Author Topic: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back  (Read 73596 times)

Mazhar

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #50 on: June 03, 2010, 01:58:54 PM »
peace Mazhar,

Can you clarify where 8:50 & 47:27 fit into your sequence?

living ---> death ---> resurrection ---> judgement ---> punishment/reward
Thanks.

Angels segregate people from others at the time of their death. Segregation follows death or without death in case of getting killed in the Cause of Allah. And criminals and righteous are to be segregated on the Day of Resurrection by the Angels and escorted to their respective places.


Indeed the ones whom the Angels segregated/separated them [on resurrection, from other people by recognizing them from visible signs], those who wronged and did injustice to their selves, they were asked, "In what circumstances were you people?" [On the Day of Resurrection the Angels who recognize by signs shall arrest/collect all criminals immediately after their revival to life and segregate/separate them forcibly from other people-7:37;8:50-51;16:28;47:27-28]

Chapter 4 Verse 97


till such time when Our sent ones/messengers [37:22] will alienate/segregate them [on revival/resurrection].
[This is asked on the Day of Resurrection 6:22;16:27;26:92-93]
They asked them, "where are those whom you used to call apart from Allah?".......................


They were asked; "You people enter into the Hell to join generations of Jinn and human beings that had passed before you people in time" [each generation is adjudged in sequence and sent to Prison]

Chapter 7 Verses 37-39

[Read 47:27]
And if you could visualize [the scene after revival/resurrection] when the Angels will undertake intensively to alienate/segregate those who deliberately and persistently denied [and had died as rejecters], by slashing on their faces and backs [until they make them enter into Hell-Prison]

[Saying] "And you people taste the scorching of heat/fire/temperature. [8:50]
[Replica 3:182 with difference of dagger Alif]
This is the result/effect/outcome of that which your hands had sent in advance. And certainly Allah is never unjust to His created ones". [8:51]


those whom the Angels are segregating/alienating as wrong doers to their selves". [On the Day of Resurrection the Angels who recognize by signs shall arrest/collect all criminals immediately after their revival to life and segregate/separate them forcibly from other people-4:97;7:37;8:50-51;47:27-28] ...............

Therefore [as a result thereof] you people enter the gates of Hell to dwell therein for ever".

Chapter 16 Verses 27-29

[And for contrast please see

whom the Angels will respectfully/pleasantly separate saying,
[Same information in 39:73]
"Peace and tranquility is upon you people; you people enter into the Paradise for what you people had been doing" [16:32]


Thereat [after revival/resurrection] how [would they interact secretively] when the Angels had undertaken intensively to alienate/segregate them

by slashing on their faces and backs [until they made them enter into Hell-Prison] [47:27]

This happened to them because they consciously and purposely followed that which caused for Allah taking criminal cognizance against them

Chapter 47 Verses 27-28

I hope it makes evident that slashing is being done on the Day of Judgment and not at the time of death. If you have seen a scence when Police is arresting criminals or trouble creators from a mob/big crowd of people, which is quite a common scence on streets of my country, the scences of Day of Judgment become visual clips.







Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2010, 02:52:50 PM »
peace Mazhar,

I think the malaika taking them at "resurrection" is a possibility, however this does not change the translation I gave. It would be very interesting to establish the sequence however.

Is there any clear example in AQ about punishment prior to day of judgement? I couldn't find any. If so, the only option left is what you suggest: I assume you mean once the verdict is given on J-Day, then 8:50 & 47:27 takes place?

Interestingly, every translator I read said it was at death, so I am wondering why they said this.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Mazhar

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #52 on: June 03, 2010, 03:27:59 PM »
peace Mazhar,

I think the malaika taking them at "resurrection" is a possibility, however this does not change the translation I gave. It would be very interesting to establish the sequence however.

Is there any clear example in AQ about punishment prior to day of judgement? I couldn't find any. If so, the only option left is what you suggest: I assume you mean once the verdict is given on J-Day, then 8:50 & 47:27 takes place?

Interestingly, every translator I read said it was at death, so I am wondering why they said this.

The conjectural story of Return of Easa alahissalam seems to have haunted them. And secondly because Jalalain made an error of translating  يُتَوَفَّوْنَ  as  يَمُوتُونَ .

Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2010, 02:00:51 PM »
peace all,

I would like to know if there is anyone who has read all of the study on www.Quran434.com and disagrees with it. If so, why? It would help me a lot to understand peoples views if you let me know. Thanks.

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Bigmo

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2010, 02:57:22 PM »
1.  Fair enough. It might not be necessary though, I can cite someone through my own volition.   I think these are just prescriptory phases.
2. Ok
3. I am assuming that in 4:34, she is the cause of the problem, and in 4:128, he is the cause of the problem.  This is because though it only says if we fear, the Quran prescribes in other situations that privacy is to be respected and false baseless accusations are wrong. 

[104:1] Woe to every backbiter, slanderer.

This fear is not wild guesses then, it has to be supported with some solid evidence.  How else would authorities delegate guilt?

4.  If I am understanding your implication, this point is a genetic fallacy.  My view could be subjective but that does not count as an attack against whether it is truthful or not.

5.  It does not need to be there.  It is just what I think.  If I wrote my own tafseer, I would say I believe these leave them period is short because etc.

The linguistic gymnastics I am referring too are my own.  In order to support the definition of leave them, I have to answer the questions above in a manner that delimit definitions and such.  Your argument seems easier to defend than mine.

Peace

Very good point. Fear by itself is not enough evidence or justification. So how can you justify beating when all you have is just fear? Elsehwere we see in Quran that an accusation by a spouse was supposed to be backed with evidence and accusation as we know is much stronger than fear or suspicion.
88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe

Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2010, 08:52:24 AM »
peace Bigmo, all,

I have reworded a section in the study to:

Quote
If it is only the husband who fears disloyalty/uprising/infidelity, or even if he is sure of it, and if there are no witnesses/evidence, then he must follow the procedure in 24:6-9 and cannot take it upon himself to administer any punishment. Since a "fear/suspicion", as in 4:34, is certainly less than being sure, it also cannot warrant any punishment. Anything to the contrary would be an internal inconsistency in The Quran's ruling.

And for those of you who have read it here is some very interesting information I came across recently, which I have also added (the part in bold):

Quote
Also, however the court/authority came to find out about the couple in 4:34-35, how did the court/authority come to find out about the couple in 58:1-4 in the exact same situation of breach/rift, i.e. no resolution? She cited the husband to the authority. If the traditional position somehow implies the couple used a different method in 4:34 to make the authority aware of the situation, then they have to explain why the difference between the two examples, without causing a logical and practical inconsistency. For example, in "K. al nasikh wa-l-mansukh" by Abu Ubaid al-Qasim b. Sallam (d. 224AH/839), one of the earliest works in its field, it comments on the tafsir/interpretation of 4:35 and says "the story establishes the principle that the spouses may withdraw their invitation to the authorities to act". Thus, it is clear from the traditional commentary the spouse would inform the court/authority of the problem, before they intervened. This provides a perfect link with DaRaBa and all points to one answer: in a situation of no reconciliation and the partner in the wrong will not initiate divorce/release, the step prior to the authority intervening is for one partner to cite/indicate the other (to the authority).

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2010, 04:27:37 AM »

www.quran434.com/about-the-author.html

It only took me 8 years after joining the forum to write my story. Better late than never  :)
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

san

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #57 on: August 29, 2010, 09:18:10 AM »
www.quran434.com/about-the-author.html

It only took me 8 years after joining the forum to write my story. Better late than never  :)

ooh, the guy in the corner under the tree-- what's he doing there


True Love waits forever -- some just choose to fall in love sooner than some others. And the rest is by the way... nothing.

siki

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #58 on: August 29, 2010, 01:35:09 PM »
ooh, the guy in the corner under the tree-- what's he doing there

I dont know why, but i always had this picture of yours in my mind. ;D

siki

Wakas

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Re: Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
« Reply #59 on: August 29, 2010, 02:22:09 PM »
san, I was contemplating, as i often do...... well, that, and posing for a pic obviously.  ;D
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org