Author Topic: Quran and Women & Patriarchy  (Read 5446 times)

ay

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Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« on: October 13, 2017, 04:44:28 AM »
Is the Quran a patriarchal text? Why are women spoken of often in terms of their sexuality in the Quran? (eg. Mariam is described as good for being "chaste"; dress code for women (and slave women?); the issue of "whom your right hand possesses", genderless Allah always being referred to as He etc etc)

Please share your thoughts, it's something I am really struggling with, unpicking the patriarchal interpretations from what the actual text is saying.

Thank you
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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2017, 05:12:46 AM »
Peace ay.
The problem that people encounter with Qoran,to my knowledge up to date,has been its different interpretations by others.
 I found that my approach and bias towards it has been the problem in the past.
I have gone full circle with this. Now I approach it with a "clean mind",as though it is something I have just came across,completely with a new mind asking simply:What does this book-All of it- say?Why? The reasons behind its instructions/commands?....etc.

I have also found that I cannot rush its meanings. I need to read/study all the verses about a topic ,then see if I can come up with a consistent,non contradictory meaning?
Yes,as you can see it takes years,I am only scratching the surface of what this book is saying!!!

In short,by all means see what people have to say to you about your question/s,but take nothing for granted or as a fact. Go through it yourself and do the work that may lead you to your "true" and "honest,without a doubt "answers.
Or ,like many, hurry things up, stay with your actual thoughts or even worse give up and cast it aside and do not waste your time with this confusing book? .
In my experience,the majority are in "doubt" about it .
My answer to you is Qoran is not a patriarchal text. Many of its interpretations are,especially the traditional one.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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reel

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2017, 04:40:35 AM »
Quote
Is the Quran a patriarchal text?

I think reading the Book can better explain that  ;)

Many sites exist to make that possible.

Quote
Why are women spoken of often in terms of their sexuality in the Quran?

Maybe because some men seem to ignore any command given to them about their own sexuality.

Say to the believing men they should lower their gaze and they should guard their chastity. That (is) purer for them. Indeed, Allah (is) All-Aware of what they do.24:30

But I guess if you just look at all the verses about women you will be able to get a proper answer to your questions. Start from here: http://islamawakened.com
Type "women" within their search bar to get to occurances of that word.

Quote
(eg. Mariam is described as good for being "chaste";

Because people thought she was the opposite? You will still find writings today in which she is called a whore. Quran works as a corrector of erroneous beliefs of the past.

We also have Joseph in Quran who went through something similar and did have to pay a heavy price for it:

She said, "That is the one, you blamed me about him. And certainly I sought to seduce him, but he saved himself, and if not he does what I order him, surely, he will be imprisoned and certainly will be of those who are. He said, "My Lord, the prison is dearer to me than what they invite me to it. And unless You turn away from me their plot I might incline towards them and I be of the ignorant."12:32-33

Quote
dress code for women

Societies from different ages seem to be obsessed with women's clothes and eye candy ingredients. Perhaps that's why?

Quote
(and slave women?)

A verse?


Quote
whom your right hand possesses

Only females?????

Quote
genderless Allah always being referred to as He etc etc

Because "it" sounds weird???

That said, languages that provide no gender based words, don't have any "he" for him.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

Jafar

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2017, 05:56:36 AM »
Now I approach it with a "clean mind",as though it is something I have just came across,completely with a new mind asking simply:What does this book-All of it- say?Why? The reasons behind its instructions/commands?....etc.

Good approach..  probe all the 'reasons', 'background' and 'motives' on why the writer(s) of the Quran said those things..
Including the possibility that there could be 'many' writers contributing to the Quran, each has their own background, reasons and motives..

And make sure that you put out the fear..
The fear that "God will be angry and torture you for all eternity"..

Because that's the actual objective on why the materials was claimed to be authored/written by God....
As human brain capability of logic and rational thinking fell short when fear kicked in...

Is the Quran a patriarchal text? Why are women spoken of often in terms of their sexuality in the Quran? (eg. Mariam is described as good for being "chaste"; dress code for women (and slave women?); the issue of "whom your right hand possesses", genderless Allah always being referred to as He etc etc)


Clearly the book was written within a Patriarchal cultural society... (human society where the male took dominant and ruling position) A clear cut pattern shared with other books claimed to be written by God... starting from Hammurabi Codex (Mesopotamia/Iraq), Book Of The Dead (Egypt), Torah (Canaan), Gospel/Bible (Canaan and Anatolia) all of which are Patriarchal society. On all of the above materials, 'bitches' are condemned with harsh punishment, while the male could easily walk free for any 'sexual offence'... Example on Hammurabi Codex; Bad husband: wife can file for a divorce. Bad wife: death by drowning..

Clear cut comparison is a problem as there isn't many 'written' law of Matriarchal society, Patriarchal culture dominate today's society, with only very few Matriarchal society survive today. And those who survived, most of their law was not written in a 'book' yet transmitted orally through generations...

Herewith the list of Matriarchal society today:
http://mentalfloss.com/article/31274/6-modern-societies-where-women-literally-rule

huruf

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2017, 06:17:24 AM »
Is the Quran a patriarchal text? Why are women spoken of often in terms of their sexuality in the Quran? (eg. Mariam is described as good for being "chaste"; dress code for women (and slave women?); the issue of "whom your right hand possesses", genderless Allah always being referred to as He etc etc)

Please share your thoughts, it's something I am really struggling with, unpicking the patriarchal interpretations from what the actual text is saying.

Thank you


Do you read the rabic or do you read a translation?

There is a big problem either way but compounded if what you read is a translation. You have no way by yourseelf of ascertaining whther what it says is what the original says or something else.

If you read Arabic, the problem is different. The whole of Qur'an sometimes more, sometime less has been hidden below a new version that is not printed but inprinted inthe collective mind which says "what the Qur'an means" by this or that. Everything hs been interpreted. Many things have been interpreted in such a way that you cannot conceive that the original may say something different. And somethings are added to the meaning, or subtracted.

All those are games that are played with the Qur'an and which drive many people, particularly women,away from it in horror.

Obviously they had to be hidden. If it was read as it says, the world would be upside down. Women would have to be honoured and. Men would have to be honourable, and it would be the end of the world (I am being sarcastic) .

I will not go into detail, it would be endless and people, even here, in this Qur'an alone, is not prepared. Things are too ingrained and the Qur'an is too straight, too independent and unconsiderate of petty ideas.

Most people would die rather than accept what the Qur'an says. We have too many mmotional and intellectual pets which we are not going to abandon to accept a book that finally we consider also a pet.

Sorry to be so caustic. But, caustic or not, I amafraid you will have to disregard what people say if you want to know what God says.

Salaam

progressive1993

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2017, 06:39:40 AM »
Men and women are equal before God, but they are not the same and have different roles. Perhaps the problem is your feminist worldview and not the word of God? Also, seems like you are doubting the authenticity?

Is the Quran a patriarchal text? Why are women spoken of often in terms of their sexuality in the Quran? (eg. Mariam is described as good for being "chaste"; dress code for women (and slave women?);

So it's better to be a slut and not be a modest woman? Wearing a bikini and a tight short skirt is better?
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

good logic

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2017, 06:41:07 AM »
Peace jafar.
Have you or are you in the process of doing this to Qoran?:
Now I approach it with a "clean mind",as though it is something I have just came across,completely with a new mind asking simply:What does this book-All of it- say?Why? The reasons behind its instructions/commands?....etc.
My guess is you may not have?
Because I wonder if ,when you do,you would still say this,quote:
Good approach..  probe all the 'reasons', 'background' and 'motives' on why the writer(s) of the Quran said those things..
Including the possibility that there could be 'many' writers contributing to the Quran, each has their own background, reasons and motives..

And make sure that you put out the fear..
The fear that "God will be angry and torture you for all eternity"..

Because that's the actual objective on why the materials was claimed to be authored/written by God....
As human brain capability of logic and rational thinking fell short when fear kicked in...

I am saying this,because I already know for sure that it is authored by the Lord of the universe. Human brain and logic falls far short on what that book is saying!!!
Of course the study of its content is an ongoing process.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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HP_TECH

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2017, 07:04:07 AM »
Read uq's paper


RHETORICAL GENDER;

ITS RELATION TO 2 ND AND 3 RD PERSON

PROPOSITIONS IN THE QURAN   

U. QIRBEE 

Authored: 04/12/2016
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My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

hawk99

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2017, 12:53:59 PM »
Is the Quran a patriarchal text? Why are women spoken of often in terms of their sexuality in the Quran? (eg. Mariam is described as good for being "chaste"; dress code for women (and slave women?); the issue of "whom your right hand possesses", genderless Allah always being referred to as He etc etc)

Please share your thoughts, it's something I am really struggling with, unpicking the patriarchal interpretations from what the actual text is saying.

Thank you

 :) Quite the contrary ay, the Quran was revealed to undo male patriarchy!



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The Sardar

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2017, 08:21:48 PM »
Read uq's paper


RHETORICAL GENDER;

ITS RELATION TO 2 ND AND 3 RD PERSON

PROPOSITIONS IN THE QURAN   

U. QIRBEE 

Authored: 04/12/2016
Do you have the link?

huruf

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2017, 12:10:09 AM »
I guessyou only have to go to UQ profile, "show posts" and look for the date.

The post was quite good and I unloaded the article.

Of course it is  must that those who re the Qur'an are well aware of its language and the article illustrates some errors some people commit with grammar.

Salaam

Cerberus

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2017, 03:55:21 AM »
So it's better to be a slut and not be a modest woman? Wearing a bikini and a tight short skirt is better?

Women who dress in a revealing and/or extravagant fashion are simply people to whom looking good brings good feeling about their own self. They are more inclined to their outer self and in doing so they are ignorant of their true self. They should be viewed with sympathy.


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All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

burhan

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2017, 10:56:59 AM »
Is the Quran a patriarchal text? Why are women spoken of often in terms of their sexuality in the Quran? (eg. Mariam is described as good for being "chaste"; dress code for women (and slave women?); the issue of "whom your right hand possesses", genderless Allah always being referred to as He etc etc)

Please share your thoughts, it's something I am really struggling with, unpicking the patriarchal interpretations from what the actual text is saying.

Thank you

Yes it is patriarchal. Women are never spoken to directly, it's always in the 2nd/3rd person. Even when it comes to their menses, it's the men who are instructed to keep away.
The Quran doesn't empower the women in they way you are thinking. You will not find a verse like "O' women tell your men to refrain from touching you when you are menstruating. That is better for them".  That would be an empowering verse. They are instructed to do things but they are not given direct control. The control is with men.

Also, curiously, other than Mary no female character is mentioned by her name. It's always wife/woman of Lot/Pharoh/Adam etc.
I really found it odd that the Bible has many female characters named and the Quran has none (other than Mary). 
Seems deliberate rather than accidental ... I have not yet figured out why. 




Peace.

huruf

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2017, 12:14:51 PM »
Yes it is patriarchal. Women are never spoken to directly, it's always in the 2nd/3rd person. Even when it comes to their menses, it's the men who are instructed to keep away.
The Quran doesn't empower the women in they way you are thinking. You will not find a verse like "O' women tell your men to refrain from touching you when you are menstruating. That is better for them".  That would be an empowering verse. They are instructed to do things but they are not given direct control. The control is with men.

Also, curiously, other than Mary no female character is mentioned by her name. It's always wife/woman of Lot/Pharoh/Adam etc.
I really found it odd that the Bible has many female characters named and the Quran has none (other than Mary). 
Seems deliberate rather than accidental ... I have not yet figured out why.

No that would not be an empowering aya. It is God speaking and He is ordering something, not to women but to men. He is telling them what to do or rather what no to do, that is, pester their wives.

Why should He tell the women to tell the men "do not pester me? They do not need God to tell them that, they can say it by themselves just like that, no instructions needed. But what if men or some men they just don't care and still pester them. He does not get any far telling the women than men should not pester them. Is He not God? so go God and tell you them, may be they will listen to You.

And youhave Got it wrong, God does not address the men, He tells the prophet to tell them this or that, God does not address them. He does with the same as with women. He tels the Prophet to tell them.

As to that women are never spoken to directly? Just as about as much as men, because there are most ayas which are addressed to the believers or to the people without distinction of women or men. As to telling men what they should do to women, it is always duties, so if He es imposing duties on them, He better tell them. He is the authority. And he is not addressing men.

---
AndGod is not addressing women in terms of their sexuality any more than men. Maryam is not addressed in terms of her sexuality and It is not saying she is chaste, although that is taken for granted since she is good and good men and good women are chaste, and the Qur'an at no time expects more chastity from women than from men. If you "ay" say so, quote please.

Keep chastity is expressed as HfaDH farj(pronoun) not as ahsana. The term employed is Maryam is no HafDH but ahsanat.

Salaam

Makaveli

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2017, 05:47:33 PM »
Is the Quran a patriarchal text? Why are women spoken of often in terms of their sexuality in the Quran? (eg. Mariam is described as good for being "chaste"; dress code for women (and slave women?); the issue of "whom your right hand possesses", genderless Allah always being referred to as He etc etc)

Please share your thoughts, it's something I am really struggling with, unpicking the patriarchal interpretations from what the actual text is saying.

Thank you

They fail to define Allah or Qur'an as a whole. One thing is iblees, sectarians claim it is a devil like dude who is refered as al-kafiirun (2:34), when he is clearly not one of them, at all. There are gazzilion of inconsistencies in the Qur'an and everyone is trying to impose his/her opinion on the subject and use their primitive apologetics, like in this thread, whereas the text itself is highly nonsensical. Such as there are 4 possible spouses mentioned in 4:3, but what (if at all?) does it have to do with the orphans? All wives are orphans? And why the same text repeats itself in 35:1 when talking about the angels?

Traditional interpretation of Qur'an is patriarchal one way or the other. It talks about executing authority and maintenance of hierarchal servility, which is always a patriarchal notion. And it 'promises' certain 'companions' for devoted ones, which are hinted to be females. It also constantly mocks those that it defines as al-kafiirun, and promotes the established of a fascistic regime (which is always patriarchal), where blind slaves like Gerrans will persecute and mock those they define as al-kafiirun. Any attempt at reasoning with these people, however, leads to them parroting certain dogmas like "if God wills he will guide you" while they blatantly fail to back their claims by the text itself. Funny thing they actually claim to be "open-minded", "thinking for themselves" and "non-sectarian".

One who uses (mostly female folk here) the he/she argument (i.e. no gender specified) without properly [re]understanding the Qur'an altogether (i.e. using traditional interpretations) is basically a blind liar, he has no basis to use he/she in verses when they are clearly attributed to men.  :ignore:

However, it is not that simple with the Qur'an. You have to look deeper, unless you want to remain in the dogma.
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Makaveli

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2017, 07:28:02 PM »
Only females?????

Explain me, also if you can you may combine your response with your reasoning of a defensive war, just saying, how can a woman take a man-slave without having another man (her master/provider/chief/lord/husband/caliph/sultan/you name it) give her a slave? How is it biologically possible for women to take other men as "their right hand possess"? Unless we talk about lovers outside of marriage and not war bounty, then please also explain the inconsistency of no sex before marriage.

Joking. Don't bother. I know you are not good at sectarian apologetics.
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Noon waalqalami

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2017, 03:07:15 AM »
Is the Quran a patriarchal text?

Peace, in Arabic there are nuances depending on context e.g. him/his i.e. said person; see inheritance example.

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Comrox

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2017, 10:44:12 PM »
So it's better to be a slut and not be a modest woman? Wearing a bikini and a tight short skirt is better?

That's a huge stretch.
10:109 Follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until God judges.

57:3 He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Innermost. And He is fully aware of all things.

SleepySoul

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2019, 06:51:20 AM »
Quote
Women who dress in a revealing and/or extravagant fashion are simply people to whom looking good brings good feeling about their own self. They are more inclined to their outer self and in doing so they are ignorant of their true self. They should be viewed with sympathy.

What about such men?

Cerberus

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Re: Quran and Women & Patriarchy
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2019, 11:49:59 AM »
No difference. A person will reach for whatever they can grab onto in order to feel alive, and they'll spend their life pursuing that feeling of liveliness (of existing, of being heard, seen and/or loved, and of having a purpose). But in my opinion it's just an illusion of existing.