Jesus VS Isa

[Pazuzu]

I think Ayman and Layth might be interested in this topic.

For the past year, I have been reading the books of Dr. Kamal Salibi, and digesting every word in them. Salibi (b.1928) just to let you know, is considered to be the most important historian of the Middle East, and wa previously a teacher in London as well as the American University in Beirut, Lebanon.

In 1985, he published a book called: "The Bible Came from Arabia", where he presented some irrefutable proofs that the Israelites originated  in South Western Arabia, and that the original kingdom of David and Solomon was located somewhere near the present day Asir mountains, in the South Western corner of Hijaz, Saudi Arabia, not too far from Yemen.  This revolutionary theory (which caused him to be labeled  a madman at the time) is now begining to resonate in Europe, and some anti-zionist Rabbis have actually embraced it.

I don't want to bore you with details. You will have to read the books of Salibi to find out more. For those of you who are interested in Biblical history and archeology, Salibi's books are a MUST READ. They have opened my eyes to many truths, and confirmed some suspicions I had for many years (I always suspected that Isa, son of Maryam , was from from a far older time that the historic Jesus).  What struck me about his theories is that Salibi, despite being a devout Christian, did not shy from using Quranic verses to prove his point, and supported them with archeological and geographical evidence.

Anyway, to make it brief, Salibi, who is also a proffessional in old Hebrew linguistics, made the following observations to validate his theory:

1- The geography of Palestine does NOT fit at all with the stories of the Old Testament.
2- The names of 99% of the towns and villages in the old Testament (before its text was corrupted by the clergy of later ages, who manipulated the accentuation of its letters) are exact matches with names of towns that can still be seen today in the Asir region in SW of Saudi Arabia.
3- The towns of Lot, Aad, Median, were destroyed by volcanic activity, and if the Arabs had any sense of curiosity or discovery like the West, they could probably find their ruins scattered all over the Hijaz area, which has many volcanoes around it.
4- There is absolutely no historical or archeological evidence in Palestine that indicates that the kingdom of Solomon was ever in Plaestine to begin with. The idea of the "Promised Land" for the Jews is a fallacy. (he then explains the difference between Jews and Israelites). The Jews  have been digging and excavating the region in and around Jerusalem for over 150 years and have failed to uncover the slightest shred of evidence to support their claims concerning the Kingdom of David.  Jewish proffessor Zaif Hertzog, who teaches Biblical archeology in the university of Tel-Aviv has also backed Salibi's theory, as have many other scholars of the West.

5- Salibi points out also the absence of any Hieroglyphic or archeological evidence proving that the Israelites were ever in Egypt to begin with. The word "misr" in the Quran does NOT mean Egypt. It is not even a proper noun. The word means: "a walled fortified farming town", and pharaoh is simply the title of its ruler. Interstingly, Egypt came to be called "Misr" by the Arabs, for the first time, in much later ages. During the time of Moses, the Egyptians called their land: "Kimi", while the Greek historians called it "ha-ka-ptah" (meaning land of Ptah).  He points out that Egypt (Nile country) never had any fortified towns at all. All its towns were open and built on the banks of the nile.

Interestingly, there is a town in Asir, Saudi Arabia, called "Masrama", (مصرمة), and it has existed under the same name for over 3000 years! The name appears in the OT, and archeologists have confirmed its existence.

6- This is where it gets interesting:  The Quran calls Maryam (mother of Isa) the Sister of Aaron

{Then she came to her people carrying him. They said: "O Maryam, you have come with a thing totally unexpected!" * O Sister of Aaron, your father was not a wicked man, and your mother has never been unchaste!}...19:27,28    (This is the FM transaltion, which is not very accurate, but that's not the point).

This Aaron who is mentioned here...is he not the brother of Moses???

Christian scholars used the above verses to claim that the Quran is historically inaccurate because it confused Maryam daughter of Amran (sister of Aaron)  with Mary, mother of Jesus.

The Muslim "scholars" in their hypocricy, and in order to "defend" the Quran (and at the same time, support unknowingly the Christian doctrine), claimed the following:  "It doesn't literally mean SISTER, but rather that Maryam was akin to Aaron in her righteousness"  Bla.Bla.Bla

Funny!!! How come when the Quran tells us that Aaron was the BROTHER of Moses, they don't give the same explanation?

I agree that the word BROTHER or SISTER doesn't have to be in the literal sense, but when God calls Matyam the SISTER of Aaron, it means Maryam, Aron and Moses were contemporaries.

In the old testament, when The Israelites, led by Moses, safely crossed a body of water, and watched pharaoh (tyrant ruler of a walled town) drown (NOT THE PHARAOH OF EGYPT), we can read the following passage in
( Exodus 15: 19,20):  "And the horses and chariots of Pharaoh entered the sea, and the Lord sealed them in its waters, while the Israelites walked on dry land in the middle. And Maryam, sister of Aaron, took a "daff" (drum-like musical instrument) in her hand, and all the women came out behind her, playing and dancing".

Could this be the mother of Isa???  Could the "Isa" mentioned in the Quran actually be the nephew of Moses? If this is true, then it means that Isa came not 600 years before MUhamad, but the gap is much much longer!!

I started making a thread in this section, but never had the chance to finish it. It proved that "Isa" and "Jesus" are not the same name. They are two distinct Hebrew names.

When the Jews during Muhamad's time boasted of having crucified Isa, son of Mary, the Quran tells us that "SHUBBIHA LAHUM". What does this mean? Could it be that they confused Isa, the real nabi who lived in SW Arabia somewhere, and was born under a date tree, with the political rebel called JESUS who came to Plaestine centuries later seeking to overthrow Herod?

It is all slowly starting to fit together now... the historicity of Biblical Israel, Salibi's theory that has been supported by many Jewish scholars, the lack of any archeological evidence linking David and Solomon to Plaestine, or linking Moses to Egypt (Nile country), and the mysterious travel of Paul to Arabia....


What do you think? Please give feedback. I will elaborate more on the points when I can.

[IronSky]

Peace to all,


Great post pazuzu,  I always enjoy reading your well thought out and researched opinions,  very interesting concepts. Keep up the good work bro.

Kurt

[hope4]

Selam

Very interesting. Is there any evidence that the Jews were ever in Egypt? e.g. were there any writings? Egyptians took good records I am sure they would have documented such events.

Peace

[Pazuzu]

Great post pazuzu,  I always enjoy reading your well thought out and researched opinions,  very interesting concepts. Keep up the good work bro.

Thanx.  I hope I can find the time.

Very interesting. Is there any evidence that the Jews were ever in Egypt? e.g. were there any writings?
Egyptians took good records I am sure they would have documented such events.

Absolutely NONE. We know every little detail about the life of Egytians (Nile country), their kings, priests, how they lived, ate, traded, etc... from hierogliphs and artifacts uncovered from under the sands. There is ZERO mention of Isrealites who escaped , or of "Pharaoh who drowned". Evrything that has been said about Mernephta and the possibility that he may be the Pharaoh mentioned is nothing but conjecture.

The word "MISR" in the Quran does NOT mean Egypt, nor is it a proper noun in any way, shape or form.

What is even more baffling is that the OT, despite recounting details of the life of the Isrealites in "Masrama", does not say anything about pyramids. You think they might have overlooked those collossal structures? (the OT mentions much more trivial things).

Proffessor Hertzog described the situation (of trying to link the Israelites to Palestine or Egypt) as one of total despair, and called for a complete re-evalutaion of Israelite history.

The evidence is begining to point to SW Arabia, near Yemen.

[Rev.John]

All of this is extremely interesting. Keep it coming please

[hope4]

Selam

I would love to see a massive budget reserved for serious archaeological search in and around Arabia. I think many things will be revealled.

Peace

[Cushan]

Eh, I disagree. Why is it that this Jesus and Elizabeth and Yahya are never mentioned until the first century CE when Messianic fervor in Judea was relevant? There's no crucified figure in history before the Christian Christ, and after his generally agreed upon lifetime both Jewish and Christian sources buzz with views relating to him.

Remember that only five hundred years passed between Jesus and Mohammed. Hard to believe there was that much misapprehension in that period. The whole revisionist theory is just too out there.

Maududi in his tafsir gives the best explanation on the dual Maryam controversy, in my opinion.

I also disagree with Salibi on the revisionism of the Bible. Again, the only reason to even look for such a conclusion would be to legitimize Muslim claims to Biblical history after the foundation of Islam. Kind of like sub-saharan Africans claiming to be Hebrews, or white Christians claiming the Bible took place in Europe. Or Mormons claiming to be Israelites.

[san]

Peace, Pazuzu! 

I noticed the "sister of Harun" but never put it into the equation in time/history...!   

Now if we think the Sura 3 is titled "The Family of `Imraan" -- Musa, Harun, Maryam? Interestingly, there is no occurence of "Harun" in Sura 3, but here's a quick found of their occurences in Sura 3 and 19, and Sura 20 which confirms that Harun is from Musa's family:

Sura 'Ali `Imraan:
   3:35, 36        The "wife of `Imraan" gave birth to a female child and named her "Maryam"
   3:37             "Maryam" was under the care of Zakariyya
   3:42, 43, 44   "Maryam"
   3:45             "`Iysa" son of "Maryam"
   3:84             "Musa" "`Iysa" (mentioned after "Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants")

Sura Maryam
   19:16             And mention in the Book, "Maryam", when she withdrew from her family to a place toward the east.
   19:27             "Maryam"
   19:28             "Harun" ("O, sister of Harun")
   19:34             "Iysa" son of "Maryam"
   19:51             "Musa"

20:19-30
   20:19             said, "Throw it down, O Musa."
   20:20-28         ...
   20:29             And appoint for me a minister/helper from my family -
   20:30             "Harun, my brother"


فأتت به قومها تحمله قالوا يا مريم لقد جئت شيئا فريّا

19:27 Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented.

يا أخت هارون ما كان أبوك امرأ سوء وما كانت أمك بغيّا

19:28 O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."

فأشارت إليه قالوا كيف نكلم من كان في المهد صبيّا

19:29 So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?"

قال إني عبد الله آتاني الكتاب وجعلني نبيّا

19:30 said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet (Nabiyya).

وجعلني مباركا أين ما كنت وأوصاني بالصلاة والزكاة ما دمت حيّا

19:31 And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me AlSalaAt and AlzakaAt as long as I remain alive

وبرّا بوالدتي ولم يجعلني جبارا شقيّا

19:32 And dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me a wretched tyrant.

والسلام علي يوم ولدت ويوم أموت ويوم أبعث حيّا

19:33 And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive."

ذلك عيسى ابن مريم قول الحق الذي فيه يمترون

19:34 That is `Iysa, son of Mary - the word of truth about which they are in dispute.
19:34 That is Jesus, son of Mary - the word of truth about which they are in dispute.




... must remember to refer to the Prophet as "`Iysa son of Maryam" instead of "Jesus son of Mary" now


Peace

[Rev.John]

There's no crucified figure in history before the Christian Christ,

You are joking of course? There were thousands of people crucified, it was a common form of execution in the Roman Empire in those days

[Pazuzu]

I noticed the "sister of Harun" but never put it into the equation in time/history...! 

I still insist that the word "sister" doesn't necessarily mean so in the literal sense. However, it certainly means that Harun and Maryam were contemporaries. That at least, hold true. The Quran would NOT call her SISTER of Harun if she came 1000 years later. Had that been the case, It would simply have been enough to call her "Daughter of Amran"  (Daughter / Son means decendents - not necessarily direct children, if you catch my drift).

I don't blame you for not noticing. But if a person who reads the Quran extensivley such as you do (I presume) missed it, what can we say about the 90% of Muslims living today, who go about reciting the Quran like zombies?

... must remember to refer to the Prophet as "`Iysa son of Maryam" instead of "Jesus son of Mary" now

This is exactly what I am trying to prove, with God's help.  Jesus (Yeshu) is NOT (or rather, WAS not) Esau (Isa)

These are two distinctinct Hebrew names. Does anyone here speak Hebrew?? Please confirm this. The brainwashed Muslims have been led to believe that Yeshu is the Hebrew transliteration of Isa. Well it is NOT

Both are Hebrew names. The implications of this fact are quite devastating.

Remember that only five hundred years passed between Jesus and Mohammed.

Yes. Between JESUS (the son of a carpenter and political rebel who stormed into Jerusalem some 2000 years ago) and Muhamad.  But ISA the son of Maryam came centuries before JESUS.

Maududi in his tafsir gives the best explanation on the dual Maryam controversy, in my opinion.

I regret to say that I am not familiar with Maududi's explanation. Can you please post it for us, so that we can study it under the light of reason?

I also disagree with Salibi on the revisionism of the Bible. Again, the only reason to even look for such a conclusion would be to legitimize Muslim claims to Biblical history after the foundation of Islam.

Why would Salibi, a devout Christian, want to legitemize Muslim claims? What can he hope to gain from that? The man is a linguist and historian, and his discovery will soon shake the very foundation of all 3 rampant faiths.

I would love to see a massive budget reserved for serious archaeological search in and around Arabia. I think many things will be revealled.

Dream on!!

The Wahabis who rule Saudi Arabia are not interested in science. All they care about is how to fill their bellies with food, and spin 7 times around their cubic idol. Right under them are the ruins of the past nations that God spoke of in the Quran. Everything is right there, under their very noses, but they are too lazy to move their a$$es and investigate. All they do is boast about the "scientific miracles" of the Quran?? Who discovered all that?? Certainy not them!

I will quote proffessor Hertzog next.

Peace...