Can idribuhunna in 4:34 be translated as avoid them?

[zigazigha]

According to Lane's lexicon:

"Daad-Ra-Ba = to heal, strike, propound as an example, put forth a parable, go, make a journey, travel, mix, avoid, take away, put a cover, shut, mention/declare/state, propound, set forth, compare, liken, seek a way, march on, set, impose, prevent, fight, traffic with anyone's property for a share in the profit, he made or caused to be or constituted, leave/forsake, take away thing (with 'an)."

Can idribuhunna in 4:34 be translated as "avoid them"?

[Noon waalqalami]

peace -- yes basically says pay no mind i.e. repeatedly ...

4:34 الرجل the menfolk قوامون steadfast being على upon النسا the womenfolk بما in what فضل bounty الله the god بعضهم some them على over بعض others وبما and in what انفقوا spends they of من from امولهم wealth theirs فالصلحت so the righteous قنتت subordinate (f/p) حفظت guardians (f/p) للغىب to the unseen (i.e. private affairs) بما in what حفظ guard/safeguard الله the god واللاتى and the ones (f/p) تخافون thou fearing نشوزهن recalcitrant theirs (f/p) فعظوهن so admonish ye them (f/p) واهجروهن and leaves ye them (f/p) فى in المضاجع the rest place واضربوهن wa-iḍribuhunna/and shuns ye them (f/p) فان so if اطعنكم hearkens they (f/p) you فلا so not تبغوا seek ye of علىهن over them (f/p) سبىلا path (accountability) of ان indeed الله the god كان be علىا height of كبىرا great of

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane

عنه ↓ اضرب signifies, (S, Msb,) or signifies also, (TA,) and (Msb, TA) so does ضَرَبَ عنه, (Msb, K, TA,) [the latter app. for ضَرَبَ نَفْسَهُ عَنْهُ,] (assumed tropical:) He turned away from, avoided, shunned, or left, him, or it; (S * Msb, K * TA; *) namely, a person, (TA,) or a thing. [/i]

[hawk99]

Peace zigazigha

Yes, avoid.  Not oppress. 

Daad-Ra-Ba = to heal, strike, propound as an example, put forth a parable, go, make a journey, travel, mix,avoid, take away, put a cover, shut, mention/declare/state, propound, set forth, compare, liken, seek a way, march on, set, impose, prevent, fight, traffic with anyone's property for a share in the profit, he made or caused to be or constituted, leave/forsake, take away thing (with'an).
Depressed ground, hard ground in a plain, sandy valley,commissioner as he has to travel much.
Kind manner, lean, thin, similar, alike, the act of striking, a blow, going from place to place, vicissitude of life, affliction especially that which relates to one's person, as disease, death, degradation is common and general suffering.

[imrankhawaja]

what to do with the women or man who wanted to get " ZARAB/DHARAB" ضرب

what is ضرب ?

this word need to handle with care i can put my two cents in it becoz the same word URDU borrowed from ARABIC and the usage of urdu for this word is quite interesting and got MULTIPLE meannings one is totally different than other if applied in sentence .

example of multiple meanings in urdu ضرب are given below...

first (SET) of meanings ضرب  =  Beating, striking, stamping, sealing; coining (money); a beating, blow, stroke (of a whip), wound (of a sword), hurt, injury; loss, damage,stamp, impression (on a coin.)

second (SET) of meanings ضرب = emphasis; (in Arith.) multiplying, multiplication,
[2 x 2 = 4( x is dharab/zarab)].

third (SET) of meanings ضرب = ẓarbuʼl-mas̤al, or ẓarb-ě-mas̤al, (adj) Constituted, or passed into, a proverb; proverbial; current; notorious; a form of saying, a common saying, a proverb.

4TH (SET) of meanings ضرب = (in Arith.), Compound multiplication:?ẓarb-mufrad, s.f. Simplemultiplication:?ḥāṣil-ẓarb, s.m. (in Arith.) The product (in multiplication):?dāruʼẓ-ẓarb, or ẓarb-ḵẖāna,


NOTE all this meanings related with this words are in urdu and there are few more SETS and USUAGE of this word what make sentence totally opposite and correct at same time...although this word drived from arabic hence the usage in urdu are also borrowed usage of arabic as per my thinking...

thats why when people try to justify "BEATING" of women by that verse using the same word sentence did not show any error likewise if we try to put any meanings of that specific word it get adjust perfectly.. hence people have different views on it...

TODAY i will interpret in with meanings of multiplication lol

4:34 The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright females are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, (and mulitply it / repeatedly do it). If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great.

not beat them but advise them and seperate from bedchamber again and again and again untill u or she give-up .. then walk towards courts lmao...

hey guys look thatss what exactly happened with us when we try to sort relationship matters.. untill we giveup...

BEATING is not a solution never...

[zigazigha]

Salam imrankhawaja.
Your translation is interesting but I have a doubt. Doesn't the original text use the feminine plural pronoun "them"? So  shouldnt it be "multiply them/repeat them"? And if so, how does it make sense?

I don't know Arabic so forgive me if it's a dumb question.

[imrankhawaja]

Salam imrankhawaja.
Your translation is interesting but I have a doubt. Doesn't the original text use the feminine plural pronoun "them"? So  shouldnt it be "multiply them/repeat them"? And if so, how does it make sense?

I don't know Arabic so forgive me if it's a dumb question.

advise them, seperate bed chamber with them, and do it again and again with them ....

everything make sense apart from barbarianism and beating the shit out of someone lol.

and i m not talking about arabic i m talking about the usage of this ARABIC word in urdu.

[Wakas]

According to Lane's lexicon:

"Daad-Ra-Ba = to heal, strike, propound as an example, put forth a parable, go, make a journey, travel, mix, avoid, take away, put a cover, shut, mention/declare/state, propound, set forth, compare, liken, seek a way, march on, set, impose, prevent, fight, traffic with anyone's property for a share in the profit, he made or caused to be or constituted, leave/forsake, take away thing (with 'an)."

Can idribuhunna in 4:34 be translated as "avoid them"?

Theoretically yes but it will run into the following issues:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606391.msg356146#msg356146
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609211.30

[Noon waalqalami]

Theoretically yes but it will run into the following issues:

peace Wakas had a chance to finally look at this.

Even if "shun" does not mean "move out", it still suffers from the problems in my list except 1, 4 and 8.
Until the above issues are resolved, I dont see a compelling case contrary to the findings of www.Quran434.com

It has been argued that idriboohunna in 4:34 means "separate (from) them" ('Quran: a Reformist Translation') or "go away from them" ('The Sublime Quran' by Laleh Bakhtiar), which interestingly has some support in the traditional commentaries and fits better than "strike/beat". However, I feel this translation is possible only as long as it does not imply divorce/talaq, as The Quran always uses the word talaq to mean divorce AND since the contract-breaking party compensates the other, it would be unfair for the husband to initiate divorce when he has done nothing wrong in this case. There are other problems with this understanding:
1) it is not quite a conflict-resolution step and if not meant to imply divorce/talaq then it seemingly penalises the husband implying he should move out.

2) any degree of leaving/separating/shunning may fall afoul of doing iAAradan (alienation / turning away) in 4:128, thus such a step may give the wife a legitimate reason for ending the marriage, thus unless clarified/limited this meaning does not fit well.

3) results in incoherence when DRB is used with a human as the direct object (see 43:57 and 2:73)

4) requires the insertion of "from" making this the only DRB example of this kind in The Quran, even though the preposition "AAn /from" is used with DRB in 43:5 in a very similar usage as being suggested here for 4:34.

Then you agree only meaning in context 4:35 fits perfectly is ?shun??

43:5 افنضرب afanaḍribu/that so we shun عنكم about you الذكر the reminder

Likewise cannot use other occurrences ا ض ر ب all different usage.
4:34 ?and shuns ye them? is the only complete thought/meaning.

Whereas ?and cites ye them? and/or ?and strikes/hits ye them? are not.
Hence broken incomplete actions, no object etc., unlike usages below...

2:60 اضرب iḍ'rib/strikes بعصاك with staff your الحجر the stone
7:160 اضرب iḍ'rib/strikes بعصاك with staff your الحجر the stone
26:63 اضرب iḍ'rib/strikes بعصاك with staff your البحر the sea

2:73 اضربوه iḍ'ribūhu/strikes ye him ببعضها with some it

8:12 فاضربوا fa-iḍ'ribū/so strikes ye of فوق over الاعناق the necks
8:12 واضربوا wa-iḍ'ribū/and strikes ye of منهم from them كل each بنان fingertip

18:32 واضرب wa-iḍ'rib/and strikes لهم for them مثلا similitude of
18:45 واضرب wa-iḍ'rib/and strikes لهم for them مثل similitude
36:13 واضرب wa-iḍ'rib/and strikes لهم for them مثلا similitude of

20:77 فاضرب fa-iḍ'rib/so strikes لهم for them طرىقا route of
38:44 فاضرب fa-iḍ'rib/so strikes به with it

5) provides no explanation as to how the authority find out about the issue in the marriage by 4:35
6) makes little sense when in the reversed role 4:128-129, discussed later.
7) seeming contradiction when in 4:34 the husband is ordered to "separate/leave" yet in 4:35 favours reconciliation
odd recommendation as the husband's fear is disloyalty in the unseen/private, yet moving out or separating will result in more unseen/private time
9) has no supporting example in Quran, see below.

5 ? does not say post on Facebook personal issues like some people hence 4:35 inform family.

6 & 7 ? read advice given to each in context of the whole.

4:128 وان and if امراه woman خافت fear she من from بعلها husband hers نشوزا recalcitrant of او or اعراضا aversions of فلا so not جنح guilt علىهما upon them dual ان that ىصلحا reconciled dual ?

8 & 9 ? again ?and shuns ye them? is not physical separation rather ?an attitude? and the only meaning which fits context when the word is parsed, otherwise a broken incomplete thought.

peace!

[Wakas]

peace Noon,

You only covered some of the issues raised, but in any case a common objection is that "cite them" is somehow incomplete even though 4:35 is a continuation of 4:34 and begins with wa/and, and in 4:35 it is clear the process has become formalised with the use of the plural you and "...appoint a judge from his family and a judge from hers..." not as you said "hence 4:35 inform family". Your rendition and the traditional explanation neglect to mention how/when the authority got involved.

[Noon waalqalami]

peace Wakas,

1.   phrase "cites ye them" by itself is incomplete not a word
2.   neither is "strikes ye them" by itself, likewise not a word
3.   Whereas "shuns ye them" is complete, know what to do

Likewise clearly states how/when and whom to notify, etc.

4:35 وان and if خفتم fear you شقاق schism بىنهما between them dual

It?s similar language nuance address to those in situation.

2:229 فان so if خفتم fear you الا that not ىقىما keep dual

[imrankhawaja]

actually ? SHUN them ? make more sense when applying to the current situation.

after trying hard of advising and seperating bed chamber with them if things still not working, then change the policy of advising but take action now whatever way both parties agree(MAN or WOMEN)  thats how relationships get reunion and seperated in most cases.

people BEFORE quran and AFTER quran try to add ?SPICES? in the scared TEXTs. ( including quran ). that verse is one of the best example of it sometimes spices totally change the taste of food lol.

[TellMeTheTruth]

Salam!

Why not idribuhunna = multiply them? Just an idea!

Peace!

[woke]

hello,  nisa does not mean women and rijal does not mean men please go here it will explain why through root words. https://thequranspeaksforitself.wordpress.com/2019/04/15/the-significance-of-root-words/

[TellMeTheTruth]

hello,  nisa does not mean women and rijal does not mean men please go here it will explain why through root words. https://thequranspeaksforitself.wordpress.com/2019/04/15/the-significance-of-root-words/

Salam!
I need to know/confirm whether these root meanings evolved before Quran or after it. Moreover, why have he not completed the translation of ayah.
Peace!

[Noon waalqalami]

hello,  nisa does not mean women and rijal does not mean men please go here it will explain why through root words. https://thequranspeaksforitself.wordpress.com/2019/04/15/the-significance-of-root-words/

peace, article has issues translating few verses suggests nonsense.

النسا l-nisāi/the womenfolk (pl. any age) below ties to untha/females.

4:176 وان and if كانوا be they of اخوه siblings رجلا menfolk of ونسا wanisāan/and womenfolk (3+)
فللذكر so to the male (gender) مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن l-unthayayni/the two (females)

e.g. 2/3 four sisters (1/6 each), 1/3 two brothers (1/6 each)
i.e. 1/3 to male gender equals exactly 1/3 the two females

likewise, always use context cross reference everything.

peace

[woke]

I need to know/confirm whether these root meanings evolved before Quran or after it. Moreover, why have he not completed the translation of ayah.
Peace!


he said  in a comment that he will address that later in a later post

[woke]

This post was addressing root words and their importance. The purpose of showing NISA does not mean women, due to a horizontal reading and root word definition, the intent of the post was not to translate 4:34. That will be addressed in a later post. The rest of the words in t
he verse must be subjected to the same scrutiny: root word definition and horizontal reading.

This is an update on the post  it is in the reply section
https://thequranspeaksforitself.wordpress.com/2019/04/15/the-significance-of-root-words/

[huruf]

I agree with rijaal and nisaa' being not necessarily men and women. As used in the Qur'an they are not physiological concepts but sociological ones.

But it is in that sociological sense quite possible that they can refer indeed to women and men as sexes, but also that they do not. The question is that, in the context, the meaning given fits seamlessly. 

In 4.34, in my view, and I am not the only one, far from that, the error in the understanding of this aya, is not in saying women or men but turning the clear words rijaal and nisaa into wives and husbands, no such a hint is given. Otherwise, the words fit perfectly as to women, all  women or women in general, and men, all men or men in general. Because it is also clear, that sociologically women are the bulk of nisaa', taken in the sociological context.
As it has been pointed out by many, women in fact constitute a social class and a subclass in every social class.

In 4.34 there is this:

فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللَّـهُ ۚ

So women who are virtuous are obedient to God and guard the hidden that  has guarded it.

This whole aya has been twisted and disguised in every possible way, corrupted, betrayed, insulting God and insulting intelligence. This sencence particularly has been turned to the service of husbands by many translations, most of them.

It could fit other contexts, but in the context of women and men, not husbands and wives, it fits to the dot.

God guards in the women's organs the conception and then guards the possible future new human being trough the different stages. God does not give a damn aout the secrets of husbands, more than he gives a damn about the secrets of wives, but several times all through the Qur'an points out to He being the only knower and disposer of the conception ans subsequent development of any new life. He guards it sand watches over it through the whole process. But since in this little sentence there is no man, no husband, it cannot possibly be that, it cannot be true. Anything direct between God and a woman, the new life, no, no, no, no. It hurts. 

This is indeed too hard a nut to swallow by male chauvinists. That it could be something between the woman and God, without the males managing the show, that cannot be, of course. So the next part of the aya, the nushuz is also turned to the stisfaction of male vanity. And the place where anybody, even homeless, lay down to sleep, the madaaji3, be it in the open air, be it under a bridge, be it inside a building, is turned against language, history and text, into a sexual scenario, a sexual bedroom, so that it can be made to fit the husband-wife arrangment that so well suits the male centric mentality.

The You second person plural retoric gender, which are the believers in general, of both sexes,  is turned into the "you the husbands". Nothing can exist, least of all women, if it is not revolving around the male star, the runner of the mondsane show.   

Again, another reading of this aya would also be possible other than men as such and women as such, but the one fitting men and women, is absolutely valid, seamlessly fitting, men and women, not husbands and wives which at no time are mentionned. 

Women in society, whether they have a husband or ot, do have children, guarded by God, even if no male responds for them. So this sentence:


فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللَّـهُ ۚ

So women who are virtuous are obedient to God and guard the hidden that  has guarded it.

is for them, for all women, for Maryam, who clearly fits this sentence.


Men in general benefit from reproduction, from the fact that there are coming generations, therefore, independently of if they have a wife or not, they have a responsibility to care for those who guaranty the existence of those generations?

Salaam