News:

About us: a forum for monotheists, and discussion of Islam based on The Quran

Main Menu

The Supposed Quran Chronological Error: "Mary, sister of Aaron" - Refuted!

Started by ZeZe, March 31, 2024, 02:47:50 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

ZeZe

In the Name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful

Peace be upon you all :)

Introduction:

Before delving into this topic, it's important to acknowledge that it can be perplexing and may lead some individuals to question or even leave Islam. However, through careful examination and research, one can conclude that there are no chronological errors involved. I hold the belief that within the Qur'an, certain aspects are deliberately left open to interpretation, providing what could be viewed as "easy exits" for those with malicious intent or those seeking justification to stray from the path of Islam. This particular topic falls into that category.

In this article, I aim to demonstrate that there are valid arguments suggesting the absence of error, and that this serves as one of the avenues through which individuals may choose to depart from Islam, should they so desire. God has not made the Qur'an in such a way that when somebody reads it, that he cannot find what seemingly looks like errors (be it in history, science, or anything else). He has made it so that it apparently all is accurate, but left minor issues open to interpretation.

We can conclude the following:

- The name of Mary's father is completely unknown in both history and the canonical Gospels. He is only mentioned as "Joachim" (a Greek name!) in the gospel of James, and this is an apocrypha (a gospel rejected by all Christians). Thus, his name remains unknown. The Qur'an can make any claim and it would still be valid from a historical and Christian perspective.

- If Mary had any siblings is also unknown, both from the canonical Gospels and apocrypha. The Qur'an can even here make any claim and it would still be valid from a historical and Christian perspective.

- There is no mention of any Miriam (Moses and Aaron's sister) related to Amram found in the earliest fragments of the Torah. It can be argued that she was a daughter of Amram was a later fabrication concocted by the Masoretes to make it look like the Qur'an contains a chronological mistake. I haven't researched all of the manuscripts (before the 6th century), but I have looked at the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus and the chapters that mention Miriam as Amram's daughter are not present in these codexes, which would have made it very easy for them to fabricate whatever they so desired. I am a strong believer in that the Masoretes were fierce opponents of Islam and did what they did only to discredit Islam and justify the entire Bible, I have proven this through countless posts here on Reddit.

- The Qur'an does not conflate the stories or eras of Mary with that of Moses and Aaron. It rather does the exact opposite.

Let's begin the response.

1. Did the Qur'an think Mary and Jesus were from the same era as Moses and Aaron?

The straightforward response to this is negative. To substantiate this assertion, we would need to present a verse that unequivocally indicates such a notion prior to the revelation of Surah 3 (Al-Imran), as any post-Surah 3 content could be interpreted as an attempt to rectify an earlier error. In Surah 2:87, God states:

Quote"And indeed, We gave Moses the book, and We caused to follow after him messengers. And We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the spirit of holiness. So is it that every time a messenger comes to you with what does not meet your desires, you become arrogant and a party you deny and a party you kill?" (2:87)

The phrase "We gave Moses the book, and We caused to follow after him messengers" explicitly indicates that the author of the Qur'an was aware of a succession of messengers between Moses and Jesus. The mention of Moses and Jesus in this context, along with the specific reference to a lineage of messengers between them, serves the sole purpose (and I genuinely believe this) of providing a clear response to the contention of chronological error raised in Surah 19:28, "O sister of Aaron."

In other words, why would the Qur'an be stating that there was a line of messengers sent between Moses and Jesus if not for this exact purpose?

2. Does Sura 3 narrate the stories of Moses and Aaron?

It does not, it does mention them by name but it also mentions Abraham and others by name, while it does not narrate any of their stories. If the author of the Qur'an really conflated the eras of Mary with that of Moses/Aaron, then why are their stories not narrated in this chapter? Why would an entire chapter be named after "Amram" the father of Moses and Aaron, yet fail to narrate their stories? Because it's not about Amram or Moses and Aaron. It's about Mary and her family (and father, whose name was 'Imran).

3. "House of Abraham" and "House of 'Imran" - Abraham and Amram? no!

This is one of the concerns that they raise against the Qur'an when it comes to this topic: Why are Moses and Aaron omitted in 3:33:

Quote"God did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people-" (3:33)

And then they say "So did God mention the family of Abraham and 'Imran, Mary's father, and omitted Amram and hence omitted Moses and Aaron?"....

...Read the rest of this article here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Quraniyoon/comments/1bpojs8/mary_sister_of_aaron_the_full_and_final_muslim/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

______________________________________

Does anyone else have more gems to add? I'd highly appreciate if y'all could get a little involved so we could completely solidify this rebuttal :).

Miriam is called "Sister of Aaron" in the Old Testament. Why specifically "... of Aaron" even confused the rabbis and they've suggested a few various interpretations. But it is still a bit strange that Mary also is called the same way in the Qur'an even though it is crystal clear that the Qur'an doesn't conflate their time periods. Would be great if someone could perhaps share some light on this issue.

Salam! / Your bro, Exion.

Emre_1974tr

No, the Koran gives the chronology perfectly.

Mary is the sister of Aaron and Moses.

Jesus is the nephew of Aaron and Moses.


https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9612492.msg442619#msg442619
[url="https://twitter.com/Emre_1974tr"]https://twitter.com/Emre_1974tr[/url]

[url="http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com/"]http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com/[/url]

good logic

So where do you place David and Solomon?
They came at least a century after Moses
Surely they were before Jesus.  In fact Solomon built the temple.
Zacharia brought up Meriem the mother of Jesus.
Zacharia was a priest in the temple after the Jews came back from exile to the promised land a second time.
Hence Jesus was  at the same time as Zacharia the priest,
All these are history facts . Qoran clarifies this for us as well.
The sister of Aaron in Qoran just means from the same family of priests.

GOD bless.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28[/url]

Emre_1974tr

Quote from: good logic on March 31, 2024, 07:53:14 AMSo where do you place David and Solomon?
They came at least a century after Moses
Surely they were before Jesus.  In fact Solomon built the temple.
Zacharia brought up Meriem the mother of Jesus.
Zacharia was a priest in the temple after the Jews came back from exile to the promised land a second time.
Hence Jesus was  at the same time as Zacharia the priest,
All these are history facts . Qoran clarifies this for us as well.
The sister of Aaron in Qoran just means from the same family of priests.

GOD bless.
Peace.

Zechariah or any other prophet was not a priest.

Prophets David and Solomon came after Moses and Jesus.

Only the Quran gives the true history.

2:136. Say: "We believe in Allah and in that which has been sent down to us, and in that which was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and his descendants, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and that which was given to the other Prophets. We are only those who submit to Him/Allah."

Notice that in this verse, the name of Prophet Jesus is mentioned right after Moses...

3:84 Say: "We believe in God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We do not make a distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit."

Again,
Notice that in this verse, the name of Prophet Jesus is mentioned right after Moses...

4:163 We have inspired you as We had inspired Noah and the prophets after him. And We had inspired Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and Jesus, and Job, and Jonah, and Aaron, and Solomon; and We gave David the Psalms.

Here Solomon and David come after Jesus in chronology, or even last.

****

Notice that Jesus is not talking about confirming the Zabur given to the Prophet David. Because the Zabur had not yet come.


Peace
[url="https://twitter.com/Emre_1974tr"]https://twitter.com/Emre_1974tr[/url]

[url="http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com/"]http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com/[/url]

Bajram Hoxhaj

Quote from: Emre_1974tr on March 31, 2024, 05:10:48 PMHere Solomon and David come after Jesus in chronology, or even last.

:nope: study carefully before littering every thread.

2:87
and hath assuredly gave we of Musa the writ (book)
and sent we of from after him with the messengers
and gave we of Isa son Maryam the evidence

2:246-253 from after Musa ...
and slew David Jaluta (Goliath) ...
and gave we of Isa son Maryam the evidence

4:163 indeed we inspires we of to you like inspires we of towards Noah
and the prophets from after him
and inspires we of towards Ibrahym
and Ismail
and Isaac
and Yakub
and the tribes
and Isa
and Ayyub
and Yunus
and Aaron
and Suleiman
and gave we of Dawood psalm of

6:83-86
and those case ours gave we its Ibrahym ...
and bequeath we of to him Isaac
and Yakub each of guide we of
and Noah of guide we of from before
and of progeny his Dawood
and Suleiman
and Ayyub
and Yusuf
and Musa
and Aaron
and like such we compensate those good doers
and Zakariyya
and Yahya
and Isa
and Elias each among the righteous
and Ismail
and Elisha
and Yunus
and Lut of
and each of bounty we of over the worlds inhabitants

Emre_1974tr

Quote from: Emre_1974tr on March 31, 2024, 05:10:48 PMZechariah or any other prophet was not a priest.

Prophets David and Solomon came after Moses and Jesus.

Only the Quran gives the true history.

2:136. Say: "We believe in Allah and in that which has been sent down to us, and in that which was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and his descendants, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and that which was given to the other Prophets. We are only those who submit to Him/Allah."

Notice that in this verse, the name of Prophet Jesus is mentioned right after Moses...

3:84 Say: "We believe in God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We do not make a distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit."

Again,
Notice that in this verse, the name of Prophet Jesus is mentioned right after Moses...

4:163 We have inspired you as We had inspired Noah and the prophets after him. And We had inspired Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and Jesus, and Job, and Jonah, and Aaron, and Solomon; and We gave David the Psalms.

Here Solomon and David come after Jesus in chronology, or even last.

****

Notice that Jesus is not talking about confirming the Zabur given to the Prophet David. Because the Zabur had not yet come.


Peace

Stories such as Osiris and Horus were derived and invented after the prophet Jesus/Isa/Joshua.

3:47 She said: "My Lord, how can I have a son when no human being has been with me?" He said: "It is thus that God creates what He wills, when He decrees a command, He merely says to it 'Be,' and it is."

3:48 He teaches him the book and the Wisdom, the Torah and the Injeel.


The Zabur actually came after the Torah and the Gospel, and therefore are not mentioned in the verses about the life of Jesus.

[url="https://twitter.com/Emre_1974tr"]https://twitter.com/Emre_1974tr[/url]

[url="http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com/"]http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com/[/url]

hawk99

Peace,

 :) Again, like the age of Noah, which one of you intellectual giants will win the contest. :yes

 Yusuf Ali: 3:7 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

God bless


                                 :peace:
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

good logic

Peace Emre.
No. you are not consistent with your explanation.
Jesus mentioned straight after Moses has nothing to do with chronological order
 GOD often groups prophets in no particular order of who came first or last.

If we follow your explanation we end up with this anomaly in Surah 21. GOD is listing many prophets , but Jesus does not come after Moses. Actually Jesus along with his mother are mentioned last.21:90.

Sorry I do not share your understanding.. Nowhere in Qoran does GOD say or even indicate that Jesus came next straight after Moses. The only indication is that Moses came before Jesus.
As for Zabur came after the Gospel of Jesus ,that is your assumption or state the verse/s that clarify this for you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28[/url]

Bajram Hoxhaj

Quote from: good logic on April 01, 2024, 09:47:08 AMAs for Zabur came after the Gospel of Jesus ,that is your assumption or state the verse/s that clarify this for you.

His every post is assumption arguing with himself and never answering any questions.

Quote from: hawk99 on April 01, 2024, 08:48:55 AMYusuf Ali: 3:7 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical.

What is "from after" that is not clear?

2:246-253 from after Musa ...
and slew David Goliath ...
and gave we of Isa son Maryam the evidence

We know Christianity began circa 50 CE
https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

We know Iron Age began circa 1200 BCE
17:55 and gave we of David psalm of
34:10 and made we of to him the iron


This refers to the sister of Musa
28:11 and said she to sister his, "follow him"

This refers to a title years later
19:27-28 ...
O Maryam! hath assuredly came thou thing of bewilderment
O sister Aaron! not kāna father your elder evil and not kānat mother your unchaste of

Emre_1974tr

Quote from: hawk99 on April 01, 2024, 08:48:55 AMPeace,

 :) Again, like the age of Noah, which one of you intellectual giants will win the contest. :yes

 Yusuf Ali: 3:7 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

God bless


                                 :peace:

The verse does not say that others are figurative. He says that all the verses are in the plain first meaning. But it says that some verses have secondary and tertiary meanings besides their obvious primary meaning. Those who have diseases in their hearts try to accept the symbolic meaning by denying the obvious first meaning.

These methods are like saying "this is metaphorical" to a verse you don't like and deny it in a masked way. And then you try to show the symbolic meaning of the verse as the primary meaning. This cruelty is practised by many people.
[url="https://twitter.com/Emre_1974tr"]https://twitter.com/Emre_1974tr[/url]

[url="http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com/"]http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com/[/url]