Author Topic: Evolution and Creation: Clash or One Reality  (Read 712 times)

salman378

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Evolution and Creation: Clash or One Reality
« on: November 19, 2022, 02:26:15 PM »
I expect free-minds.org to show this post as nothing said in this post is objectionable but an investigation into the matter of Evolution and Quran. I also expect that free-minds.org will welcome such posts rather than censor it based on unreasonable or sectarian agendas which I think are not purpose of the website in the first place. Rather I consider free-minds the only place where people can candidly ask difficult questions.

This post is huge. So unless you're smart enough to talk about this topic, you should look elsewhere as I am doing some digging in this post.

We all know that both Science (God's action) and Scripture (God's words) should be consistent with one another. Otherwise why call a Hindu or Christian misguided if you are to just follow what everyone says without proof. You'll then simply be in Islam because you were born in it. This is like saying 'I'm Muslim' only because my parents told me it is true. Neither scientific truth nor religious truth can come out of such an attitude.

Seeing this I did some digging deep in the topic of Creation of Man in Quran and wanted to see if the account of Evolution matches with it or not. I found some verses in Quran that do point towards Evolution, but there are few that deny it uncontested.

So let's roll our sleeves and see what evidences of Evolution we can find in Quran.

Most Convincing Ones:

71:17 And caused you to grow from Earth like a Plant.

11:61 Produced you from Earth and settled you therein.

29:20 Travel the Earth and see how the creation began.

2:21 O humanity, worship your Lord who created you and those before you, so that you may become mindful (of Him). (God is addressing the whole of humanity, not just people present there, that there were those who were before them)

4:133 If He wills, He can do away with you, O mankind, and bring others. For Allah has power to do that. (Again, whole of mankind is addressed)

3:33 Indeed, Allah has chosen Adam and Noah and family of Ibrahim and family of Imran over the Worlds. (Adam was chosen among whom?)

3:34 Descendants some of them from others... (These two verses show that Adam too had descendants unlike the popular belief that Adam was the first human)

32:7 The One Who created everything good and He began the creation of human out of clay. (The Arabic word 'Bada' refers to beginning creation out of clay. Beginning something means beginning step by step. This could refer to Clay Polymerization theory of Abiogenesis where clay were the best medium for protection of cell's membranes of primitive single-celled organisms 3.5 to 3.8 billion years ago.)

6:2 He is the One who created you from clay, then decreed a term. And a term specified with Him, yet you doubt. ('You' could refer to whole of life and not just humans. As there is a mention of a term or time period is mentioned in this verse. Single-celled organisms that were first formed on Earth 3.5 to 3.8 billion years ago took a time period to reach to us i.e. Homo Sapiens)

15:26 And when your Lord said to the angels, “I am creating a human being from clay, made of decayed black mud. (When we look at the description of the type of clay often mentioned in Quran we get the idea of decayed or gluey mud or clay, this is very close the the scientific account of abiogenesis of clay polymerization because it proposes that in early geological history clay hydrogel provided a confinement function for biomolecules and biochemical reactions. In ancient seawater, clay forms a hydrogel - a mass of microscopic spaces capable of soaking up liquids like a sponge. Over billions of years, chemicals confined in those spaces could have carried out the complex reactions that formed proteins, DNA and eventually all the machinery that makes a living cell work. Clay hydrogels could have confined and protected those chemical processes until the membrane that surrounds living cells developed)
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131105132027.htm

Vague Ones:

77:16-17 Did we not destroy the ancients, then follow them up with the later ones?

32:9 Then He perfected him and breathed into him from His spirit...

76:28 We created them and strengthened their form and when we will, we can change their likeness with a change. (This verse seems to talk about future Evolution of humans)

6:133 ...If He wills, He can do away with you and give succession after you to whomever He wills, just as He initiated you from the descendants of other people.

76:1 Has there not come upon human a period of time when he was nothing to be mentioned? (This long period cannot be 9 to 10 months of human in womb of her mother but previous human form that didn't read, write or use intellect as it's a long period ago we Homo Genus were like that)

71:14 And indeed, He created you in diverse stages.

82:7 Who created you, fashioned you, and perfected your design,

7:11 Surely We created you, then shaped you, then said to the angels, “Prostrate before Adam,”...

56:61 from replacing you with others like you, and creating you (afresh) in that (form) which you do not know.

Problematic Ones:

4:1 O Mankind! Be mindful of your Lord, who created you from a single self and created from it its mate, and from them spread many men and women... ('Nafs' doesn't mean soul but self.)

Now this is where the problem comes. This 'Nafs' or self can't be single-celled organism. Because God said He created from it its mate and dispersed with it many "men and women", the arabic words used are 'Rajal' and 'Nisa'. So my question to free thinkers here is, can 'men and women' in this verse be also translated as 'males and females' without being intellectually dishonest? If yes, and if the style of arabic in this verse permits this, then evolutionary theory will be proven from Quran without doubt otherwise we still will have to believe it is talking about Hawa created from Adam's rib story as in the Hadiths and in the Bible.

Another verse of this type is the following:

7:189 He is the One Who created you from a single self, then from it made its mate so he may find comfort in her...

The story in the above verse is talking about this being/self to have asked God for a good child to be born to his wife and thereby did 'Shirk' once God granted him that. This too can't be talking about single-celled organism.

21:35 Every single 'Nafs' will taste death...

We know that 'Nafs' will taste death and 'Nafs' can be animal, plant or human, as all can die. There is no Adam specifically mentioned in these verses. But the problem comes when the above two verses are researched they clearly say that it is talking about Adam and Eve instead of single celled organism 3.5 to 3.8 billion years ago to have come to us after evolution.

So I am really confused now, in some places God is saying He created us like plants, produced us from Earth, produced us in stages, took time to create us etc. then He is also saying that He created the single Nafs's mate from itself and then produced men and women. Which account is true? How do we know?

If anyone is familiar with this problem or want to shed light or give his two cents, I would highly regard and love him for his opinion. Thank you so much for listening to me.

If you're someone who just denies the Evolution, then please address these issues before explaining me how wrong am I to believe in Evolution.

Saying Evolution is just a theory is very naïve, theory of Gravity, theory of Plate Tectonics, theory Atom and theory of Big Bang are also theories. Theory in science is falsifiable (it's not the same as the English word 'theory') and if you believe you can disprove it, go write a scientific white paper that discredits this 150 year old theory once and for all, as it is falsifiable (for 150 years no one did). Simply find a fossil of giant humans or of creatures that do not match with fossil records or find fossils that are older of newer species or find something wrong with gene theory. The scientists do not argue over whether evolution is correct or not, they just debate on details of it, no one rejects the whole structure of the theory.

If Evolution is not true then how do you explain fossils of hominids, hominins and human-like apes not to mention fossils of variety of species of animal kingdom we find on Earth. Did devil put all over the Earth those fossils to confuse us? No! Neither we find human fossils along with fossils that are of older genus and species in layers of Earth. Even the latest layers of Earth we find new fossils and in old ones we find the older fossils of older species. All this you can study on your own. We can't just put our head in the sand and say this is all stupid. No Sir! Being a Muslim, we have to be true to ourselves and others no matter what popular opinion there is among Muslims.

Forget about fossils, we now even have Genes to look at. We have even mapped genome of Neanderthals. We have mapped Homo Sapiens genome through which we know that we all evolved in Africa. See this > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sC1gxFvCqQ Even babies born with vestigial tail, goosebumps, wisdom teeth, appendix, blind spots, vestigial muscles, palmer reflex, all point to evolution as we have these remnants that have no good function left for us now. See this > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFxu7NEoKC8

All such arguments that if Evolution is true then why there are still Monkeys roaming around and we Human are highly dignified to have evolved from Monkeys etc. The problem with all these arguments is that Truth is always bitter, whether you still believe Earth is at the center of the Solar System or Earth is flat and feel good about it. Truth is not about feeling good. Feeling good and truth are two separate things. There are still Monkeys around because there is not need for their Evolution, Evolution doesn't say that all species will eventually always Evolve whether there is a need for them to or not, they only Evolve when there is need, like we did, 80 million years ago as primates and then 1.5 million years being Upright Man, 750,000 years ago as Stone Tool Makers and 200,000 years ago as Homo Sapiens as we are today.

As far as the argument of Human dignity is concerned, Our Prophet's uncle were Abu Lahab and Abu Jahal. This doesn't mean that linage had any influence on our Prophet's honesty and piousness. Who told you that your association with a group of people based on kinship or your origin as a species will define who you will become? If lets say your father is a thief, being born of him will make you a thief as well? Even if we are born of a Monkey (which is not true, we were born from a common ancestor of Humans and Chimpanzees that was neither Human nor Chimpanzee) but for the sake of argument, lets just say that, does it mean that one night we slept and woke up in morning and realized that we're not a monkey anymore?

Evolution happens in millions of years of time period, all the generations before you were exactly like you, this is how gradual it is. This is so gradual that even saying a cat can't become a dog is moot. Even species that turn to other species by turning to a new branch in evolutionary tree is so gradual and there are so many intermediatory forms in between that saying a species can't turn to another species is joke in evolutionary time scales of millions of years. You don't see those intermediaries in between because their fossil records show that 95% of all animals that ever lived have died. Yes! We, along with all animals and plants are the 5% leftovers (successful ones) who survived.

Thank you!

jkhan

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Re: Evolution and Creation: Clash or One Reality
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2022, 07:55:29 PM »
I expect free-minds.org to show this post as nothing said in this post is objectionable but an investigation into the matter of Evolution and Quran. I also expect that free-minds.org will welcome such posts rather than censor it based on unreasonable or sectarian agendas which I think are not purpose of the website in the first place. Rather I consider free-minds the only place where people can candidly ask difficult questions.

This post is huge. So unless you're smart enough to talk about this topic, you should look elsewhere as I am doing some digging in this post.

We all know that both Science (God's action) and Scripture (God's words) should be consistent with one another. Otherwise why call a Hindu or Christian misguided if you are to just follow what everyone says without proof. You'll then simply be in Islam because you were born in it. This is like saying 'I'm Muslim' only because my parents told me it is true. Neither scientific truth nor religious truth can come out of such an attitude.

Seeing this I did some digging deep in the topic of Creation of Man in Quran and wanted to see if the account of Evolution matches with it or not. I found some verses in Quran that do point towards Evolution, but there are few that deny it uncontested.

So let's roll our sleeves and see what evidences of Evolution we can find in Quran.

Most Convincing Ones:

71:17 And caused you to grow from Earth like a Plant.

11:61 Produced you from Earth and settled you therein.

29:20 Travel the Earth and see how the creation began.

2:21 O humanity, worship your Lord who created you and those before you, so that you may become mindful (of Him). (God is addressing the whole of humanity, not just people present there, that there were those who were before them)

4:133 If He wills, He can do away with you, O mankind, and bring others. For Allah has power to do that. (Again, whole of mankind is addressed)

3:33 Indeed, Allah has chosen Adam and Noah and family of Ibrahim and family of Imran over the Worlds. (Adam was chosen among whom?)

3:34 Descendants some of them from others... (These two verses show that Adam too had descendants unlike the popular belief that Adam was the first human)

32:7 The One Who created everything good and He began the creation of human out of clay. (The Arabic word 'Bada' refers to beginning creation out of clay. Beginning something means beginning step by step. This could refer to Clay Polymerization theory of Abiogenesis where clay were the best medium for protection of cell's membranes of primitive single-celled organisms 3.5 to 3.8 billion years ago.)

6:2 He is the One who created you from clay, then decreed a term. And a term specified with Him, yet you doubt. ('You' could refer to whole of life and not just humans. As there is a mention of a term or time period is mentioned in this verse. Single-celled organisms that were first formed on Earth 3.5 to 3.8 billion years ago took a time period to reach to us i.e. Homo Sapiens)

15:26 And when your Lord said to the angels, “I am creating a human being from clay, made of decayed black mud. (When we look at the description of the type of clay often mentioned in Quran we get the idea of decayed or gluey mud or clay, this is very close the the scientific account of abiogenesis of clay polymerization because it proposes that in early geological history clay hydrogel provided a confinement function for biomolecules and biochemical reactions. In ancient seawater, clay forms a hydrogel - a mass of microscopic spaces capable of soaking up liquids like a sponge. Over billions of years, chemicals confined in those spaces could have carried out the complex reactions that formed proteins, DNA and eventually all the machinery that makes a living cell work. Clay hydrogels could have confined and protected those chemical processes until the membrane that surrounds living cells developed)
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131105132027.htm

Vague Ones:

77:16-17 Did we not destroy the ancients, then follow them up with the later ones?

32:9 Then He perfected him and breathed into him from His spirit...

76:28 We created them and strengthened their form and when we will, we can change their likeness with a change. (This verse seems to talk about future Evolution of humans)

6:133 ...If He wills, He can do away with you and give succession after you to whomever He wills, just as He initiated you from the descendants of other people.

76:1 Has there not come upon human a period of time when he was nothing to be mentioned? (This long period cannot be 9 to 10 months of human in womb of her mother but previous human form that didn't read, write or use intellect as it's a long period ago we Homo Genus were like that)

71:14 And indeed, He created you in diverse stages.

82:7 Who created you, fashioned you, and perfected your design,

7:11 Surely We created you, then shaped you, then said to the angels, “Prostrate before Adam,”...

56:61 from replacing you with others like you, and creating you (afresh) in that (form) which you do not know.

Problematic Ones:

4:1 O Mankind! Be mindful of your Lord, who created you from a single self and created from it its mate, and from them spread many men and women... ('Nafs' doesn't mean soul but self.)

Now this is where the problem comes. This 'Nafs' or self can't be single-celled organism. Because God said He created from it its mate and dispersed with it many "men and women", the arabic words used are 'Rajal' and 'Nisa'. So my question to free thinkers here is, can 'men and women' in this verse be also translated as 'males and females' without being intellectually dishonest? If yes, and if the style of arabic in this verse permits this, then evolutionary theory will be proven from Quran without doubt otherwise we still will have to believe it is talking about Hawa created from Adam's rib story as in the Hadiths and in the Bible.

Another verse of this type is the following:

7:189 He is the One Who created you from a single self, then from it made its mate so he may find comfort in her...

The story in the above verse is talking about this being/self to have asked God for a good child to be born to his wife and thereby did 'Shirk' once God granted him that. This too can't be talking about single-celled organism.

21:35 Every single 'Nafs' will taste death...

We know that 'Nafs' will taste death and 'Nafs' can be animal, plant or human, as all can die. There is no Adam specifically mentioned in these verses. But the problem comes when the above two verses are researched they clearly say that it is talking about Adam and Eve instead of single celled organism 3.5 to 3.8 billion years ago to have come to us after evolution.

So I am really confused now, in some places God is saying He created us like plants, produced us from Earth, produced us in stages, took time to create us etc. then He is also saying that He created the single Nafs's mate from itself and then produced men and women. Which account is true? How do we know?

If anyone is familiar with this problem or want to shed light or give his two cents, I would highly regard and love him for his opinion. Thank you so much for listening to me.

If you're someone who just denies the Evolution, then please address these issues before explaining me how wrong am I to believe in Evolution.

Saying Evolution is just a theory is very naïve, theory of Gravity, theory of Plate Tectonics, theory Atom and theory of Big Bang are also theories. Theory in science is falsifiable (it's not the same as the English word 'theory') and if you believe you can disprove it, go write a scientific white paper that discredits this 150 year old theory once and for all, as it is falsifiable (for 150 years no one did). Simply find a fossil of giant humans or of creatures that do not match with fossil records or find fossils that are older of newer species or find something wrong with gene theory. The scientists do not argue over whether evolution is correct or not, they just debate on details of it, no one rejects the whole structure of the theory.

If Evolution is not true then how do you explain fossils of hominids, hominins and human-like apes not to mention fossils of variety of species of animal kingdom we find on Earth. Did devil put all over the Earth those fossils to confuse us? No! Neither we find human fossils along with fossils that are of older genus and species in layers of Earth. Even the latest layers of Earth we find new fossils and in old ones we find the older fossils of older species. All this you can study on your own. We can't just put our head in the sand and say this is all stupid. No Sir! Being a Muslim, we have to be true to ourselves and others no matter what popular opinion there is among Muslims.

Forget about fossils, we now even have Genes to look at. We have even mapped genome of Neanderthals. We have mapped Homo Sapiens genome through which we know that we all evolved in Africa. See this > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sC1gxFvCqQ Even babies born with vestigial tail, goosebumps, wisdom teeth, appendix, blind spots, vestigial muscles, palmer reflex, all point to evolution as we have these remnants that have no good function left for us now. See this > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFxu7NEoKC8

All such arguments that if Evolution is true then why there are still Monkeys roaming around and we Human are highly dignified to have evolved from Monkeys etc. The problem with all these arguments is that Truth is always bitter, whether you still believe Earth is at the center of the Solar System or Earth is flat and feel good about it. Truth is not about feeling good. Feeling good and truth are two separate things. There are still Monkeys around because there is not need for their Evolution, Evolution doesn't say that all species will eventually always Evolve whether there is a need for them to or not, they only Evolve when there is need, like we did, 80 million years ago as primates and then 1.5 million years being Upright Man, 750,000 years ago as Stone Tool Makers and 200,000 years ago as Homo Sapiens as we are today.

As far as the argument of Human dignity is concerned, Our Prophet's uncle were Abu Lahab and Abu Jahal. This doesn't mean that linage had any influence on our Prophet's honesty and piousness. Who told you that your association with a group of people based on kinship or your origin as a species will define who you will become? If lets say your father is a thief, being born of him will make you a thief as well? Even if we are born of a Monkey (which is not true, we were born from a common ancestor of Humans and Chimpanzees that was neither Human nor Chimpanzee) but for the sake of argument, lets just say that, does it mean that one night we slept and woke up in morning and realized that we're not a monkey anymore?

Evolution happens in millions of years of time period, all the generations before you were exactly like you, this is how gradual it is. This is so gradual that even saying a cat can't become a dog is moot. Even species that turn to other species by turning to a new branch in evolutionary tree is so gradual and there are so many intermediatory forms in between that saying a species can't turn to another species is joke in evolutionary time scales of millions of years. You don't see those intermediaries in between because their fossil records show that 95% of all animals that ever lived have died. Yes! We, along with all animals and plants are the 5% leftovers (successful ones) who survived.

Thank you!

It is so clear by what you have written what side you prefer to sit...  Anyways you have not observed the nature and its perfection enough to claim it is evolution...  Observe nature with two gifted eyes and question from there...  For example take your wonderful perfect body and reflect the possibilities of evolution and creation...
I am not here dig deep coz  unfortunately I have lot of issues to address in life..

But ponder with nature a lot if you really want to figure out evolution and creation conundrum..

One practical example I leave you..
Ask all men and women not to marry or not to have sex...  And keep waiting whether any baby would get birth in this Earth. . That's evolution, If it doesn't happens....  If doesn't happen then guess who is behind all ehat exists...

Only deep reflection on every aspects of nature can reveal the truth behind this massive topic...

Well as they say #egg came first or hen?...  Well people have reflected from ancient time but separated into two groups.. Evolution and creation...

Thank you... If you really have time I have made a video on this if you search below my signature... God bless you all.
Let us die with guidance
https://youtube.com/@purposeofliving

salman378

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Re: Evolution and Creation: Clash or One Reality
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2022, 09:04:34 PM »
Thank you for your reply and using kind words. However, please note that Evolution is not a pipe dream of someone who had his dinner too late. It's a 150 year old theory with mountains of evidences in paleontology, genetics, biology, carbon dating, molecular biology, anatomy, geology and so many more disciplines of science. Imagine what would be the response of someone hearing that Evolution is not a reality who is doing researching on fighting new variants of corona virus. He'll not forgive us for saying anything against Evolution. Seeing nature doesn't prove anything. It is something for one person and totally different thing for another person.

It's not about taking sides, it's about seeing what is presented. Let's say Evolution is all bogus, I'm not a fan either. I want nothing to do with it too. But what I like is not necessarily truth. Truth is not what feels good. That's why it's called Truth is bitter. Truth is what is known universally through rigorous experiments, seeing fossil records and evidences in our gene records. Scientists are not fools who say certain things are the way they are, they have substantial science behind their claims. 150 years? 150 years and no counter to the basic structure of the theory? Even theory of plate tectonics is recent when compared. I can't believe that thousands of Scientists are just watching things go wrong and don't do a thing about it (they can easily refute whole of evolutionary model by writing a Scientific white paper.)

I can't believe in a God who gave me brain and then said don't use it. Neither I believe in a God who confuses people nor I believe in a God who had magnifying glass over ants like us and enjoying seeing us die. My God is rather one that has provided me with both Science and Scripture. I want both dunia and akhirah. My God is loving and provider of answers for struggler, not one who says just shut up. Whatever view of God we make for ourselves is true and our whole life and understanding of it is what makes our view of God. This is not about rejecting religion. Islam is not against Evolution. It's humans/mullahs/priests/theologians in between who play God and turn his words the way they want and confuse the masses like you and me.

It is high time for you and me to roll our sleeves and dig deep into the matter and see for ourselves what truth is. Quran says that most people in the world are misguided, why then would I fear people more than I fear God?  If we are to just believe whatever people say, then stop telling Hindus, Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Jains, Zoroaster that they are misguided as you and me, we both might as well be. Quran shouldn't shy away from toughest scrutiny of Science, History and Logic. God's action (Science) cannot contradict God's words (Scripture). They should be in harmony. It is your and my understanding of verses that need to change, not God's words. You can at least start by listening to both sides of the argument if accepting Evolution is such a painstaking thing for your belief. Let your belief solidify more by learning more. Let truth be like peeling of onion, where eventually your truth will lead you to more firm belief than just stop somewhere you can't make sense of things and say 'Okay, enough I ain't gonna look further'

Who's denying that God did it? Who created Earth > God! How was it created? Solar Nebula got coalesced and formed planets and our Sun. Who created Universe > God! How was it created? Big Bang. Who created us, Humans > God! How were we created? Evolution. I don't understand how mention of creator means we have to invoke magic and let go of all known natural processes in life? Didn't God say 'Use means to reach to God' in Quran? Even we have to use means to get something. Trying praying whole day for God to bring you a million dollars and see what happens. Your prayer is only answered if you also acquire a means (job, business).

Science doesn't work however you like. Killing all humans will not definitely land us a baby. Baby is biological and for it to be produced, a biological system must be in place for it to be born. That's why we humans make babies, not rocks and stones. Go read a book on Evolution, topic you hate so much to realize that it's simply not all that dark, gloomy and disbelieving to understand it. It won't land you to disbelieve. Your chicken and egg problem is also solved only through evolution because according to it your hen egg was first produced by a older generated of hen. We are part of the same gene pool. We have all evolved.

Look at the symmetry in your eyes, nostrils, ears, why do you have same symmetry as animals? And check out your bones in wrist (they are two: ulna and radius), why do the chimps, bats, ants, whales have same two bones in their wrists/fins? What did your white blood cells do in Heaven? Do we have bacteria and viruses in Heaven too? What purpose did your gut had in Heaven where you didn't need to defecate or go to bathroom? Or your penis which had nothing to do in Heaven when you didn't need kids. All bodily functions are Earthly. Because they can function only for Earthly needs.

BTW, what was this physical body of yours doing in Heaven? Shouldn't you be having yellow colored blood or bones made of steel or 3 eyes if you are different/unique creation separate from animal kingdom?

Thank you!

Nom de plume

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Re: Evolution and Creation: Clash or One Reality
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2022, 08:39:39 AM »
Most Convincing Ones:

71:17 And caused you to grow from Earth like a Plant.

11:61 Produced you from Earth and settled you therein.

too many topics in this post, not like a plant

spring up, sprouts as in proverb "who works blossoms"

3:37 wa-anbatahā nabātan
11:61 Salih's people did not evolve, use context

32:7 The One Who created everything good and He began the creation of human out of clay. (The Arabic word 'Bada' refers to beginning creation out of clay. Beginning something means beginning step by step. This could refer to Clay Polymerization theory of Abiogenesis where clay were the best medium for protection of cell's membranes of primitive single-celled organisms 3.5 to 3.8 billion years ago.)

still around not evolved https://ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/cyanointro.html

Cyanobacteria are aquatic and photosynthetic, that is, they live in the water, and can manufacture their own food. Because they are bacteria, they are quite small and usually unicellular, though they often grow in colonies large enough to see. They have the distinction of being the oldest known fossils, more than 3.5 billion years old, in fact! It may surprise you then to know that the cyanobacteria are still around; they are one of the largest and most important groups of bacteria on earth.

Problematic Ones:

4:1 O Mankind! Be mindful of your Lord, who created you from a single self and created from it its mate, and from them spread many men and women... ('Nafs' doesn't mean soul but self.)

Now this is where the problem comes. This 'Nafs' or self can't be single-celled organism. Because God said He created from it its mate and dispersed with it many "men and women", the arabic words used are 'Rajal' and 'Nisa'. So my question to free thinkers here is, can 'men and women' in this verse be also translated as 'males and females' without being intellectually dishonest? If yes, and if the style of arabic in this verse permits this, then evolutionary theory will be proven from Quran without doubt otherwise we still will have to believe it is talking about Hawa created from Adam's rib story as in the Hadiths and in the Bible.

6:151 and not thou slay ye of l-nafsa/the self (?)

the female was first

4:1 the one creation you from soul single (f) and creation from her (f) spouse hers (f)
and disperse from them "dual" rijalan/menfolk of much of wanisaan/and womenfolk

rijalan wanisaan can translate to males and females

4:176 and if be they of siblings rijalan/menfolk of wanisaan/and womenfolk (3+)
 falildhakari/so to the male similitude apportion l-unthayayni/the females two

Wakas

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Re: Evolution and Creation: Clash or One Reality
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2022, 10:13:36 AM »
https://misconceptions-about-islam.com/misconception.php?id=46

Misconception: The Quran rejects evolution
The Quran describes a sequence of events that could be incorporated within an evolutionary process, but with God as the initiator and sustainer, with mankind being given unique qualities at a point in time when ready. Some examples are shown below:
21:30 ...We made out of water every living thing...

11:61 ...He produced you from the earth/land...

76:1 Was there not a time when mankind was nothing to even be mentioned?
76:2 We have created mankind from a mixed exudate...

71:17 God made you grow from the earth as a growth/plant

23:12 And We have created man from an extract from clay.
23:13 Then We made him a drop in an established lodging.

71:14 "And indeed He created you in stages...

6:38 There is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are communities like you...

6:133 ...He raised you from the seed of another people.

22:5 ...We have created you from dust, then from an exudate/drop, then from a clinging substance, then from a fetus developed and undeveloped...

32:7 The One who perfected everything He created and He began the creation of man from clay.
32:8 Then He made his progeny from an extract of a humble liquid.
32:9 Then He evolved him, and blew into him from His spirit...

29:20 Say, "Roam the earth and observe how the creation was originated...

To conclude, it seems The Quran does not confirm nor rule out the evolutionary process.
It may be interesting to note that the basic theory of evolution can be found in early Muslim works and was not considered controversial. Perhaps the most well known example of this was in the work 'Al Muqaddimah' ('the introduction') by Ibn Khaldun (1377), written more than 400 years before Charles Darwin. Quote:

"One should then take a look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. The last stage of minerals is connected with the first stage of plants, such as herbs and seedless plants. The last stage of plants, such as palms and vines, is connected with the first stage of animals, such as snails and shellfish which have only the power of touch. The word 'connection' with regard to these created things means that the last stage of each group is fully prepared to become the first stage of the newest group.
The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man"


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

tutti_frutti

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Re: Evolution and Creation: Clash or One Reality
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2022, 12:42:49 PM »
salam - my take:

there is no “evolution” .. adam was created and shaped and then the angels were commanded to prostate to adam (7:11, note also in this verseThe God says  “created you and shaped you”)

where is the time for evolution to happen? adam lived in janna aaaafter the prostration was ordered to the angels .. and adam came down to earth aafter that .. so when wld evolution play out if adam was already shaped by The Lord before being in jannah or descending to earth

plus those whom scientists claim to be human/monkey ancestors were sabath breakers turned into abject/wierd monkeys (7:166 & 2:65)

reason why monekys (and pigs) similar to humans is because they were made from humans (5:60)


salman378

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Re: Evolution and Creation: Clash or One Reality
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2022, 03:19:36 PM »
too many topics in this post, not like a plant

spring up, sprouts as in proverb "who works blossoms"

3:37 wa-anbatahā nabātan
11:61 Salih's people did not evolve, use context

still around not evolved https://ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/cyanointro.html

Cyanobacteria are aquatic and photosynthetic, that is, they live in the water, and can manufacture their own food. Because they are bacteria, they are quite small and usually unicellular, though they often grow in colonies large enough to see. They have the distinction of being the oldest known fossils, more than 3.5 billion years old, in fact! It may surprise you then to know that the cyanobacteria are still around; they are one of the largest and most important groups of bacteria on earth.

6:151 and not thou slay ye of l-nafsa/the self (?)

the female was first

4:1 the one creation you from soul single (f) and creation from her (f) spouse hers (f)
and disperse from them "dual" rijalan/menfolk of much of wanisaan/and womenfolk

rijalan wanisaan can translate to males and females

4:176 and if be they of siblings rijalan/menfolk of wanisaan/and womenfolk (3+)
 falildhakari/so to the male similitude apportion l-unthayayni/the females two

>> spring up, sprouts as in proverb "who works blossoms"

Thank you! That helps dear!

>> 11:61 Salih's people did not evolve, use context

Lolz... Salih's people did not evolve my love. But that doesn't mean they can't be told a story of how Earth is responsible for their birth/evolution i.e. evolution of all Humans. Like for example, if I will tell you that you evolved from Earth as a species! Does that also mean that I am talking directly to you or people of 21st century who just came out of Earth yesterday?

This same type of Analogy is used by Noah when he was preaching to his disbelieving people in 71:14 where he said 'God created you in stages'... Every Prophet teaches disbelieving people about signs of God, it doesn't mean that he is talking about their time period or 24 hours before (lolz...)

>> Cynobacteria! Hah! Wow! That's my subject! You're in my court Sir! I am not a Biochemist for no reason. Yeah! I have a profession. Read more books than you on the subject. Believe me.

Why do Cynobacteria still exist today. Do you know why? Because Evolution doesn't say that all creatures always evolve. You are missing the whole point. Have you ever read a book on Evolution? You're not smarter than all the Scientists and Ph. Ds. or maybe you are in your own home... maybe...

Cynobacterias were formed 3.2 to 3.5 billion years before, after Earth cooled down, it is their oxygen that we are still breathing today. They are the successful ones. Why would a successful species evolve? To what advantage will it do it? I think you didn't even read my last post in which I made this clear that Evolution doesn't work according to your science... It works on what God planned it to be...

This is what I typed in my previous post:

"Evolution doesn't say that all species will eventually always Evolve whether there is a need for them to or not, they only Evolve when there is need, like we did, 80 million years ago as primates and then 1.5 million years being Upright Man, 750,000 years ago as Stone Tool Makers and 200,000 years ago as Homo Sapiens as we are today."

Evolution only happens when there is a need, a change in environment, climate, preferences, food chain challenges, drastic weather changes, mutations, cross breading among species etc. There are so many factors.

I can laugh at our special Muslim Science whole day. Look at how deep down in the abyss we are right now compared to Muslims of Golden Age when this type of conversation was a norm. BTW, don't get me wrong! I enjoy a lot as you are all my brothers. But understand that we lack understanding. To say we have something so cool under our sleeves and that all Scientists are donkeys is firing at our own feet.

>>the female was first

rijalan wanisaan can translate to males and females

Love you for this... So sweet my dear brother! Love you. I really wanted to know this. Are you arabic speaker?

salman378

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Re: Evolution and Creation: Clash or One Reality
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2022, 03:52:22 PM »
salam - my take:
salam tutti frutti... btw, i love that ice cream flavor.

Quote
there is no “evolution” .. adam was created and shaped and then the angels were commanded to prostate to adam (7:11, note also in this verseThe God says  “created you and shaped you”)

Yeah I want to live in a dream where this is true too. Sadly I live among scientists, fossils, genes, layers of Earth, carbon dating and lots of lots of evidences that Devil put in Earth. Scientists would not be happy about you calling them fools. Research of 150 years and my brother here tutti frutti understands everything better! Yeah!

Below I will tell you how Adam and (Hawa, Eve) were in Earth and not in Heaven. Angels come to Earth too btw. That's for another day!

Quote
where is the time for evolution to happen? adam lived in janna aaaafter the prostration was ordered to the angels .. and adam came down to earth aafter that .. so when wld evolution play out if adam was already shaped by The Lord before being in jannah or descending to earth

Now I will go very deep but make sure you are ready for it. Take a cup of coffee, relax and then think along with me. Garden of Eden/Jannah could be on Earth! Wait! I am not alone in saying this. There are 100s of misguided and foolish interpreters who said this. Just as I am misguided and you are fully guided, let me ask you this question Sir.

How did Adam's white blood cells fought with viruses and bacteria of this Earth when he reached on Earth? Thank God He didn't come during corona virus outbreak! Our white blood cells have learned immunity from viruses and bacteria with millions of years how to fight mechanisms. But forget it! Let's say Adam did in fact came on spaceship (assuming it was good enough to protect from Sun's UV light and lack of oxygen), just for the sake of argument. What did his gut do in heaven when he didn't go to bathroom or what did his reproductive system do in heaven in which he didn't need to have babies. Please answer this.

Also note that your understanding of Quran verses could be wrong, not Quran's word but your own understanding. Maybe you are thinking differently or maybe majority of people are thinking differently as God said most people in the world are misguided, so it's not very astonishing that this could be the case. If you think there a possibility that something else can be true then you can read further otherwise I advise you to close this reply and don't read further.

Many interpreters have said that Adam couldn't be in the Heaven before coming to Earth, as it is generally believed. They have their logic. They say that regarding Heaven God has said that there is no eye that has seen it nor a thought that has imagined Heaven ever! And that includes Adam! So yes! They have a point here Sir!

Furthermore, Adam as eating from the tree of knowledge of evil and good, before it he was in the state of felicity. Do you know what is a state of felicity? It is so amazing that we don't know right from wrong, evil from good, up or down, top or bottom, left or right, we are completely in extasy (something that you can achieve by drinking 20 glasses of vodka with sprite, kidding lolz, pardon me, i want things to be fun as well without being an intellectual wizard)

But when they did what they were told not to do, i.e. eat from the tree, they started covering themselves, they recognized right from wrong, evil from good. So even while on Earth, after having this distinction of good and evil they also made another distinction when God told them, 'Get ye down all of you' mean that they realized they are no longer in heavenly state of felicity but on Earth which is different from Heaven. Notice! When there is no good and evil, everything is good. Remember when Shakespeare said, 'Nothing is good and nothing is bad, what we think is true'. It's that sort of stuff.

The great thing to know here is that Adam was around 5750 years ago according to bible's account and the oldest scripture/written text is around 5500 years in Mesopotamia. Could it be that when Adam was taught all potential names and angels said we know only what you told us God, God wanted to show how now his work on guidance, books, writing, will continue with other Prophets after Adam? As writing started at times of Adam. We have no written manuscripts before Sumerians in Mesopotamia 5500 years ago who were even older than Egyptian writings which were 5200 years ago. Doesn't that prove that Adam is special type of Homo Sapiens who developed knowledge and started writing/reading/guidance chapter in our linage.

Spoken Language is very old. 70,000 years ago we have evidence of larynx or voice box, but writing is only recent i.e. only 5,500 years old i.e. the same time period as that of Adam. The whole story of Adam and Eve actually took place on Earth. 4:1 Hawa was 'nafsin wahida' (feminine) who gave birth to 'zojaha' (masculine) Adam, who after becoming mature also became husband of Hawa. Hawa was both wife and mother of Adam. Even to hide Hawa's 'aura' God gave her 'hijab' by not mentioning her name in 'nafsin wahida' (feminine). Quran is total 180 degrees from Hadith story of Eve coming from Adam's rib. If it were Adam, God should have used the name of Adam just as he did in all other places except for 4:1 and 7:189 where 'nafsin wahida' is used.

God has also said in one verse that the comparison of creation of Adam is like that of Jesus. This is true only if both Jesus and Adam had a mom. Otherwise how is their creation similar to each other? Were Eve and Mary both Hermaphrodite? Who gave birth to their son? Who didn't need a father? I will prove it without doubt all this in a different post. But i am tired. Listen! Believe what you want to believe and let me believe what I want to believe. This is the Islamic way! Peace!

Here i stop! Phew!

Quote
plus those whom scientists claim to be human/monkey ancestors were sabath breakers turned into abject/wierd monkeys (7:166 & 2:65)

There is a thing in Quran called allegories... have you heard about it before? Let me tell you! God says in Quran in one verse 'The sky will fall down' but we know that sky can't fall down. Sky is not a tent or canopy that can fall down on us. He could have said planets or meteors will fall down, which he did also in some verses. But why did he say 'The sky will fall down'? The blue we see up on top is atmosphere of Earth that has ozone layer too. It's not solid foundation that can fall down.

Similarly, for Jews God says we made them Apes and Monkeys. It's allegory. There is no historical evidence of humans turning to monkeys and apes physically. Apes and Monkeys are allegories for Mischievous and Retarded! That's what we call people in our day to day language too. Are you an ass? And they understand them as being called stupid!

Who's denying that God did it? Who created Earth > God! How was it created? Solar Nebula got coalesced and formed planets and our Sun. Who created Universe > God! How was it created? Big Bang. Who created us, Humans > God! How were we created? Evolution. I don't understand how mention of creator means we have to invoke magic and let go of all known natural processes in life? Didn't God say 'Use means to reach to God' in Quran? Even we have to use means to get something. Trying praying whole day for God to bring you a million dollars and see what happens. Your prayer is only answered if you also acquire a means (job, business). Sunnat Allah is also like that. It finds means to do things. It only intervenes with miracles when there is a need out of the ordinary.

Thank you!

salman378

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Re: Evolution and Creation: Clash or One Reality
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2022, 07:27:56 PM »
Next!

jkhan

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Re: Evolution and Creation: Clash or One Reality
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2022, 11:00:21 PM »
Next!

If everything is evolved then who the begger is God? 

Or else you are trying to say everything evolved but God let it evolve.. For evolution also there must be God behind it?  Give me a break..
Let's keep for a second everything evolved...  So why we need a system in this Earth while everyone has their own freedom to live on their own way regardless of good and bad.. Human must be the funniest and weakest of creature to bring God in life while animal live on their own as they evolved..

We have a life span is this evolved life... So many things happening within our world.. So everyone was evolved and no justice in Earth to everyone and with death everything is terminated... So is this the purpose of evolving..
So what is the purpose of life in the light of evolution?

So do you believe in God while God is a myth and weak people's  invention...  What part a God can do in evolution...?  Literally nothing.. Sorry.. Everything evolved so why we need God in life?  Godless life is so beautiful so we can be free from fear or punishment... Or we can be brave in this life by deceiving every weak junk person who doesn't deserve to live on this competitive world where only intelligent has a place to live with power...

Don't get angry with me.. Just hypothetical question...  If you have a wife and some intelligent person raped and killed and enjoyed and went far ahead in life...  What would you do if justice if this world failed to punish that person.. Why you need justice while you were weak and not able to save your wife..?  So you revenging mind will fade off with time.. Or forgive him.. Or why forgive while there is no life after death.. Coz to have life after death then there must be creation...  So no creation so no punishment no justice.. Or do you wait until evolve again and revenge.. Do you think practically evolution woukd suit human nature..?  While we naturally built up with some of created creature?
Let us die with guidance
https://youtube.com/@purposeofliving