw him. Then he said, ?The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear his own voice; for you will be his witness to all the world of what you have seen and heard. And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.? [Apostles 22:10-16]

The above passage asserts ? from the mouth of Saul himself - that it was not Jesus who told Saul what was to be done, nor was it he who instructed him as to the nature of the new preaching. What happened was that Saul met another Jewish man of some renown, who went by the name of Ananias. This Jewish man, citizen of Damascus, which was then a part of Cilicia, also did not wish to witness the rise of an independent kingdom for the Israelites in Palestine, and wanted to put an end to the freedom movement of Jesus? followers. This Ananias had the patience, the intelligence, and the craftiness to know exactly which approach was most effective, for he had been closely monitoring the activities of the Roman authorities in their hunt for members of the movement. He understood full well that neither physical extermination, nor imprisonment could weaken their resolve; on the contrary, such actions would only increase peoples? sympathy towards the movement, and possibly draw more members to it! So he concocted a devious, subtle, but more effective way to silence it, by corrupting the movement to its very core. Ananias also understood that if there was ever anyone who was qualified to carry out this diabolical task, anyone with the enthusiasm and energy to see it done, it was none other than Saul himself.

Here is another passage from the NT, asserting that Ananias also saw Jesus in a vision, and told Saul that he had been chosen by the Lord to carry out the task:

?Now there was a disciple in Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, ?Ananias.? He answered, ?Here I am, Lord.? The Lord said to him, ?Get up and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul. At this moment he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.? But Ananias answered, ?Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints in Jerusalem; and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who invoke your name.? But the Lord said to him, ?Go, for he is an instrument whom I have chosen to bring my name before Gentiles and kings and before the people of Israel; I myself will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.? So Ananias went and entered the house. He laid his hands on Saul and said, ?Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on your way here, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.? And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and his sight was restored. Then he got up and was baptized, and after taking some food, he regained his strength? [Apostles 9: 10-19]

Now the truth is beginning to emerge. It was Ananias, a Jewish priest, who brainwashed Saul and put him under the illusion that the ?God of our ancestors?, as Ananias himself labeled him - meaning the ancient god of the Jews, NOT Jesus ? had chosen Saul to preach new ideas to the people concerning Jesus? true identity and mission. These new ideas were of course completely unheard of and unfathomable to the followers of Jesus? movement at the time.
It was not a vision that Saul saw which prompted him to change his approach towards Jesus? followers, but rather it was his trip to Damascus, whether for the purpose of persecuting members of the movement ? as he claimed ? or to accept a personal invitation from Ananias. This change in approach could not have come from Saul himself, who was, by nature a man of violent action. It must have been planted in his head by one who was more devious. Saul was simply the tool to carry out the diabolical plan of the architect Ananias.
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                                                                      The Plan

The ?brainwashing? of Saul required three years to be accomplished, and was orchestrated in several stages.

? Stage 1: The Conviction:

Ananias had to convince Saul, the prime persecutor of Jesus? followers, that Jesus had appeared to him in a dream, and was very perturbed because of this persecution, and asked him to cease and desist. He also had to convince Saul that he (Saul) was chosen by the God of the Jewish ancestors to preach some new principles about Jesus, who had died before being able to deliver them to his followers.
Saul truly believed that Ananias had seen Jesus in a dream, so he announced his readiness to cease all forms of persecution of Jesus? followers, and devote his entire life to absolve himself of the horrors he had perpetrated against them. Ananias brainwashed Saul into unquestionably believing that he was doing a service to the ancestral God of the Jews. It was thus that Saul became like soft dough, easily manipulated by Ananias.  

? Stage 2: The Birth of a New Creed:

Ananias came to the realization that the most effective way to put an end to any rebellious threat against Roman authority in Palestine, was to assign to Jesus ? the man who had come into Palestine as a stranger, and whose father was hence unknown to the people of Judea ? certain attributes that some Jews had assigned, in bygone days, to a true messenger of God by the name of Isa, who had been sent to the Israelites in Arabia. Many legends had seeped into the story of Isa, no doubt the result of embellishments by mystics from among the Nasara, throughout the many centuries separating Jesus? time from Isa?s. Among these legends that were rampant at the time of Saul?s visit to Damascus (and his trip further south into Arabia ? as we shall soon see), was that this Isa was the son of God.
And since the goal of this new creed was to silence the rebellious movement of Jesus? followers in Judea, and surrounding territories, Ananias saw it fit to make those followers believe that Jesus hadn?t come to establish an Earthly and independent state for the Israelites; but rather that he was the son of God, who had come to die on the cross to absolve all of humanity of their sins, and establish for them a kingdom in Heaven.

As such, Ananias had to spoon-feed Saul the creed of the Nasara, which was completely unknown to Saul. All that remained of this creed was preserved in scriptures penned in one of the languages of Arabia (most probably Aramaic), which was also alien to Saul, who was born in Tarsus (Asia Minor) and had lived all his life in Palestine, whose inhabitants spoke Greek or Roman. It is highly likely that Ananias needed more information about the Nasara?s beliefs, and so he sent Saul on a trip to Arabia, to salvage what could be salvaged of written scriptures, without any fear that Saul might discover the truth of Ananias? scheme, for he was completely oblivious as to the content of these scriptures he was sent to retrieve.
And so it was that Saul did indeed travel to Arabia, as he himself sates:

?But when God, who had set me apart before I was born and called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, so that I might proclaim him among the Gentiles, I did not confer with any human being, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were already apostles before me, but I went away at once into Arabia, and afterwards I returned to Damascus? [Galatians 1:15-18]

Now comes the question: What did Saul do in Arabia? What was the purpose of his trip there, and his ?mysterious? disappearance for three years in that alien land?

Christian scholars themselves habe been, and continue to be baffled by this. Most of them claim that Saul made the trip to that far away land in order to find peace and tranquility, to clear himself from the turmoil burning within him, and to better condition himself for his mission. This of course is mere speculation. If the purpose was to ?condition? himself, or be at peace, he might well have travelled to some secluded grove, or wilderness place a day?s march from Damascus.

Instead, he travelled over 1000 kilometers into Arabia, which means there must have been a truly important purpose to the trip. Although Paul didn?t state this purpose clearly, we need to read in between the lines and to look at the bigger picture in order to deduce what the purpose of the trip was.

In any case, it seems that Saul returned from Arabia with some scrolls, which he immediately delivered to Ananias. In his excellent book ?The Search for Jesus?, Kamal Salibi states the following:  ?It is likely that what Saul found in Arabia and returned with to Damascus were ?the Ruqooq?, (parchments of animal skin) which he mentioned in his second letter sent from his prison in Rome to his ?beloved son? Timothy in his later days?.

The letter that Salibi is referring to is the following:

?Do your best to come to me soon, for Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica; Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia. Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful in my ministry. I have sent Tychicus to Ephesus. When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, also the books, and above all the parchments. Alexander the coppersmith did me great harm; the Lord will pay him back for his deeds. You also must beware of him, for he strongly opposed our message?
[2 Timothy 4: 9-13]

? Stage 3: The Teaching:

The most obvious proof we have to support the claim that it was Ananias who planted in Saul?s head the idea that he had been chosen by God to bear the message of the new principles concerning Jesus, is that upon completing his mission in Arabia, Saul did not immediately head towards Jerusalem to begin his preaching because, up until that point, he still had no idea what it was that he had preach. Instead, he returned to Damascus first, to deliver to Ananias the parchments he had recovered from the land of the Nasara.  Ananias studied these parchments extensively for three years, and finally decided to attribute to Jesus  all that the Nasara believed about Isa, the son of Maryam, a true messenger who had been sent by God to the Israelites of Arabia, many centuries before. He also embellished the story with some pagan beliefs that were rampant in Judea and Syria at the time. Saul remained in Damascus for three years, taking Ananias? teachings to heart, as he himself asserts in his letters.

? Stage 4: The Preaching:

After three years of training for his new responsibility under the tutelage if Ananias, Saul changed his name to Paul - a necessary precaution ? for the people of Jerusalem needed to forget the old ?Saul?, whose name was symbolic of the violent persecution of Jesus? followers.
Indeed Paul actually began his very first preaching while still in Damascus, but it seemed that the Jewish minority in that city did not like what they heard, and conspired to kill Paul. Eventually, with the help of Ananias? men, he was rather comically smuggled out of Damascus? walls in a basket, by night.

?For several days he was with the disciples in Damascus, and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, ?He is the Son of God.? All who heard him were amazed and said, ?Is not this the man who made havoc in Jerusalem among those who invoked this name? And has he not come here for the purpose of bringing them bound before the chief priests?? Saul became increasingly more powerful and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Messiah.
After some time had passed, the Jews plotted to kill him, but their plot became known to Saul. They were watching the gates day and night so that they might kill him; but his disciples took him by night and let him down through an opening in the wall, lowering him in a basket.? [Apostles 9:20-25]

Paul then went immediately to Jerusalem, to meet with Jesus? brothers and disciples, who by that time were lead by Jacob, and tried unsuccessfully to get them to abandon their beliefs concerning Jesus. Paul stayed in Jerusalem for a mere fifteen days, before he was forced to re-direct his course towards Cilicia again:

?Then after three years I did go up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and stayed with him for fifteen days; but I did not see any other apostle except James the Lord?s brother. In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie! Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia, and I was still unknown by sight to the churches of Judea that are in Christ; they only heard it said, ?The one who formerly was persecuting us is now proclaiming the faith he once tried to destroy.? And they glorified God because of me.? [Galatians 1:18-24]

The real reason for Paul?s hasty departure from Jerusalem was no doubt the instruction of Ananias, who clearly did not want him to spread the ?New Faith? among Jews. Proof of this fact comes straight from Paul?s mouth:

?After I had returned to Jerusalem and while I was praying in the temple, I fell into a trance and saw Jesus saying to me, ?Hurry and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about me.? And I said, ?Lord, they themselves know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you. And while the blood of your witness Stephen was shed, I myself was standing by, approving and keeping the coats of those who killed him.? Then he said to me, ?Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.??  [Apostles 22:17-21]

This is another example of Paul?s tendency to claim these ?visions?. It is very likely that it wasn?t Jesus whom he saw, but rather an actual man ? a messenger from Ananias, telling him to return at ounce to Cilicia. The wisdom of starting the preaching of the ?New Faith? in the non-Jewish land of Cilicia was completely oblivious to the short-sighted Paul, but not so to the devious Ananias, whose goal was to quell a rebellious movement, not spread a new religion among the Jews which might endanger their ancient beliefs!
Thus Cilicia was a wise choice for the following reasons:

1) It was Saul?s country of birth, and most of its inhabitants held Greek or pagan beliefs. (Which explains why in Paul?s ?vision?, Jesus told him to go send word to the Gentiles?).
2) If some of the inhabitants of Cilicia, a country that is relatively far from Jerusalem, had heard of Jesus? failed attempt at rebellion against the Romans, the memory of those events must have, by that time, become blurry in their minds, because over 10 years had passed since his crucifixion. And because most of Cilicia?s inhabitants were gentiles, the country constituted a perfect environment for the spread of beliefs about the identity of Jesus that were drastically different from what was already known. Ananias knew that it would not be long before this new creed would spread, its influence would eventually reach Jerusalem, and it would be nurtured at the expense of the people forgetting Jesus? true identity and the goal he had come to Judea to achieve. This is exactly what Ananias wanted all along.

And so it was that Paul?s preaching spread all around the pagan world, and people gradually began to hear about a man named Jesus, who was allegedly born in Palestine some 40 years earlier, from a virgin mother, and was God?s only begotten son. This man lived as an ordinary human among humans so that his father, God, could better learn the nature of His creations. (According to Paul, God could not understand why humans were prone to sin, ever since Adam ate the fruit of the Forbidden Tree, so He sent His son to live among them, in order to better understand their nature). God eventually became convinced that humans could not refrain from committing sin, because it was in their very nature to do so. God then had to ?correct His mistake?, since He could not punish his creations for committing something that was in their very nature. So He made His only begotten son die on the cross in order to absolve humanity of its sins.

Such was the creed founded by the diabolical Ananias, and spoon-fed to Paul: No longer could good deeds and kindness to fellow man pave the way to Paradise for humanity; rather it was belief in Jesus as the son of God and his sacrifice on the cross alone that became the key to salvation. Such was the destructive opium that he subtly injected to curb the determination of Jesus? followers.

And so Paul began preaching a new creed that was based on attributing falsehoods to Jesus -claims that the man never made. This was how Christianity was born.

For three centuries, most people did not accept Paul?s ideas, and secretly resisted them. In fact, Paul?s ideas would gain leverage only when Roman Emperor Constantine declared his embracing of Paul?s creed in the beginning of the 4th Century A.D, and whence he embellished the belief by introducing into it many pagan elements which were rampant in the region at that time, to make it more acceptable and attractive to the gentiles. It was this Christianity, propelled by the political and economical might of Rome, which eventually flourished far beyond the wildest dreams or intentions of Ananias and his pupil.

________________

To be continued.

[herbman]

I found in a french book, that there was some gossip going around about "the virgin mother of Isaiah" in the begining of christianity!

here are the references:

Author: Renan, Ernest, 1823-1892
Subject: Paul, the Apostle, Saint
Publisher: Paris, Michel Lévy frères
Year: 1879
Possible copyright status: NOT_IN_COPYRIGHT
Language: French
Digitizing sponsor: Google
Book from the collections of: Oxford University
Collection: europeanlibraries

http://www.archive.org/details/histoiredesorig01renagoog

Peace

[ihsan]

Salam aleikum w.r.w.b.

Dear Members,

It's always a belssing to exchange some ideas. The truth is out there and we must find it. There are some interesting insights in the this topic. I can not comment on them yet but Joshua might have been son of Mary. He is the one who become King of the Jews after Moses death. He is the one who leads the fight against the people of the city. BUT there is a problem with this theory. Mary grew up in the Temple under the care of Zacharia. I don't think the whole world has been fooled and even base their counting on the years on a lie.

Mary is called " O sister of Aaron" by HER PEOPLE not by God. It's a QUOTATION. And why do her people call her that? Because she used to reside in the Temple and live there and serve their. So I think her people mean "O sister of the PRIESTS" because in Christianity Aaron was the first High Priest. Also some christian sources call the father of Mary JOACHIM. I do not know if Imran was a common name and what it means but maybe it DOES not MEAN AMRAM but JOACHIM. It might be also a refference like Dhul Qanain refers to Cyrus The Great or Dhul Kifl to Yunus. Anyway here is the Christian Story which resembles much to the Quran Story:

The Evangelium of James
Very Glorious Mother of Jesus Christ

IN THE RECORDS OF THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL was Joachim, a man rich exceedingly; and he brought his offerings double, saying: There shall be of my superabundance to all the people, and there shall be the offering for my forgiveness to the Lord for a propitiation for me. For the great day of the Lord was at hand, and the sons of Israel were bringing their offerings. And there stood over against him Rubim, saying: It is not meet for thee first to bring thine offerings, because thou hast not made seed in Israel. And Joachim was exceedingly grieved, and went away to the registers of the twelve tribes of the people, saying: I shall see the registers of the twelve tribes of Israel, as to whether I alone have not made seed in Israel. And he searched, and found that all the righteous had raised up seed in Israel. And he called to mind the patriach Abraham, that in the last day God gave him a son Isaac. And Joachim was exceedingly grieved, and did not come into the presence of his wife; but he retired to the desert, and there pitched his tent, and fasted forty days and forty nights, saying in himself: I will not go down either for food or for drink until the Lord my God shall look upon me, and prayer shall be my food and drink.

2. And his wife Anna mourned in two mournings, and lamented in two lamentations, saying: I shall bewail my widowhood; I shall bewail my childlessness. And the great day of the Lord was at hand; and Judith her maid-servant said: How long dost thou humiliate thy soul? Behold, the great day of the Lord is at hand, and it is unlawful for thee to mourn. But take this head-band, which the woman that made it gave to me; for it is not proper that I should wear it, because I am a maid-servant, and it has a royal appearance. And Anna said: Depart from me; for I have not done such things, and the Lord has brought me very low. I fear that some wicked person has given it to thee, and thou hast come to make me a sharer in thy sin. And Judith said: Why should I curse thee, seeing that the Lord hath shut thy womb, so as not to give thee fruit in Israel? And Anna was grieved exceedingly, and put off her garments of mourning, and cleaned her head, and put on her wedding garments, and about the ninth hour went down to the garden to walk. And she saw a laurel, and sat under it, and prayed to the Lord, saying: O God of our fathers, bless me and hear my prayer, as Thou didst bless the womb of Sarah, and didst give her a son Isaac.

3. And gazing towards the heaven, she saw a sparrow's nest in the laurel, and made a lamentation in herself, saying: Alas! who begot me? and what womb produced me? because I have become a curse in the presence of the sons of Israel, and I have been reproached, and they have driven me in derision out of the temple of the Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like the fowls of the heaven, because even the fowls of the heaven are productive before Thee, O Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like the beasts of the earth, because even the beasts of the earth are productive before Thee, O Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like these waters, because even these waters are productive before Thee, O Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like this earth, because even the earth bringeth forth its fruits in season, and blesseth Thee, O Lord.

4. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by, saying: Anna, Anna, the Lord hath heard thy prayer, and thou shalt conceive, and shall bring forth; and thy seed shall be spoken of in all the world. And Anna said: As the Lord my God liveth, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God; and it shall minister to Him in holy things all the days of its life. And, behold, two angels came, saying to her: Behold, Joachim thy husband is coming with his flocks. For an angel of the Lord went down to him, saying: Joachim, Joachim, the Lord God hath heard thy prayer Go down hence; for, behold, thy wife Anna shall conceive. And Joachim went down and called his shepherds, saying: Bring me hither ten she-lambs without spot or blemish, and they shall be for the Lord my God; and bring me twelve tender calves, and they shall be for the priests and the elders; and a hundred goats for all the people. And, behold, Joachim came with his flocks; and Anna stood by the gate, and saw Joachim coming, and she ran anti hung upon his neck, saying: Now I know that the Lord God hath blessed me exceedingly; for, behold the widow no longer a widow, and I the childless shall conceive. And Joachim rested the first day in his house.

5. And on the following day he brought his offerings, saying in himself: If the Lord God has been rendered gracious to me, the plate on the priest's forehead will make it manifest to me. And Joachim brought his offerings, and observed attentively the priest's plate when he went up to the altar of the Lord, and he saw no sin in himself. And Joachim said: Now I know that the Lord has been gracious unto me, and has remitted all my sins. And he went down from the temple of the Lord justified, and departed to his own house. And her months were fulfilled, and in the ninth month Anna brought forth. And she said to the midwife: What have I brought forth? and she said: A girl. And said Anna: My soul has been magnified this day. And she laid her down. And the days having been fulfilled, Anna was purified, and gave the breast to the child, and called her name Mary.

6. And the child grew strong day by day; and when she was six months old, her mother set her on the ground to try whether she could stand, and she walked seven steps and came into her bosom; and she snatched her up, saying: As the Lord my God liveth, thou shall not walk on this earth until I bring thee into the temple of the Lord. And she made a sanctuary in her bed-chamber, and allowed nothing common or unclean to pass through her. And she called the undefiled daughters of the Hebrews, and they led her astray. And when she was a year old, Joachim made a great feast, and invited the priests, and the scribes, and the elders, and all the people of Israel. And Joachim brought the child to the priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever. And her mother snatched her up, and took her into the sanctuary of her bed-chamber, and gave her the breast. And Anna made a song to the Lord God, saying: I will sing a song to the Lord my God, for He hath looked upon me, and hath taken away the reproach of mine enemies; and the Lord hath given the the fruit of His righteousness, singular in its kind, and richly endowed before Him. Who will tell the sons of Rubim that Anna gives suck? Hear, hear, ye twelve tribes of Israel, that Anna gives suck. And she laid her to rest in the bed-chamber of her sanctuary, and went out and ministered unto them. And when the supper was ended, they went down rejoicing, and glorifying the God of Israel.

7. And her months were added to the child. And the child was two years old, and Joachim said: Let us take her up to the temple of the Lord, that we may pay the vow that we have vowed, lest perchance the Lord send to us, and our offering be not received. And Anna said: Let us wait for the third year, in order that the child may not seek for father or mother. And Joachim said: So let us wait. And the child was three years old, and Joachim said: Invite the daughters of the Hebrews that are undefiled, and let them take each a lamp, and let them stand with the lamps burning, that the child may not turn back, and her heart be captivated from the temple of the Lord. And they did so until they went up into the temple of the Lord. And the priest received her, and kissed her, and blessed her, saying: The Lord has magnified thy name in all generations. In thee, on the last of the days, the Lord will manifest His redemption to the sons of Israel. And he set her down upon the third step of the altar, and the Lord God sent grace upon her; and she danced with her feet, and all the house of Israel loved her.

8. And her parents went down marvelling, and praising the Lord God, because the child had not turned back. And Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there, and she received food from the hand of an angel. And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of the priests, saying: Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, test perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord? And they said to the high priest: Thou standest by the altar of the Lord; go in, and pray concerning her; and whatever the Lord shall manifest unto thee, that also will we do. And the high priest went in, taking the robe with the twelve bells into the holy of holies; and he prayed concerning her. And behold an angel of the Lord stood by him, saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias, go out and assemble the widowers of the people, and let them bring each his rod; and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went out through all the circuit of Judaea, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all ran.

9. And Joseph, throwing away his axe, went out to meet them; and when they had assembled, they went away to the high priest, taking with them their rods. And he, taking the rods of all of them, entered into the temple, and prayed; and having ended his prayer, he took the rods and came out, and gave them to them: but there was no sign in them, and Joseph took his rod last; and, behold, a dove came out of the rod, and flew upon Joseph's head. And the priest said to Joseph, Thou hast been chosen by lot to take into thy keeping the virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel. And the priest said to Joseph: Fear the Lord thy God, and remember what the Lord did to Dathan, and Abiram, and Korah; how the earth opened, and they were swallowed up on account of their contradiction. And now fear, O Joseph, lest the same things happen in thy house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her into his keeping. And Joseph said to Mary: Behold, I have received thee from the temple of the Lord; and now I leave thee in my house, and go away to build my buildings, and I shall come to thee. The Lord will protect thee.

10. And there was a council of the priests, saying: Let us make a veil for the temple of the Lord. And the priest said: Call to me the undefiled virgins of the family of David. And the officers went away, and sought, and found seven virgins. And the priest remembered the child Mary, that she was of the family of David, and undefiled before God. And the officers went away and brought her. And they brought them into the temple of the Lord. And the priest said: Choose for me by lot who shall spin the gold, and the white, and the fine linen, and the silk, and the blue, and the scarlet, and the true purple. And the true purple and the scarlet fell to the lot of Mary, and she took them, and went away to her house. And at that time Zacharias was dumb, and Samuel was in his place until the time that Zacharias spake. And Mary took the scarlet, and span it.

11. And she took the pitcher, and went out to fill it with water. And, behold, a voice saying: Hail, thou who hast received grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women! And she looked round, on the right hand and on the left, to see whence this voice came. And she went away, trembling, to her house, and put down the pitcher; and taking the purple, she sat down on her seat, and drew it out. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood before her, saying: Fear not, Mary; for thou hast found grace before the Lord of all, and thou shalt conceive, according to His word. And she hearing, reasoned with herself, saying: Shall I conceive by the Lord, the living God? and shall I bring forth as every woman brings forth? And the angel of the Lord said: Not so, Mary; for the power of the Lord shall overshadow thee: ******************************************************************. And thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins. And Mary said: Behold, the servant of the Lord before His face: let it be unto me according to thy word.

12. And she made the purple and the scarlet, and took them to the priest. And the priest blessed her, and said: Mary, the Lord God hath magnified thy name, and thou shall be blessed in all the generations of the earth. And Mary, with great joy, went away to Elizabeth her kinswoman, and knocked at the door. And when Elizabeth heard her, she threw away the scarlet, and ran to the door, and opened it; and seeing Mary, she blessed her, and said: Whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? for, behold, that which is in me leaped and blessed thee. But Mary had forgotten the mysteries of which the archangel Gabriel had spoken, and gazed up into heaven, and said: Who am I, O Lord, that all the generations of the earth should bless me? And she remained three months with Elizabeth; and day by day she grew bigger. And Mary being afraid, went away to her own house, and hid herself from the sons of Israel. And she was sixteen years old when these mysteries happened.

13. And she was in her sixth month; and, behold, Joseph came back from his building, and, entering into his house, he discovered that she was big with child. And he smote his face, and threw himself on the ground upon the sackcloth, and wept bitterly, saying: With what face shall I look upon the Lord my God? and what prayer shall I make about this maiden? because I received her a virgin out of the temple of the Lord, and I have not watched over her. Who is it that has hunted me down? Who has done this evil thing in my house, and defiled the virgin? Has not the history of Adam been repeated in me? For just as Adam was in the hour of his singing praise, and the serpent came, and found Eve alone, and completely deceived her, so it has happened to me also. And Joseph stood up from the sackcloth, and called Mary, and said to her: O thou who hast been cared for by God, why hast thou done this and forgotten the Lord thy God? Why hast thou brought low thy soul, thou that wast brought up in the holy of holies, and that didst receive food from the hand of an angel? And she wept bitterly, saying: I am innocent, and have known no man. And Joseph said to her: Whence then is that which is in thy womb? And she said: As the Lord my God liveth, I do not know whence it is to me.

14. And Joseph was greatly afraid, and retired from her, and considered what he should do in regard to her. And Joseph said: If I conceal her sin, I find myself fighting against the law of the Lord; and if I expose her to the sons of Israel, I am afraid lest that which is in her be from an angel, and I shall be found giving up innocent blood to the doom of death. What then shall I do with her? I will put her away from me secretly. And night came upon him; and, behold, an angel of the Lord appears to him in a dream, saying: Be not afraid for this maiden, for that which is in her is of the Holy Spirit; and she will bring forth a Son, and thou shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins. And Joseph arose from sleep, and glorified the God of Israel, who had given him this grace; and he kept her.

15. And Annas the scribe came to him, and said: Why hast thou not appeared in our assembly? And Joseph said to him: Because I was weary from my journey, and rested the first day. And he turned, and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest? and said to him: Joseph, whom thou didst vouch for, has committed a grievous crime. And the priest said: How so? And he said: He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord, and has married her by stealth, and has not revealed it to the sons of Israel. And the priest answering, said: Has Joseph done this? Then said Annas the scribe: Send officers, and thou wilt find the virgin with child. And the officers went away, and found it as he had said; and they brought her along with Joseph to the tribunal. And the priest said: Mary, why hast thou done this? and why hast thou brought thy soul low, and forgotten the Lord thy God? Thou that wast reared in the holy of holies, and that didst receive food from the hand of an angel, and didst hear the hymns, and didst dance before Him, why hast thou done this? And she wept bitterly, saying: As the Lord my God liveth, I am pure before Him, and know not a man. And the priest said to Joseph: Why hast thou done this? And Joseph said: As the Lord liveth, I am pure concerning her. Then said the priest: Bear not false witness, but speak the truth. Thou hast married her by stealth, and hast not revealed it to the sons of Israel, and hast not bowed thy head under the strong hand, that thy seed might be blessed. And Joseph was silent.

16. And the priest said: Give up the virgin whom thou didst receive out of the temple of the Lord. And Joseph burst into tears. And the priest said: I will give you to drink of the water of the ordeal of the Lord, and He shall make manifest your sins in your eyes. And the priest took the water, and gave Joseph to drink and sent him away to the hill-country; and he returned unhurt. And he gave to Mary also to drink, and sent her away to the hill-country; and she returned unhurt. And all the people wondered that sin did not appear in them. And the priest said: If the Lord God has not made manifest your sins, neither do I judge you. And he sent them away. And Joseph took Mary, and went away to his own house, rejoicing and glorifying the God of Israel.

17. And there was an order from the Emperor Augustus, that all in Bethlehem of Judaea should be enrolled. And Joseph said: I shall enrol my sons, but what shall I do with this maiden? How shall I enrol her? As my wife? I am ashamed. As my daughter then? But all the sons of Israel know that she is not my daughter. The day of the Lord shall itself bring it to pass as the Lord will. And he saddled the ass, and set her upon it; and his son led it, and Joseph followed. And when they had come within three miles, Joseph turned and saw her sorrowful; and he said to himself: Likely that which is in her distresses her. And again Joseph turned and saw her laughing. And he said to her: Mary, how is it that I see in thy face at one time laughter, at another sorrow? And Mary said to Joseph: Because I see two peoples with my eyes; the one weeping and lamenting, and the other rejoicing and exulting. And they came into the middle of the road, and Mary said to him: Take me down from off the ass, for that which is in me presses to come forth. And he took her down from off the ass, and said to her: Whither shall I lead thee, and cover thy disgrace? for the place is desert.

18. And he found a cave there, and led her into it; and leaving his two sons beside her, he went out to seek a widwife in the district of Bethlehem. And I Joseph was walking, and was not walking; and I looked up into the sky, and saw the sky astonished; and I looked up to the pole of the heavens, and saw it standing, and the birds of the air keeping still. And I looked down upon the earth, and saw a trough lying, and work-people reclining: and their hands were in the trough. And those that were eating did not eat, and those that were rising did not carry it up, and those that were conveying anything to their mouths did not convey it; but the faces of all were looking upwards. And I saw the sheep walking, and the sheep stood still; and the shepherd raised his hand to strike them, and his hand remained up. And I looked upon the current of the river, and I saw the mouths of the kids resting on the water and not drinking, and all things in a moment were driven from their course.

19. And I saw a woman coming down from the hill-country, and she said to me: O man, whither art thou going? And I said: I am seeking an Hebrew midwife. And she answered and said unto me: Art thou of Israel? And I said to her: Yes. And she said: And who is it that is bringing forth in the cave? And I said: A woman betrothed to me. And she said to me: Is she not thy wife? And I said to her: It is Mary that was reared in the temple of the Lord, and I obtained her by lot as my wife. And yet she is not my wife, but has conceived of the Holy Spirit. And the widwife said to him: Is this true? And Joseph said to her: Come and see. And the midwife went away with him. And they stood in the place of the cave, and behold a luminous cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said: My soul has been magnified this day, because mine eyes have seen strange things -- because salvation has been brought forth to Israel. And immediately the cloud disappeared out of the cave, and a great light shone in the cave, so that the eyes could not bear it. And in a little that light gradually decreased, until the infant appeared, and went and took the breast from His mother Mary. And the midwife cried out, and said: This is a great day to me, because I have seen this strange sight. And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to thee: a virgin has brought forth -- a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God liveth, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.

20. And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show thyself; for no small controversy has arisen about thee. And Salome put in her finger, and cried out, and said: Woe is me for mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God; and, behold, my hand is dropping off as if burned with fire. And she bent her knees before the Lord, saying: O God of my fathers, remember that I am the seed of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; do not make a show of me to the sons of Israel, but restore me to the poor; for Thou knowest, O Lord, that in Thy name I have performed my services, and that I have received my reward at Thy hand. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by her, saying to her: Salome, Salome, the Lord hath heard thee. Put thy hand to the infant, and carry it, and thou wilt have safety and joy. And Salome went and carried it, saying: I will worship Him, because a great King has been born to Israel. And, behold, Salome was immediately cured, and she went forth out of the cave justified. And behold a voice saying: Salome, Salome, tell not the strange things thou hast seen, until the child has come into Jerusalem.

21. And, behold, Joseph was ready to go into Judaea. And there was a great commotion in Bethlehem of Judaea, for Magi came, saying: Where is he that is born king of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and have come to worship him. And when Herod heard, he was much disturbed, and sent officers to the Magi. And he sent for the priests, and examined them, saying: How is it written about the Christ? where is He to be born? And they said: In Bethlehem of Judaea, for so it is written. And he sent them away. And he examined the Magi, saying to them: What sign have you seen in reference to the king that has been born? And the Magi said: We have seen a star of great size shining among these stars, and obscuring their light, so that the stars did not appear; and we thus knew that a king has been born to Israel, and we have come to worship him. And Herod said: Go and seek him; and if you find him, let me know, in order that I also may go and worship him. And the Magi went out. And, behold, the star which they had seen in the east went before them until they came to the cave, and it stood over the top of the cave. And the Magi saw the infant with His mother Mary; and they brought forth from their bag gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. And having been warned by the angel not to go into Judaea, they went into their own country by another road.

22. And when Herod knew that he had been mocked by the Magi, in a rage he sent murderers, saying to them: Slay the children from two years old and under. And Mary, having heard that the children were being killed, was afraid, and took the infant and swaddled Him, and put Him into an ox-stall. And Elizabeth, having heard that they were searching for John, took him and went up into the hill-country, and kept looking where to conceal him. And there was no place of concealment. And Elizabeth, groaning with a loud voice, says: O mountain of God, receive mother and child. And immediately the mountain was cleft, and received her. And a light shone about them, for an angel of the Lord was with them, watching over them.

23. And Herod searched for John, and sent officers to Zacharias, saying: Where hast thou hid thy son? And he, answering, said to them: I am the servant of God in holy things, and I sit constantly in the temple of the Lord: I do not know where my son is. And the officers went away, and reported all these things to Herod. And Herod was enraged, and said: His son is destined to be king over Israel. And he sent to him again, saying: Tell the truth; where is thy son? for thou knowest that thy life is in my hand. And Zacharias said: I am God's martyr, if thou sheddest my blood; for the Lord will receive my spirit, because thou sheddest innocent blood at the vestibule of the temple of the Lord. And Zacharias was murdered about daybreak. And the sons of Israel did not know that he had been murdered.

24. But at the hour of the salutation the priests went away, and Zacharias did not come forth to meet them with a blessing, according to his custom. And the priests stood waiting for Zacharias to salute him at the prayer, and to glorify the Most High. And he still delaying, they were all afraid. But one of them ventured to go in, and he saw clotted blood beside the altar; and he heard a voice saying: Zacharias has been murdered, and his blood shall not be wiped up until his avenger come. And hearing this saying, he was afraid, and went out and told it to the priests. And they ventured in, and saw what had happened; and the fretwork of the temple made a wailing noise, and they rent their clothes from the top even to the bottom. And they found not his body, but they found his blood turned into stone. And they were afraid, and went out and reported to the people that Zacharias had been murdered. And all the tribes of the people heard, and mourned, and lamented for him three days and three nights. And after the three days, the priests consulted as to whom they should put in his place; and the lot fell upon Simeon. For it was he who had been warned by the Holy Spirit that he should not see death until he should see the Christ in the flesh.

And I James that wrote this history in Jerusalem, a commotion having arisen when Herod died, withdrew myself to the wilderness until the commotion in Jerusalem ceased, glorifying the Lord God, who had given me the gift and the wisdom to write this history. And grace shall be with them that fear our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom be glory to ages of ages. Amen.

[ihsan]

The Salibi theory is interesting....The images of the land look very beautifull:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPMW_JDt1z0

[ihsan]

"When the wife of Imran said:

'O my Lord! I have vowed to You what is in my womb [my child] to be dedicated to Your services, so accept this [my vow] from me. Verily, All-Hearer, the All-Knowing.' Then we she delivered her she said:

'O my Lord! I have delivered a female child' - and Allah knew better what she delivered - 'And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Maryam and I seek refuge with You for her and for her offspring from Satan, the outcast.' " (Quran 3:35-36)

Quran verses 3:37 continue ..

"So her Lord accepted her with good acceptance. He made her grow in a good manner and put her under the care of Zachariya. Every time he entered Al-Mihrab (the praying place) to visit her, he found her supplied with sustenance [food]. He said:

'O Maryam! From where have you got this?' She said:
'This is from Allah. Verily, Allah provides sustenance who He wills, without limit.' "

3:42:

"And (remember) when the angels said: 'O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah (God) has chosen you, purified you (from polytheism and disbelief), and chosen you above the women of the world (of her lifetime).' "



Surah Maryam:

10 (Zakariya (Zachariah)) said: "My Lord! Appoint for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is that you shall not speak unto mankind for three nights, though having no bodily defect."
11 Then he came out to his people from Al-Mihrab (a praying place or a private room, etc.), he told them by signs to glorify Allahs Praises in the morning and in the afternoon.

19 (The angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son."
20 She said: "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?"
21 He said: "So (it will be), your Lord said: That is easy for Me (Allah): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allah), and it is a matter (already) decreed, (by Allah). "

[captainneckbeard]

"When the wife of Imran said:

'O my Lord! I have vowed to You what is in my womb [my child] to be dedicated to Your services, so accept this [my vow] from me. Verily, All-Hearer, the All-Knowing.' Then we she delivered her she said:

'O my Lord! I have delivered a female child' - and Allah knew better what she delivered - 'And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Maryam and I seek refuge with You for her and for her offspring from Satan, the outcast.' " (Quran 3:35-36)

Quran verses 3:37 continue ..

"So her Lord accepted her with good acceptance. He made her grow in a good manner and put her under the care of Zachariya. Every time he entered Al-Mihrab (the praying place) to visit her, he found her supplied with sustenance [food]. He said:

'O Maryam! From where have you got this?' She said:
'This is from Allah. Verily, Allah provides sustenance who He wills, without limit.' "

3:42:

"And (remember) when the angels said: 'O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah (God) has chosen you, purified you (from polytheism and disbelief), and chosen you above the women of the world (of her lifetime).' "



Surah Maryam:

10 (Zakariya (Zachariah)) said: "My Lord! Appoint for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is that you shall not speak unto mankind for three nights, though having no bodily defect."
11 Then he came out to his people from Al-Mihrab (a praying place or a private room, etc.), he told them by signs to glorify Allahs Praises in the morning and in the afternoon.

19 (The angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son."
20 She said: "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?"
21 He said: "So (it will be), your Lord said: That is easy for Me (Allah): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allah), and it is a matter (already) decreed, (by Allah). "

did this thread die? It has been one of my favorite threads to discover! how sad!

[Neh22]

Salaam alaykum.

That is very interesting. I can't comment on whether or not Isa and Jesus were different people with certainty, as I'm not familiar with all the information about the Jesus according to Western/Christian accounts. I am more familiar with Jesus according to the Qur'an. I believe that conjecture is the source of any information that doesn't follow with the Qur'an. I read something that explained where the name "Jesus Christ" came from. Christ, I read, was the Greek pronunciation of the Hebrew word that meant "messiah". So Jesus is not his correct name. Esau or Issa would be correct (pronounced similarly). Christ is not his name either.Jesus was the Greek/European pronunciation of the Hebrew name Esau. Issa is the Arabic pronunciation of the name. As most of us know, Hebrew and Arabic are similar in many ways, although pronunciation may differ of some words and names. For example, in Arabic, we say "salaam alaykum". In Hebrew, we say "shalom alokum". Both the fathers of Arabs and Jews were half-brothers - the sons of Prophet Abraham, who spoke Aramaic. So both language may have roots in Aramaic, an ancient language. Anthropologists assert that either Aramaic or Ge'ez was the first language. Ge'ez and Aramaic are similar - Ge'ez was the ancient language of Eritrea/Ethiopia, a place that anthropologists and other scientists argue is the first homeland of the first peoples. There is also a thread on this site that is called "Race and culture" and talks about the oldest Arab people, who often have dark skin and wooly hair, like Moses and Jesus did, and like Eritrean and Ethiopian people have. So if you think about it, we are all related, including the Prophets. I don't think the Qur'an lists dates or gives clues for the times when Jesus lived but it may be possible that it was close to Moses' time. But then again, Moses spoke Hebrew, didn't he? And if I'm not mistaken (although it does not exactly state in the Qur'an), that Jesus spoke mainly Aramaic, as his GoIspel was originally in Aramaic, because Hebrew was a dying language at that time (it obviously made a come-back). Also, Moses lived at a time when Jews just started living outside of Egypt. By Jesus' time, there were many of them outside of Egypt. In order for their numbers to grow so much, there must have been some time that had passed, don't you think?

Forgive me if there was more information here than was needed to be. I sometimes ramble on, especially about things that interest me, like Islam or history or anthropology. 

[David_K]

Peace Pazuzu.

Have you found any new information about the topic? Perhaps you will keep us updated.