salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...

[Wakas]

I recommend re-reading.

From: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm

Clearly, according to the dictionaries, akhw has a much wider meaning. In fact, 'the reading' itself confirms this understanding [2:220, 3:103, 7:65, 7:73, 7:85, 11:50, 11:61, 15:47, 17:27, 26:106, 26:124, 26:142, 26:161, 27:45, 33:5, 46:21, 49:10, 58:22]

And last but by no means least, nowhere in 'the reading' does it state fight those who break their "oath of Islam", i.e. those who become disbelievers after accepting Islam. In fact, people are free to believe then disbelieve if they wish [4:137].

The wording of this verse strongly implies that they (polytheists/transgressors) are not considered to be anything other than polytheists/transgressors: "...and THEY assail in YOUR obligation/system (deen)...". This clearly shows they are being discussed as separate groups and it was NEVER considered their "deen".

Cross reference with 8:39
"And fight them all until there is no more oppression, and so that the entire deen is God's..."

The obvious question: what is deen? Since we know someone can assail (i.e. cause damage) in it, and just as someone can live according to it (see 12:76), what is the obvious, and perhaps only answer? Is it a religion/system requiring its followers to all be of the same belief/faith? Only those of the same belief/faith can live in a deen? (disproven by the story of Joseph). Or is it simply a system, an obligation, that which is due, a requital, a power-relation, a real-world structure / way of life.... that anyone can live in, as long as they accept and therefore abide by the deen of that land/community? Once this is understood, we can see why AQ uses the generic term akhw, incorrectly translated as "brother", as proven by AQ. From Lane's Lexicon: "When it does not relate to birth, it means conformity/similarity and combination/agreement or unison in action.".

If there was no 'then they are brothers in your system' and no changing of 'the system' to 'your system' I would totally agree with you in your understanding.

Please re-read the article several times, examining all concepts/words.

[Wakas]

you are right, salat of polytheists is more prayer-like salat as its clear from 8:35.

Clear from 8:35? Nonsense.

and I guess quran doesn't confirm their prayer-like salat.

Yes, when one has no evidence, guesswork is all they have.

[jaythikay99]

Clear from 8:35? Nonsense.

Yes, when one has no evidence, guesswork is all they have.

yes their prayer-like salat doesn't make any sense. and we have no other evidence except 8:35

[progressive1993]

you are right, salat of polytheists is more prayer-like salat as its clear from 8:35. and I guess quran doesn't confirm their prayer-like salat.

 

I said that it referred to them holding the salat (ie. holding the bond and "praying", if you understand that better, as opposed to making an oath.) Remember that salat = prayer

[Jack]

If there was no 'then they are brothers in your system' and no changing of 'the system' to 'your system' I would totally agree with you in your understanding. The meaning of 'bond', 'bonding', etc. for salat and its derivatives is applicable for all/nearly all verses in the reading/quran, IMO.

"Brothers" has been used for the disbelievers/truth concealers, as well, If you research akhwa. Just off the top of my head: 3:156

.

Edip-Layth - End Note 3 (8:35)
"The Quran informs us that the practices of Islam were initially revealed to Abraham. Abraham and his followers were observing the sala prayer (21:73). Meccan polytheists never accepted that they were polytheists (6:23,148; 16:35). Since they believed in the intercession of some holy people, and since they falsely attributed numerous prohibitions and rules to God, the Quran considered them polytheists..."

What's your evidence for: "The quran informs us that the practices of islam were initially revealed to abraham,"

Which deen was Noah following? Abraham came from Noah's group: 37:83 .

How many deens are we to follow? Hint: 3-19.

The deen/Islam has always been the same - 42:13.





Wakas, do you think 33:10-25 is also about the same events? I'm still studying it, so not sure either way. But it seems that way.

Or is it simply a system, an obligation, that which is due, a requital, a power-relation, a real-world structure / way of life.... that anyone can live in, as long as they accept and therefore abide by the deen of that land/community?".

 Chapter 107 is sufficient, imo. 

[progressive1993]

"Brothers" has been used for the disbelievers/truth concealers, as well, If you research akhwa. Just off the top of my head: 3:156

Your're right, but...

3:156 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola takoonoo kaallatheena kafaroo waqalooli-ikhwanihim itha daraboo fee al-ardiaw kanoo ghuzzan law kanoo AAindana mamatoo wama qutiloo liyajAAala Allahu thalikahasratan fee quloobihim waAllahu yuhyeewayumeetu waAllahu bima taAAmaloona baseerun

...there is no 'deen' here (ie. it doesnt say 'brothers in your deen').


What's your evidence for: "The quran informs us that the practices of islam were initially revealed to abraham,"

Which deen was Noah following? Abraham came from Noah's group: 37:83 .

That doesnt mean that the rites/practices (like hajj, for example) didnt start with Abraham.

2:125 We have made the sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. Utilize the place of Abraham to reach out. We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael, "You shall purify My sanctuary for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for those who humble themselves and make obeisance."

2:126 Abraham said, "My Lord, make this town secure, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever acknowledges God and the Last day." He said, "As for he who does not appreciate, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the fire, what a miserable destiny!"

2:127 As Abraham raised the foundations for the sanctuary with Ishmael, "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."

2:128 "Our Lord, and let us peacefully surrender to You and from our progeny a nation peacefully surrendering to You, and show us our rites and forgive us; You are the Most Forgiving, the Compassionate."

2:129 "Our Lord, and send amongst them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your signs and teach them the book and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise."

2:130 Who would abandon the creed of Abraham except one who fools himself? We have selected him in this world, and in the Hereafter, he is of the reformers.


21:73 We made them leaders who guide by Our command, and We inspired them to do good work and hold the bond and contribute towards betterment, and they were in service to Us.


3:96 The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.

The deen/Islam has always been the same - 42:13.

Just because one is submitting to God doesnt mean that they have rites/practices.

5:48 We have sent down to you the book with truth, authenticating what is present of the book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, a structure. Had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you, so advance the good deeds. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.

[Wakas]

peace Jack,

Nice find with 3:156. There is similar with 33:18.

33:10-25 doesn't seem to be related to 8:30-40 and/or 9:1-19, as it is about the hypocrites fighting along with the "believers" against others, not of polytheists and a treaty with them to live in peace, then attacking them etc.

Re: 107
Yes, what deen is, is rather obvious. A common problem is some people look at Arabic words and think they have a magical/special religious-orientated meaning, e.g. "salat", "zakat", "akhw", "mulsim", "mumin", "kafir", "deen", "hajj", "malaika", "shaytan" etc...... when the fact is, the religious-ification of islam, al quran, its words/concepts came later. This can be seen by a simple study of AQ itself and how it uses these words.

[Jack]

Peace,

Your're right, but...

3:156 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola takoonoo kaallatheena kafaroo waqalooli-ikhwanihim itha daraboo fee al-ardiaw kanoo ghuzzan law kanoo AAindana mamatoo wama qutiloo liyajAAala Allahu thalikahasratan fee quloobihim waAllahu yuhyeewayumeetu waAllahu bima taAAmaloona baseerun

...there is no 'deen' here (ie. it doesnt say 'brothers in your deen').

To understand brothers in your deen, you have to understand what 'brother' really means.

That doesnt mean that the rites/practices (like hajj, for example) didnt start with Abraham.

That in itself is not evidence. If indeed all the messengers are told the same thing (41:43), how is Abraham told something different from Noah? Especially because he sprung from Noah's company. Noah also had a sanctuary/house - 71:28. 33:33 and 10:87 give a good picture of the house.



Re: 3-96

7-143:

...When he awoke, he said: "Glory be to You, I repent to You and I am the first of those who believe."

Were there no believers before Moses?

Just because one is submitting to God doesnt mean that they have rites/practices.

Why must "rites" be part of one's deen? What's the evidence for this view?

-There is only one system- islam -  a common noun

-All the messengers followed the same system

-Al quran contrasts those who deny the system with shrik, e.g. 9:33, 16:52 and 29:65, as we segue back to chapter 9.


How do "jews" make a mockery of the system? 4:46

[Jack]

Peace Wakas,

33:10-25 doesn't seem to be related to 8:30-40 and/or 9:1-19, as it is about the hypocrites fighting along with the "believers" against others, not of polytheists and a treaty with them to live in peace, then attacking them etc.

This is true for the most part. I think it's showing 'the other side' - the believers and among them hypocrites..

It mentions allatheen kufaroo/those who concealed/rejected in 33:25. I am basing it on 33:25. The God sparing the believers any fighting = the treaty.

Yes, what deen is, is rather obvious. A common problem is some people look at Arabic words and think they have a magical/special religious-orientated meaning, e.g. "salat", "zakat", "akhw", "mulsim", "mumin", "kafir", "deen", "hajj", "malaika", "shaytan" etc...... when the fact is, the religious-ification of islam, al quran, its words/concepts came later. This can be seen by a simple study of AQ itself and how it uses these words.

Exactly.
It's difficult for some (consciously or subconsciously) to study AQ with no preconceptions. When I read it, I pretend I know nothing of a particular subject I am studying, so that new ideas might hit me.

[abdalquran]

I would also try to contrast between 'deen' and 'iman'. Salat is performed by our 'brothers in deen' but never our 'brothers in iman'. There must be a reason for this.

[abdalquran]

   Yes it means " The Prayers." And the prayers were ordained on the belivers, not the non believers. God is seeking those believers being led by the Spirit to establish alssalawaati. Thus, you caint expect the unbelievers to keep the prayers.  And asalat is used in 5/106 to make it clear to you. 

Here's a breakdown of 5/106 for your convenience:
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo – O you who BELIEVE. (so who is the audience here? BELIEVERS)
shahadatu bayniKUM itha hadara ahadaKUMU almawtu heena alwasiyyati – take witnsseses between YOU when one of YOU is close to death during the time of drawing up the will (so once again, the YOU here refers to who? Believers)
thawa AAadlin minKUM - 2 posessors of justice from YOU. (and yet again, we have the YOU who are the BELIEVERS)
aw akharani min ghayriKUM – or 2 others from OTHER than YOU (who are other than BELIEVERS? Non-believers)
in antum darabtum fee al-ardi – if you are travelling through the earth
faasabatKUM museebatu almawti – and death befalls you.
tahbisoonahuma min baAAdi alssalati – detain them both after AS-SALAT

It can’t get clearer than this. As-salat is definitely not the prayers.

[herbman]

Salam, Peace,

just my 2 cents, for me salat is a "social system" as per surat 107.
So aqimu assalat would mean uphold the social system e.g. social solidarity.

regards