In the Name of Allah, The Almighty, The All-Merciful.
I want you people to notice a thing, and then discuss about it.
Visit quranix.org, and jump to verse 2:219
2:219
Reformist Translation: They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say, "In them is great HARM, and a benefit for people; but their HARM is greater than their benefit." They ask you how much are they to give, say, "The excess." Thus, God clarifies for you the signs that you may think.
Monotheist Translation: They ask you about alcohol and gambling. Say: "In them is great HARM, and a benefit for the people; but their HARM is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say: "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
You will notice that the word "ithm" is translated as "harm" instead of "sin".
But then, in many other verses the very same word "ithm" has been translated as "sin"...!
4:107
Reformist: Do not argue on behalf of those who betray themselves. God does not like those who are betrayers, SINNERS.
Monotheist: And do not argue on behalf of those who betray themselves. God does not love those who are betrayers, SINNERS.
7:33
Reformist: Say, "My Lord has forbidden all lewd action, what is obvious from them and what is subtle, and SIN, aggression without cause, your setting up partners with God that were never authorized by Him, and saying about God what you do not know."
Monotheist: Say: "My Lord has made unlawful immorality; what is public of it and private; and SIN, and aggression without cause, and that you set up partners with God that which He has never authorized, and that you say about God what you do not know."
In all of the above verses, the word "Ithm" has been translated as "Sin" except for the verses regarding intoxicants.
Is this not an attempt to manipulate the Word of God, trying to make lawful what he has prohibited?
He does not say "Intoxicants are Haram", but:
- Using intoxicants is a Sin (Ithm)
- Sins are Haram (7:33, uses a verb coming from the same root of Haram)
- Therefore, intoxicants are Haram
Notice: If you visit free-minds.org/quran, then you will notice that this has instead changed:
2:219
Monotheist Translation: They ask you about alcohol and gambling. Say: "In them is much SIN, and a benefit for the people; but their SIN is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say: "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
Also, is there a justification for the choice of translating "al-Khamri" to "Alcohol" instead of "Intoxicants"?
I think that "khamri" could also include other substances that have an obfuscating action on the brain, such as psychedelics (LSD, DMT, ...) and meth.
God bless you All.
Because they're gyappas
What is the definition of sin? Is it a magical word that should stop any discussion of something because once we say it is a sin, there no more to say? Because that is what sin has come to mean in christianity and people now laugh at it. So a definition before dealing with it would be necessary.
The Qur'an makes it abundantly clear that what wrong we do we do it against ourselves, against God we cannot do anything.
So what is the big deal, harming oneself and harming others is what? a good deed?
Of course intoxicants are a harm, and since we are duly warned if we still push them as normal and harmless then, what are we doing? It does not matter what you call them, but that we are conscious of what they entail, what they entail is destruction of ourselves and societies.
There are much more harming translations of many things int he Qur'an that betray it.
And also the endless "debate on whether khamr is haram, again as if haram was a magic word that if it is not there would do harmful things harmless. That is a subject that comes up continuously .
On the other hand in this aya 219 there is the mention that there is some benefit to it but that the ithm (whatever you translaTE) is greater. So in a sense translating harm as antonym of benefit is not all that wrong, although of course is not as magical as "sin", or haram. Haram since it is not there when the Qur'an speaks about khamr is used by many who think that drinking spirits is ok, thus disregarding what the Qur'an explains. ?Why, on earth did God bother explaining, when just putting a "haram" in would avoid troubling people with the unbearable burden of thinking and taking responsibility for what they do.
If you do harm deliberately is it a sin? Jege yourself.
Again, fine, we may split hairs with this particular translation of this aya, but I do not see that it is very conflicting. As said, there are many, many translations of elemnts in the Qur'an that of far much more concern.
God's explains things int he Qur'an but people wants to do away with those explanations and reduce everything to haram or halal or sin or not sin. That is not the question. God gives explanations so we are conscious of what we do and its import, not push buttons machines.
Salaam
Peace Isa,
Thank You. In Khamr is great ithm, and ithm is according to 7:33 haram, simple as that.
Quote from: Rilum on March 22, 2018, 05:24:14 AM
Peace Isa,
Thank You. In Khamr is great ithm, and ithm is according to 7:33 haram, simple as that.
You are the MVP
Salaam,
I got your point.
We then both acknowledge that Khamr is Ithm, and Ithm is Haram, but you think that Haram is something more on a personal level?
I am sure that of course each one of us in the end is responsible for one's own actions, but we must remember that it's a duty upon us to teach the good things to our brothers and keep them away from the harmful things. For example, I refer to verse 7:157, where it says that those who follow the ummy prophet which "commands right and forbids wrong", those are the successful ones.
Based on the understanding that ithm is defined as haram and that in khamr there is ithm, wouldn't it be better for a community to avoid it, maybe not by making it illegal as we all should know that prohibitionism fails, but discourage it at a social level?
Quote from: Rilum on March 22, 2018, 05:24:14 AM
Peace Isa,
Thank You. In Khamr is great ithm, and ithm is according to 7:33 haram, simple as that.
Peace
Not so fast brother Rilum, what about:قُلْ فِيهِمَا إِثْمٌ كَبِيرٌ وَمَنَافِعُ لِلنَّاس 2:219 They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and benefit for people.
Nun-Fa-Ayn = to profit, do good, be useful, beneficial. (https://thewiseandthewicked.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/not-answering-emails.jpg?w=660)
That's not a good objection.
So because something sinful might have a benefit then it should be lawful?
No, killing dumb retarded idiots might be beneficial to me and many intellectuals in the world but it doesn't make unwarranted killing a good or lawful thing.
Quote from: HP_TECH on March 22, 2018, 11:34:32 PM
That's not a good objection.
So because something sinful might have a benefit then it should be lawful?
No, killing dumb retarded idiots might be beneficial to me and many intellectuals in the world but it doesn't make unwarranted killing a good or lawful thing.
Salam/Peace i recommend see the whole verse Hawk99 is trying to show:
2:219
يسلونك عن الخمر والميسر قل فيهما اثم كبير ومنفع للناس واثمهما اكبر من نفعهما ويسلونك ماذا ينفقون قل العفو كذلك يبين الله لكم الءايت لعلكم تتفكرونYas-aloonaka AAani alkhamri waalmaysiriqul feehima ithmun kabeerun wamanafiAAu lilnnasiwa-ithmuhuma akbaru min nafAAihima wayas-aloonaka mathayunfiqoona quli alAAafwa kathalika yubayyinu Allahulakumu al-ayati laAAallakum tatafakkaroona
They ask you about alcohol and gambling. Say: "In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say: "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
Quote from: IsaMuslim on March 22, 2018, 04:56:52 PM
Salaam,
I got your point.
We then both acknowledge that Khamr is Ithm, and Ithm is Haram, but you think that Haram is something more on a personal level?
I am sure that of course each one of us in the end is responsible for one's own actions, but we must remember that it's a duty upon us to teach the good things to our brothers and keep them away from the harmful things. For example, I refer to verse 7:157, where it says that those who follow the ummy prophet which "commands right and forbids wrong", those are the successful ones.
Based on the understanding that ithm is defined as haram and that in khamr there is ithm, wouldn't it be better for a community to avoid it, maybe not by making it illegal as we all should know that prohibitionism fails, but discourage it at a social level?
That is precisely the question, each muslim should defend the health and integrity of all the others by the means within his or her reach. To impose things on others is not feasible, but to impose things on ourselves it is feasible. And teaching others, if we are convinced that we have something to teach the best way to do it is to behave in such a way that is convincing. Giving orders as if we were entitled is not the way. Talking and iscussing properly and behaving acocrding to what our avowed beliefs are is more convincing.
erst
As to alcohol and others hard drugs, abstaining voluntarily is the most constructive. In that way we help people that might feel tempted by the general trend to drink because everybody drinks. We should think of those who are not bad persons but do have a tendency or weakness for that. The best help we can give them is to male alcohol rarer and not go along with the trend that those who do not drink are boring or do not like life. But for that we should may be ban words such as haram or sin, because people then think that we do not drink because we are afraid or because we are stupid. We should have good reasons for not drinking and God gives them. Why should we neglect thsoe reasons, those are the reasons why God warns us not to drink, why ignore those reasons and carry on as if we were trained berasts that answer to the leash they do nto understand.
On the other hand, the reasons the Qur'an gives are well known even without Qur'an. That alcoh9ol is a social plague is well known. Beause some people enjoy it and find in it a lot of pleasure or distinction or standing in life with knowledge about this and that harvest, that does nto detract from the fact that alcohol is one of the scourges of many societies. Always full of danger and always unalarming. Apart from the deaths it causes there is all the misfortune, destruction of families and individuals, and rotting away of societies.
Again, there are some benefits to alcohol, but do those out weight the amount of pain and destruction it causes?
Salaam
Quote from: Rilum on March 22, 2018, 05:24:14 AM
In Khamr is great ithm, and ithm is according to 7:33 haram, simple as that.
peace,
imprecise (use context) the word is not حرم harrama rather the harmful and cruel actions, etc.
7:33 والاثم wal-ithma/and the detriment والبغى and the cruelty بغىر in other than الحق the right
Quote from: Noon waalqalami on March 23, 2018, 09:09:59 AM
peace,
imprecise (use context) the word is not حرم harrama rather the harmful and cruel actions, etc.
7:33 والاثم wal-ithma/and the detriment والبغى and the cruelty بغىر in other than الحق the right
Peace, all intoxicants should be avoided that is
all drugs, booze, etc., the tricky part is that those very same things have
medicinal benefits but recreationally they should be avoided.
Quote from: hawk99 on March 23, 2018, 01:28:11 PM
Peace Noon waalqalami, all intoxicants should be avoided that is
all drugs, booze, etc., the tricky part is that those very same things have
medicinal benefits but recreationally they should be avoided.
Those things you are speaking about brother Hawk99 is mostly modern day chemical substance which are 100% dangerous.
Quote from: The Sardar on March 23, 2018, 01:29:50 PM
Those things you are speaking about brother Hawk99 is mostly modern day chemical substance which are 100% dangerous.
@
The Sardar, I agree with you by and large, but many have benefited
from them and many have been used as intoxicants! Opioids is one example.
:peace:
Quote from: hawk99 on March 23, 2018, 01:35:57 PM
@ The Sardar, I agree with you by and large, but many have benefited
from them and many have been used as intoxicants! Opioids is one example.
:peace:
It depends on what benefit and what side effects as well.
Quote from: The Sardar on March 23, 2018, 01:42:34 PM
It depends on what benefit and what side effects as well.
True, alcohol was used as an anesthetic, marijuana is another intoxicant
that can have medicinal benefits. Both should be avoided.
:peace:
Quote from: hawk99 on March 23, 2018, 02:35:23 PM
True, alcohol was used as an anesthetic, marijuana is another intoxicant
that can have medicinal benefits. Both should be avoided.
:peace:
If i am going to use cannabis as medicine then i am going use it as a MEDICINE. Never as a smoking cigar, that's a intoxicant.
Salam,
Alcohol and gambling are not sinful, but in them is much sin.
Here's an example - huge difference between these:
-Y is sinful
-In X is sin
2:219 They ask you about alcohol and gambling. Say: ?In them is much
sin, and a benefit for the people; but their sin is greater than their
benefit.? And they ask you how much they are to give, say: ?The
excess.? It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you
may think.
I meant the ithm purpose of khamr not if you use it for medicine or something beneficial
(7:33:3)
ḥarrama
(had) forbidden
The main point is Allah says we should avoid it,
What does Allah say about MERELY approaching His limits?
Were not our parents admonished from approaching the tree?
They transgressed all bounds by mere approach to it, and look where we are now.
Don't follow their examples.
Quote from: HP_TECH on March 24, 2018, 01:18:57 AM
The main point is Allah says we should avoid it,
What does Allah say about MERELY approaching His limits?
Were not our parents admonished from approaching the tree?
They transgressed all bounds by mere approach to it, and look where we are now.
Don't follow their examples.
On that i agree with you brother HP_TECH but remember while there is great harm on these substences there is also benefits from them as well. That's why Allah (SWTAY) told the prophet to says this:
Quote from: The Sardar on March 23, 2018, 12:53:27 AM
2:219 يسلونك عن الخمر والميسر قل فيهما اثم كبير ومنفع للناس واثمهما اكبر من نفعهما ويسلونك ماذا ينفقون قل العفو كذلك يبين الله لكم الءايت لعلكم تتفكرون
Yas-aloonaka AAani alkhamri waalmaysiriqul feehima ithmun kabeerun wamanafiAAu lilnnasiwa-ithmuhuma akbaru min nafAAihima wayas-aloonaka mathayunfiqoona quli alAAafwa kathalika yubayyinu Allahulakumu al-ayati laAAallakum tatafakkaroona
They ask you about alcohol and gambling. Say: "In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say: "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
I think that the benefit does not lie on the desinfectant or any other properties of alcohol or any other substance which may have uses unrelated to the effects as intoxicants. That is obvious.
I think the benefits may lie in properties of the drugs, such as alcohol, as they are for the usual consumption. That would be the same with tools, they are very useful, but if you use them as weapongs, of course, it is different.
Alcohol, indeed has some nice properties, pleasure would be one, which is outweighted by the harming properties. And in fact what is the Qur'an telling us: does it not point out that we should beware of those nice properties because they are the enticement to approach them making us forget the danger. This again shows how wise is the Qur'an, instead of telling us merely keep away, it tells us that something may pull us from keeping away because they have good points. And in fact those good points are pointed out by those who would like the Qur'an to give a green light to alcohol, because if you drink it in moderation and all that... There are some people who ould like to be free to drink alcohol, in moderation of course, without remorse, something which can be attained if they manage to show that the Qur'an has nothing against it.
The Qur'an and also honesty and common sense, all of them in fact have a lot against alcohol and personality altering drugs, what they do not do is lie about about their hooking ability.
Salaam
And, by the way,
Concerning the translation of the aya quoted int he original post, I do not see in it dishonesty.
The reformist translation of the Qur'an is not free, in may view, of many questionable points, but, in my honest opinion, it has also good points and improvements over the average. In aya 24.33 in fact it is the only one I have seen that does not make one vomit.
Salaam
The THC in marijuana could not be separated from the plant until
recently, before that it had to be ingested or smoked. Other uses
of cannabis include paper, medicinal, textiles and more.
Alcohol was one of the first anesthetics. The coca leaf has been
used since prehistoric times, when chewed, acts as a mild
stimulant and suppresses hunger, thirst, pain, and fatigue in
regions of south America, but was misused by the west and
demonized in the form of cocaine. Allah is the creator of
plants, in them can be sin or benefit.
During our family gatherings we have contests, play games,
gamble for very small amounts (less than a dollar) just to
make it interesting.
:peace:
alcohol as well as cannabis should only be used for medical benefits, not misused for satisfaction. this is the sin which is mentioned in the qur'an in my opinion. i have some friends who became alcoholics or 24/7 pot smokers, it ruins lifes.
Quote from: Abaddon on January 28, 2019, 05:43:17 AM
alcohol as well as cannabis should only be used for medical benefits, not misused for satisfaction. this is the sin which is mentioned in the qur'an in my opinion. i have some friends who became alcoholics or 24/7 pot smokers, it ruins lifes.
Slm Abaddon,
why do you compare alcohol with cannabis ??
how do you ruin your life with pot ?? the only thing i can imagine is laziness , and this can indeed ruin the life ...other then this , i see no danger at all .... there is even no overdose... overdose of thc means sleeping like a rock ;)
Slm brother!
of course cannabis is something completely different, but still smoke shouldnt be in our lungs. there are different ways to consume cannabis. and i speak of organic cannabis, not that gmo haze. cannabis oil is the best way to consume it. but you will need a lot of herbs to extract the essence. its extremely healthy.
laziness is a sin though :D and you need to be awake in the morning for the salah.
Quote from: Abaddon on January 28, 2019, 06:35:13 AM
Slm brother!
of course cannabis is something completely different, but still smoke shouldnt be in our lungs. there are different ways to consume cannabis. and i speak of organic cannabis, not that gmo haze. cannabis oil is the best way to consume it. but you will need a lot of herbs to extract the essence. its extremely healthy.
laziness is a sin though :D and you need to be awake in the morning for the salah.
Aslm,
say...i am working during the day, i do my salah on time ... i am on gym to keep my health ok... but i am consuming cannabis pure for satisfaction , is it still prohibit ???
Quoteof course cannabis is something completely different, but still smoke shouldnt be in our lungs
so eating it is not prohibit ??
indeed i know the power of cannabis oil ( especially with thc) , yet a lot of countries saying this oil is illegal drugs.... why is an healthy oil illegal....
it is illegal because it is a pharma industry killer. cancer is a joke desease if treated with cannabis. majority of cancer patients die because of the chemotherapy. we are living in an one eyed world, the elite only cares about population control and world domination under a religion called scientism. we are indeed living in a scientific dictatorship which was described in the sci-fi novel brave new world from aldous huxley who is from the royal society, so his novel was based on the twisted minds of the royals aka "elite" or just degenerate scumbags. the elite itself consumes a drug called adrenochrome which is extracted from children while they are scared nearly to death and sacrificed. they are addicted to it. if you give the hadith literature any credibility, dajjal is here since the 20th century, the one eyed shepherd who is also mentioned in the bible.
so if cannabis helps you to calm down in this fucked up reality, do it. but to do dhikr is better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WvQUp9bpjc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WvQUp9bpjc)
I'm also against heavy alcohol consumption for no real reason; however, I still think it can be enjoyed with limits and respect once in a while. I respect the Quran and what it teaches, but when you have a gathering or party full of different cultures and beliefs, it's ok to have a pitcher or cocktail for them to enjoy, even if, as a Muslim, you don't. I always have Margaritas and Daiquiris available when we throw gatherings, and you might find the recipes from https://www.lolacovington.com/top-10-most-popular-cocktails/ useful like I did.
peace,
2:219 ىسلونك asked they you (sing.) عن about الخمر l-khamri/the inebriant والمىسر wal-maysiri/and the wager (gambling) قل say فىهما in them dual اثم ithmun/detriment كبىر great ومنفع and benefit للناس for the people واثمهما wa-ithmuhuma/and detriment them dual اكبر greater من from نفعهما benefit them dual ...
5:90-91 ىاىها O you الذىن the ones امنوا believes ye of انما solely الخمر l-khamru/the inebriant والمىسر wal-maysiru/and the wager والانصاب and the monuments (altars for sacrifice) والازلم and the arrows رجس filthiness من from عمل work الشىطن the devil فاجتنبوه fa-ijtanibuhu/so avoids ye him لعلكم perhaps you تفلحون succeeding انما solely ىرىد intended الشىطن the devil ان that ىوقع cause بىنكم between you العداوه the hostility والبغضا and the animosity فى with الخمر l-khamri/the inebriant والمىسر and the wager وىصدكم and hinder you عن about ذكر remembrance الله the god وعن and about الصلوه l-salati/the connection فهل so can انتم is/are you منتهون who ceasing?
7:33 قل say انما solely حرم harrama/prohibit ربى lord mine
1. الفوحش the immoralities ما what ظهر apparent منها from it وما and what بطن unaware
2. والاثم wal-ithma/and the detriment والبغى and the cruelty بغىر in other than الحق the right
3. وان and that تشركوا thou associate ye of بالله with the god ما what لم not ىنزل descended به in it سلطنا authority of
4. وان and that تقولوا thou say ye of على about الله the god ما what لا not تعلمون thou knowing
53:32 الذىن the ones ىجتنبون avoiding كبىر greater الاثم l-ithmi/the detriment والفوحش and the immoralities الا except اللمم the small faults ان indeed ربك lord your واسع extensive المغفره the forgiveness ...
ACCORDING TO THE QURAN , ALCOHOL IS NOT HARAM, IT IS "CONDITIONAL HALAL"
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610016.0
Different cultures, religions and individuals have their own perspectives on alcohol consumption, some of them consider it as a sin.