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HELL FIRE Punishment

Started by jkhan, February 04, 2023, 08:23:52 PM

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jkhan

Peace Everyone...

Lot I was hearing while I was working with multicultural people.  What they regularly say is why your Allah is punishing people in hell fire?  What benefit for Allah?  We know major crimes on earth deserves punishment that's why law and order is constituted and such people are punished either jailed or capital punishment.. And we don't mind about it coz they deserve it.. But Why God punish forever for the same crime unless we believe in Allah..  They further say no compulsion in following God so why punish while it is not compelled to obey God...
Is God egocentric they ask?  We have a lot of things to do in this short life and we are busy with it and no time for God and stuff and in between some are doing crime for this why God has prepared a mammoth punishment from which no escape?  Does this absolutely necessary they ask? 

Can't He forgive and make human being to nothing?  Is He in anger?  He knows these people would deny him but still prepared punishment of forever life... We don't get this they say..  Yes warning is good so people avoid crime but this is beyond warning and it will in fact gonna happen....

They further say.. Yes let's hope after saying judgement many of the people suffer in fire and few in paradise.. So what difference it makes.. So is this what God wanted... I have given my replies as per my knowledge then but I would like to have your thoughts and ui our possible answers to such of your friends...

Now this is my question.. Do disbelievers really deserve hell fire or we don't need to be kind on them? 
Let us die with guidance

[url="https://discord.gg/3NSZH3hxy7"]https://discord.gg/3NSZH3hxy7[/url]
[url="https://www.youtube.com/@purposefullivingg"]https://www.youtube.com/@purposefullivingg[/url]

good logic

Peace jkhan.
My understanding about heaven and hell, reward and punishment and good and bad in general from GOD perspective  in Qoran is an offer of choice.
It is not GOD who chooses for us, we make our own choices- most of us-
Look at all the systems of this world.the majority of them restrict our choices.. All of them operate some sort of reward and sanction

Now to some people GOD is saying  that some will go to hell if they do not do certain things. Or some will go to heaven if they do them. Therefore GOD is cruel to condemn and  punish His own creation.
I find , from the context of my study of Qoran, that GOD is saying to me: " WHAT KIND OF A PERSON DO YOU WANT TO BE?"

GOD is describing to me two opposite state of mind of a person. an allegory of one state will be in heaven and the other one will be in hell.
So what kind of state I want myself to be in?

One state in heaven being content and happy, in harmony with my community and social relationships through my own choices and conduct.
The other state being  confused, unhappy and in conflict with myself  and my community through my own choices and conduct.

Or can someone really complain to the one that gave them life, and set up the system for them  to put themselves  in one of two states through their own choices and decisions?
GOD does not put a single person in heaven or hell. Each person puts his own self in one state or the other by his own choice.
Besides that, nobody knows exactly how heaven or hell in another life will be like or how long the experience will last. All the descriptions in Qoran are allegorical.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/[/url]

jkhan

And they say, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days." Say, "Have you taken a covenant with Allah ? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?"
Let us die with guidance

[url="https://discord.gg/3NSZH3hxy7"]https://discord.gg/3NSZH3hxy7[/url]
[url="https://www.youtube.com/@purposefullivingg"]https://www.youtube.com/@purposefullivingg[/url]

jkhan

Quote from: jkhan on February 04, 2023, 08:23:52 PM
Peace Everyone...

Lot I was hearing while I was working with multicultural people.  What they regularly say is why your Allah is punishing people in hell fire?  What benefit for Allah?  We know major crimes on earth deserves punishment that's why law and order is constituted and such people are punished either jailed or capital punishment.. And we don't mind about it coz they deserve it.. But Why God punish forever for the same crime unless we believe in Allah..  They further say no compulsion in following God so why punish while it is not compelled to obey God...
Is God egocentric they ask?  We have a lot of things to do in this short life and we are busy with it and no time for God and stuff and in between some are doing crime for this why God has prepared a mammoth punishment from which no escape?  Does this absolutely necessary they ask? 

Can't He forgive and make human being to nothing?  Is He in anger?  He knows these people would deny him but still prepared punishment of forever life... We don't get this they say..  Yes warning is good so people avoid crime but this is beyond warning and it will in fact gonna happen....

They further say.. Yes let's hope after saying judgement many of the people suffer in fire and few in paradise.. So what difference it makes.. So is this what God wanted... I have given my replies as per my knowledge then but I would like to have your thoughts and ui our possible answers to such of your friends...

Now this is my question.. Do disbelievers really deserve hell fire or we don't need to be kind on them?

I hope below verse has an answer to Hell punishment and its justification...

38:27 And We did not create the heaven and the earth and that between them in vain/aimlessly. That is the assumption of those who disbelieve, so woe to those who disbelieve from the Fire.

Did God create well in advance the Earth and heavens without having a plan to place human on it to live?  Yes He did well plan the earth and heavens for human life..  But we are created long after...
If not created IN VAIN then there is PUPOSE of Creation of Earth and Heavens....  God has/had a reason to create us well after Earth and heavens were created... What is the use of Earth and heavens if human not meant to live on it?  Well...  We have done something a serious crime but somehow God has shown mercy to give a chance to live on earth to redeem it but unfortunately we human are blatant, thankless and cruel to end up denying God.. 

Strangely, On top of that the worst part of Hell Fire is allocated to Munafiq (Hypocrites)  ? Why...  Is atheist a Munafiq?  No..  So God is angry the most on those Munafiq and those who associate with God and not with those who murder...  For crime Allah is not angry but with Munafiqs and Mushrik Allah is angry..
For me Mujrim is not criminal but Mujrim is opposite of Muslim...
There is justification for Hell fire that too as long as the earth and heavens  last...  It is not light and even though those wish to get out of it they won't be able to... Reflect perhaps you guys will get a better picture why God is so angry.. I am using word angry.. Yes.. God is angry... Hell fire as punishment  for life span of human being in this Earth must have a serious reason since He didn't create Earth and heavens in VAIN..
Let us die with guidance

[url="https://discord.gg/3NSZH3hxy7"]https://discord.gg/3NSZH3hxy7[/url]
[url="https://www.youtube.com/@purposefullivingg"]https://www.youtube.com/@purposefullivingg[/url]

good logic

Yes. So GOD is saying there are two outcomes for the human from this life.He created the human to choose heaven or hell.
GOD set the criteria and sent the book of instructions, the lessons and warnings.
But it is the human who puts himself in hell or heaven by choosing-how to live- what kind of a person they want to be.

GOD s knowledge of the outcome of each human is just part of who GOD is. He knows the past. present and future. i.e He has the video tape of each life.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/[/url]

jkhan

11:7 And it is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days - and His Throne had been upon water - that He might test you as to which of you is better in deed

51:56 And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.


Now let me elaborate or incorporate  38:27 with above two crucial verses..

Three key words in the verses  are TEST,  DEED and WORSHIP ALLAH

Here comes the answer for 38:27 IN VAIN..  so PURPOSE is clear by above two verses..

We are created not for any junk reason but to worship God alone.. Unless God wouldn't have created us thus He would not have created the Earth and heavens in which we are living free of cost..
Then the second part "which of you better in DEED... "
Other than these two reasons God didn't create us and Earth and heavens...
So those disbelive think life is so important than all these nonsensical God belief..
So God created massive earth and heavens and then placed us on them to worship Him alone while doing better deeds...  But what are we doing.. For us something else has become important ... Somehow for all these God has made a covenant is per verse 7:172 but human is going against his natural instinct and forgotton his purpoae on Earth and many other purposes has become prioritised... 
Amazing thing always stunned me is on the day of judgement those who are destined for hell fire don't deny they were put in Hell fire with in justice but they request for one more chance of life on Earth to reform...  Well..  Would that make any difference?  Absolutely not...
For me Hell fire is justified as punishment coz we have chosen as our brother GL points out our destiny... But HELL is real and not one day two days or months or years... But as long as Earth and heavens endure... In a nutshell FOREVER..

Thank you... 
Let us die with guidance

[url="https://discord.gg/3NSZH3hxy7"]https://discord.gg/3NSZH3hxy7[/url]
[url="https://www.youtube.com/@purposefullivingg"]https://www.youtube.com/@purposefullivingg[/url]

Fusion

Very good thread as this is indeed what others ask Muslims to show that our Allah is somewhat cruel and all that. While they present a softer version for so called christian god that he is only forgiving and every one will be forgiven if they just accept Jesus in their lives.

I have the following option that I deduce from my readings. I will present some verses first and especially what GL says that some of those verses may have allegorical interpretations.

10:4
To Him is your return. This is Allah's promise that will certainly come true. Surely it is He Who brings about the creation of all and He will repeat it so that He may justly reward those who believe and do righteous deeds; and that those who disbelieve may have a draught of boiling water and suffer a painful chastisement for their denying the truth

11:7
And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six days – and [before that] His Throne was upon the water that He may test you, who of you is better in conduct If you were to say (O Muhammad): 'All of you will surely be raised after death', then those who disbelieve will certainly say: 'This is nothing but plain sorcery.

45:22
Allah created the heavens and the earth in Truth that each person may be requited for his deeds. They shall not be wronged.

53:31
To Allah ˹alone˺ belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth so that He may reward the evildoers according to what they did, and reward the good-doers with the finest reward

As per my understanding, the whole concept is Law of Mukafat - retribution - every act of human (good or bad) determines its result

Remember the fact that the very objective of the creation of human beings would be fulfilled if they develop their potential abilities by following the Allahs message and then devote themselves to establishing the universal social order for nurturing all mankind. Allah has created the heavens and earth in 6 stages and he has all control over everything including source of life which is water, he provided us with free will so we may choose to live a balanced life. Those who in this life did not believe in Allah will be raised again after death and they will be shocked to see the truth because they are the one who used to say that WHATEVER WE DO , WE WILL NOT BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE, at the very least we will perhaps spend a short time in hell till maybe our intercessors-false gods secure forgiveness from the almighty. That is when Allah ask them did you obtain such a promise from HIM? because Allah never goes back on his promise.

God did not create all that is there heavens and earth and in between just in vain, while everything is created based in Law of Mukafat.
'Law of 'Mukafat' is universally applicable. Mukafat may not find an exact translated form, however it could be taken as a reaction to an unlikable, unwanted or an untoward act—reckoning, reprisal or retribution. In the divine realm, it encompasses not only individuals, but it hold good for nations composed of individuals, no change is fashioned unless there is willingness to change inner-selves. God helps those, who help themselves—be it on an individual level or on the national level, as enshrined:

''He has a succession; before him and behind him, protecting him by God's command. God does not change the condition of people until they change what is within themselves. And if God wills any hardship for a people, there is no turning back; and apart from Him they have no protector.'' (13:11)

Allah's law of Mukafat encompasses a human being from all sides, what is before him and what is behind him and brings all actions to logical conclusion. The protection in whatever form it comes is by God's command. And since a nation comprises of individuals, of people who live within the confines of the nation, what holds good for an individual holds good for the nation on mass level.

On an individual level or en-masse, God helps those who help themselves. The change obviously takes place in accordance with intentions, desires and actions. The change has to be wrought from within. And, when it is said from within, it translates to spiritual enrichment by noble deeds, instead falling prey to the base material needs. Falling prey to base material needs lead to corrupting influences, polluting the society. It could lead to national ruin.

The 'Law of Mukafat' is so strict that when chastisement comes, none can avert it, nor can people have any protection besides Allah. And, divine protection has to be earned by treading on the straight path, and not on the path, which is deviant.

source:
https://www.greaterkashmir.com/editorial/friday-focus-law-of-mukafat-2








Best Regards,

Fusion

Best Regards,

Fusion

Quote from: good logic on February 05, 2023, 06:13:52 AM
Yes. So GOD is saying there are two outcomes for the human from this life.He created the human to choose heaven or hell.
GOD set the criteria and sent the book of instructions, the lessons and warnings.
But it is the human who puts himself in hell or heaven by choosing-how to live- what kind of a person they want to be.

GOD s knowledge of the outcome of each human is just part of who GOD is. He knows the past. present and future. i.e He has the video tape of each life.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

i would like to add something here.
God created a perfect Test System for us as well. Some of big tests include Lust and Power and Greed. He has set these entities into our core in such a way that not willingly we will be confronted to make a choice and our decisions will determine our outcome. However we will be put to those scenarios by God and not by our own will.
For example, a very handsome man may be tested for his lust and power to control his sexual desires when GOD will make certain conditions true for him in order to test him. Take example of Prophet yousef. The man never asked to be in such a situation but God will TEST him.
Likewise a person may be given a free hand to exploit wealth or orphans under his authority or you name it, there will be many examples in life where these test conditions are destined for xyz people just for them to use their free will and be tested. The point is who is setting these test scenarios, it is God will test us with all those things (hunger, loss of life etc etc). Hence it is the creator who created this world to test us... and then be rewarded for our actions. Thats how I see it. It is what it is.
If suppose a person born blind, deaf and mute is asked to speak, will he not speak why God you created me ? rather not be born? or the girl who will ask why
was she buried alive? These folks were done even before get a chance to be tested? Unless God has prepared a world - hereafter for them to reward. But they have the hardest test of all, being born with such a fate.
We can all quote  verses from Quran in this forum about why he created humans i.e for worship. but we will not be able to comprehend the true meaning of this worship... only God knows, because he will ensure everything will make sense on the judgment day for every question there is..hopefully God willing.



Best Regards,

good logic

But do we take the test seriously? Do some care about being tested by GOD? Or even know they are being tested?
Or care if GOD exist?
How come one is in a test he is not aware of until he/she believes in a message from GOD?

So the initial step is "true belief" in GOD and starting to be GOD conscious.

Then this test will have to go both ways, you also testing if what GOD says is true.. This leads to the road of "certainty" or not.that can go on as long as one lives.
Therefore it is the journey of trials of the test of success and failures that will take place  that is going to shape your character and relationship with GOD.

Again this may end in success or failure.
Only if the devotion to GOD Alone and the sincerity is consistent and sought with perseverance and effort ,then success may follow.
With pain there is gain.
The road to hell is easier.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/[/url]