Is Quran anti- secular?

[mquran]

19/09/2005 11:43:52 Lote-Tree -your analogy fails in the respect that are millions of different programs available... and that is my point - Quran for you is your program - and thats great... but to others it is Bhagavad Gita, Buddhas Fire Sermon...etc...
19/09/2005 11:44:17 mq -no, the quran acknowledges the many different programs

Dear Secular Democrat who doesn't know what 'objective instruments of analysis' are, please read what YOU said 'MILLIONS' of different programs.

I responded to that o you who is unable to read...

MILLIONS of programs. can you see MILLIONS of scriptures?

Tsk tsk...scraping the bottom of the barrel now, are we?

[mquran]

One more message to the Secular Democrat, Robespierre the peaceful

How do i know you didn't change anything of the log? You're capable of making empty assertions so I'm not sure our logs is admissible evidence.

[mquran]

And Mquran, It is futile arguing with u coz u dont wish to see that GOD'S signs exsist outside Quran too. To u, God's signs and wisdom are in Quran only.

The fact that you think this shows how closely you've read my posts. You're right, its a futile exercise. Go on, keep misleading people with your 'respect the ones who are killing you' Quran.

[jonny_k]

Salam mquran,

You alleged I'm not 'quran only'. Im only answering you by telling you I couldn't care less. No offense.

Khi- Ok.

I've shown you the ayat. If you don't see ayat fil afaq wa fil anfus, what can I do, man ?

Khi- But i do and i believe you cant for 19 is one of those ayat, one of the greatest indeed.

Yes, anyone can write another 'quran' but would it be the one in eminence (az-zikr) ? Never. Az-zikr is the one known in the world and any changes would be immediately known.

Khi- Now thats a good one. Your accepting one part of GOD's protection method and rejecting the other one logically required. Memorization can guard against loss but NOT against addition and the immediate exposure argument is silly similar to those of the sunnis. A group can be formed over years sneaking in verses. Once it becomes dominant in the world it can claim to the other "muslims" that they are the ones who posess the complete Quran and not the others. Also this argument of yours again involves mere "majority check" while the Quran itself says that the majority will mislead rfom the path of GOD which is here the issue.

Innocent woman? Aisha Musa gave false information about al-quraan so she's not so innocent to me. Can do. I've emailed him to debate him on democracy. We can add on to 19 as well. Would you mind asking him.

Khi- It depends on whether she did it deliberately or by mistake. And yes that would be great a debate between you and bro Edip on code-19. I can phone him today if you want but id prefer you call him yourself. His no is 001-520-481 1919.

Hmm, lets start from beginning, ok?

19 is the miracle of the Quran, you assert. Correct?

If 19 is the miracle, why wasn't 19 mentioned as the 'even if' verses ? Why is there only mentioned the literal descent of a book on paper and the ascent of the person into heaven?

God's saying, EVEN IF he does this, they won't believe.

Why didn't he say EVEN IF he showed the most intricate 19 aspect, they wont believe? If 19 is the miracle of the Quran?

That's what im saying.

Khi- The miracle of code-19 was meant for our generation and it was kept hidden before, therefore the sura name 74 "the secret". This is so obvious. GOD Bless!

[mquran]

Khi- But i do and i believe you cant for 19 is one of those ayat, one of the greatest indeed

Ok.

Khi- Now thats a good one. Your accepting one part of GOD's protection method and rejecting the other one logically required. Memorization can guard against loss but NOT against addition and the immediate exposure argument is silly similar to those of the sunnis. A group can be formed over years sneaking in verses. Once it becomes dominant in the world it can claim to the other "muslims" that they are the ones who posess the complete Quran and not the others. Also this argument of yours again involves mere "majority check" while the Quran itself says that the majority will mislead rfom the path of GOD which is here the issue.

Congratulations on UNDERSTANDING my thesis. I admire this about you, Khi, you take the trouble to read even if you are on the 'opposing camp'. You're one of the guys who makes staying on FM worth it. Cheers.

What you have hypothesised could happen, but hasn't. Proof? Al-quraan is totally consistent (4/82).

Khi- It depends on whether she did it deliberately or by mistake. And yes that would be great a debate between you and bro Edip on code-19. I can phone him today if you want but id prefer you call him yourself. His no is 001-520-481 1919.

I've never called him and he doesn't know me. If you want, by all means please do so.

Khi- The miracle of code-19 was meant for our generation and it was kept hidden before, therefore the sura name 74 "the secret". This is so obvious. GOD Bless!

Sorry, i believe there's no change in the sunnatullah. I believe that those two examples were given due to the essence of man being constant. Man will have always have his earth and sky. Its an inescapable aspect of his being.

[jonny_k]

Salam mquran,

Congratulations on UNDERSTANDING my thesis. I admire this about you, Khi, you take the trouble to read even if you are on the 'opposing camp'. You're one of the guys who makes staying on FM worth it. Cheers.

What you have hypothesised could happen, but hasn't. Proof? Al-quraan is totally consistent (4/82).

Khi- The fact that it didnt happen cannot  be a proof for the consistency of the Quran since theres a very high possibility of this to happen. This is just when i make a law that you mquran cannot leave freeminds forum and then you stay in this forum for lets say 30 yrs. This wont prove my thesis nor the consistency of my statement. Its only when you try to leave the forum and then my secret agents force you to stay that my law is proven. Similar is the case with the Quran. Somebody has to try to make additions and those need to be forced out in order for the Quran'ss thesis to be proven, get it?And this is exactly what hppened in 1974.

I've never called him and he doesn't know me. If you want, by all means please do so.

Khi- Ok though he seems very busy these days ill try GW.

Sorry, i believe there's no change in the sunnatullah. I believe that those two examples were given due to the essence of man being constant. Man will have always have his earth and sky. Its an inescapable aspect of his being.

Khi- What is this now your saying? How come sending a miracle is a change in the sunnatullah??? This IS THE SUNNATULLAH according to 2:106:
[2:106]  When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
GOD Bless!

[Fahad]

I've shown you the ayat. If you don't see ayat fil afaq wa fil anfus, what can I do, man ?

Khi- But i do and i believe you cant for 19 is one of those ayat, one of the greatest indeed.

[2:106] When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?

salam.

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=65351#65351




.

[Fahad]

Innocent woman? Aisha Musa gave false information about al-quraan so she's not so innocent to me. Can do. I've emailed him to debate him on democracy. We can add on to 19 as well. Would you mind asking him.

Khi- It depends on whether she did it deliberately or by mistake. And yes that would be great a debate between you and bro Edip on code-19. I can phone him today if you want but id prefer you call him yourself. His no is 001-520-481 1919.

salam.
have mercy bros . give Edip some rest . how many times has he debated on code-19 , and now you want more ?

debate on 'democracy' would be OK , but how many times will he debate on 19 ?

[mquran]

Salaamun alaikum,

Khi: The fact that it didnt happen cannot be a proof for the consistency of the Quran since theres a very high possibility of this to happen. This is just when i make a law that you mquran cannot leave freeminds forum and then you stay in this forum for lets say 30 yrs. This wont prove my thesis nor the consistency of my statement. Its only when you try to leave the forum and then my secret agents force you to stay that my law is proven. Similar is the case with the Quran. Somebody has to try to make additions and those need to be forced out in order for the Quran'ss thesis to be proven, get it?And this is exactly what hppened in 1974.

HUH? Since there's a high possibility of corruption, this cannot be proof ? What's that, dude? The 'high probability' is coming from you. All I know is:

Allah : if the Quran is from other than Allah, it'd have contradictions.

Fact : Al-quraan has no contradictions.

Therefore al-quraan must be from Allah.

If someone inserted anything into al-quraan, only part of al-quraan would be from Allah and therefore, it would have contradictions.

Khi- What is this now your saying? How come sending a miracle is a change in the sunnatullah??? This IS THE SUNNATULLAH according to 2:106:
[2:106] When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?

I'm saying those 2 verses in the thread above are the ULTIMATE things Allah does to prove the truth, but EVEN SO, people wont believe. The ultimate thing isnt 19, but those 2 experiences above.

As for 2/106, the word there isnt mujiza or miracle, its ayaat or SIGN. Further, these ayat werent given to prophets. Read 2/105, 'an yunazzila alaiKUM' , i.e. in plural. This is not talking about some miraculous event but rather our experiences of God's signs.

[Ali Omar]

Dear mquran,

Do you think God has given the quran to humanity so that we can divide ourselves up into ?muslims? and ?non-muslims??

Misleading question. The essential being of humankind is ummatan wahid, a single ummah however, since people seek things between themselves, its THEY who cause themselve to be divided (2/213). So you can either be in submission to God's system or not.

Then I take it you mean that God has not given us the quran in order to divide ourselves. That we ourselves are doing it despite the words of God?
Why is it then that we are calling each other ?muslims? and ?non-muslims?? I.e. dividing ourselves, and still claim to believe in the words of God which says NOT to do that?

The rules and regulations in the quran are not there first and foremost to punish anyone; they are there to tell us how to behave in order for all of humanity to live in a best possible and balanced way.

This is your opinion. Evidence please.

Well, if this is not the case then the opposite must be true, the quran is there, first and foremost, to punish us and not to guide us. I do not hold that as very likely.


If you are a person who tries to live according to the words of God then you may be a ?muslim?. If you don?t, you may not be. But, again, this is not for us to decide.
Whatever pledge you give is not worth anything, unless you follow it up with actions. To claim to be a ?muslim? doesn?t make you a ?muslim?. To claim to be a cook doesn?t make you a cook.
Nobody can enter an ?islamic domain? through a pledge, only through the way of life and our actions. Way of life and actions according to the words of God is the ?islamic domain?.

You can not ?sign on? as a citizen of islam and due to this be required to abide by the laws of islam. It is the other way around. It is only through abiding by the laws of islam that you may become a ?member? of that community.

If the quran is not ?a guide to an optimal form of democracy (?rule? by the people)? then what is it?
When it is informing us of how to behave, live and function, is it not guiding us to the best way of life? Is it not giving us clues as to how to ?rule? ourselves within the framework of the system of God?

It is not difficult to understand the text in the quran saying ?an eye for an eye?. If we follow this to the letter does it mean that if somebody makes another person blind, he/she must also be blinded?
Does this make sense? Is this the best solution for everybody? Or is the one who has been wronged, and the humanity at large, better off by finding another solution to the situation at hand?

When we translate ?laa yuminoon? into meaning ?they do not believe?, we must try to find out what this ?believe?-thing is. It does not take too much research to find out that it means a kind of belief based on a certain degree of knowledge. I.e. they actually do not have knowledge enough to ?believe? with certainty.
The acquisition of knowledge is made inaccessible to them.

Yes, the quran is obligatory on us, but if we take every word in the quran literally we have not understood the message from God. It says that we have to study all of it and find what is ?best?.
Now, ?best? for whom, for God, or for one particular individual, or for the human community?

Regards

Ali Omar