Author Topic: An important question about freewill  (Read 416 times)

Green Anarchism

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 290
  • Karma +12/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: An important question about freewill
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2021, 05:27:01 AM »
This just proves that GOD s knowledge is not influencing your decisions.

But that is wishful thinking (arrogance), it is not freewill..    :rotfl:

So leave anyone who denies this discourse to Me! We will lead them, step by step, into destruction (plane crash) from where they do not know. I will allow them more time. My subterfuge is sure. (68:44-45)

But as for those who deny Our Signs, We will lead them, step by step, into destruction (Do you not see that We send the shaytans against those who are kafir/relativists to goad them on? 19:83) from where they do not know. I will give them more time. My strategy is sure. (7:182-183)



Paradise/freewill is not obtained by your wishful thinking (4:123)

Allah grants a guarantee to those of you who believe and perform the righteous deeds. He will most certainly appoint them the successors on earth, just like He appointed the people prior to you as successors. He will consolidate their way of life, much to their satisfaction. He will change their present state of insecurity and fear, into one of safety and peace (without the need for "self-deception" and "self-destruction"). They would worship Me and would not associate anyone as My partner. Whoever disbelieves after this, is certainly wicked (24:55)

When Allah desires to guide someone, He expands his breast to Islam (surrender to the sunnatullah/moral universalism). When He desires to misguide someone, He makes his breast narrow and constricted as if he were climbing up into the sky. That is how Allah defiles those who have no iman (in moral universalism, sunnatullah) (6:125)



freewill

He said, ´I call on Allah/way of Allah/sunnatullah/moral universalism to be my witness/protector, and you also bear witness, that I am free (my will, freeing my will, freewill) of all the gods you have apart from Him. So scheme against me, all of you together (8 billions ppl), and then grant me no respite. I have put my trust in Allah/way of Allah/sunnatullah/moral universalism, my Lord (Law, of nature) and your Lord (Law, of nature). There is no creature He does not hold by the forelock. My Lord is on a Straight Path (Truly you are guiding to a Straight Path: ie. the Path of Allah to Whom everything in the heavens and everything on the earth belongs. Indeed all matters return eventually to Allah/way of Allah/sunnatullah/moral universalism 42:52-53)´ (11:54-56)

Those who flow as life flows know they need no other force  :voodoo:

Mahdi20

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: An important question about freewill
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2021, 06:22:20 AM »
Salam again

Thanks hawk20.... this was a great and convincing example...

Nice explanations jkhan... this was a great sentence from you[understand the Mercy of God, Knowledge of God, Will of God properly… and don’t complicate that with Freedom of Human Being… Allah doesn’t interfere with our own will unless He really wanted to as I explained above.. … (and your 2 examples was good....) ]

Peace good logic...  thanks for your answer and explanation.... this sentence [Of course GOD has created us and set our birth and death with a precise measure in time] It caused me another question(this question isnt related about free will.... i will ask it later in another topic)

Brother Green anarchism the way you interpret this verses... is so far from true meaning of it..... at least in my opinion... but thanks for you answer
And from among the people are some who take other than God as equals to Him, they love them as they love God; but those who believe love God more strongly....

Green Anarchism

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 290
  • Karma +12/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: An important question about freewill
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2021, 06:29:46 AM »
Brother Green anarchism the way you interpret this verses... is so far from true meaning of it..... at least in my opinion...

of course, for we are freeing our will and the spartans  :rotfl:

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure (Have you seen the one who has taken his own whims as his god? Are you responsible for him? 25:43).


You are well aware of the first creation/sperm; then, do you learn no lesson from it? (56:62)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VzL7Oph61k



jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1582
  • Karma +5/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: An important question about freewill
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2021, 08:53:37 AM »
Salam again

Thanks hawk20.... this was a great and convincing example...

Nice explanations jkhan... this was a great sentence from you[understand the Mercy of God, Knowledge of God, Will of God properly… and don’t complicate that with Freedom of Human Being… Allah doesn’t interfere with our own will unless He really wanted to as I explained above.. … (and your 2 examples was good....) ]

Peace good logic...  thanks for your answer and explanation.... this sentence [Of course GOD has created us and set our birth and death with a precise measure in time] It caused me another question(this question isnt related about free will.... i will ask it later in another topic)

Brother Green anarchism the way you interpret this verses... is so far from true meaning of it..... at least in my opinion... but thanks for you answer

Peace...
I know it was a lenthy reply.. Hope you would have got what is Will of human being..
Problem occurs in understanding the key verses.. I also had an issue in the will of human being.. People in general think that "everything happens according to His will"... For that I mark a big No... nowhere in Quran it is stated that human being cannot will unless God will for everything... God connected that particular phrase for Guidance of right path of Allah.. That's so obvious.. If one understands that first it is clear We as human beings have our own free will other God's Guidance and God's  direct involvement into our actions as I elaborated in my last thread..

Read all WILL verses in Quran and you won't find any verses which says that you can't  will unless God wills connected with any human action other than Guidance..
So guidance is Mercy.. Mercy of God is shown only to those whome Allah wills.. Coz it is His attribute.. He uses as He likes..

Finally,  We all have our own free will to live our life with our option and preference... God doesn't intervene in it.. Except as I said before..

Green Anarchism

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 290
  • Karma +12/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: An important question about freewill
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2021, 09:55:47 AM »
Read all WILL verses in Quran and you won't find any verses which says that you can't  will unless God wills connected with any human action other than Guidance..

Yes, I'm waiting to see how you escape the "consequences of your choice"  :rotfl:

Is it other than the deen of Allah that you desire, when everything in the heavens and earth, willingly or unwillingly, submits to Him and to Him you will be returned [ie. You are free to choose, but you are not free from the consequences of your choice .... therefore, no freewill]? (3:83)

Shown by their arrogance/RELATIVISM in the land and evil plotting. But evil/RELATIVISM plotting envelops only those who do it. Do they expect anything but the pattern of previous peoples? You will not find any changing in the pattern of Allah/UNIVERSALISM. You will not find any alteration in the pattern of Allah/UNIVERSALISM. (35:43)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmquM2jum6I&t=132s

Emre_1974tr

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 285
  • Karma +0/-1
Re: An important question about freewill
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2021, 02:56:47 PM »
In the Name of God

Salam, sorry for bad grammar


as i know, if now i am writing.... its my choice right? i have choiced to wright.... and this is my free will

i may choice to become believer or unbeliever

But this verses are sooooo confusing....

وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ أُمِّ مُوسَىٰ أَنْ أَرْضِعِيهِ ۖ فَإِذَا خِفْتِ عَلَيْهِ فَأَلْقِيهِ فِي الْيَمِّ وَلَا تَخَافِي وَلَا تَحْزَنِي ۖ إِنَّا رَادُّوهُ إِلَيْكِ وَجَاعِلُوهُ مِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ


This verse say the God said to mother of moses to release him in water.... so we willget moses back to you and moses will be a messenger

What is the free will in this? God say the now infant moses will be a messenger.... what?  Maybe moses might choice to not become a messenger, but God tell to his mother that he will be a messenger, its in contrast with free will in my opinion, and what about Where the God say that moses will be get back to his mother... but what about the freewill? Maybe someone else pickup moses from the water and even kill him. But God says A will pick up moses and the rest of the story

Another verses that is so confusing is the story of moses and someone else(18:60-18:82)

In this verse... that mystery man kill a teenager or a young man(by the command of God) and say to moses

And as for the lad, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.

What? Why he killed him... maybe he should not oppress them....


Or the dream of joseph.... and the other examples

And i know that God knows everything.... so if God knows my future, what about freewill?

Help me please.... im so confused  :confused: :confused:


Thanks


[also if someone can learn me how to make [new] in front of my title i ll be so thankful....)

My Turkish article translated with machine:

Our Lord's knowledge does not affect free will.

The fact that God knows what we will do with our free will is interpreted by some people as "no free will". Objections such as “So we cannot do the opposite of what is known” are rising.

No, knowing what to choose with our free will does not affect the freedom of will. There is not even the slightest connection.

Being able to do the opposite of something is one thing, and doing it is another.

For example, let's say a person would choose option A in such and such an event. Our Lord knows this too. There is also the freedom to do the opposite, that is, not to choose this option. But he will choose option A by his own decision.

In short, he may not make the move of choosing option A, but he will do it anyway.

Man does not choose because Allah knows, but our Creator knows because he chooses option A of his own free will.

Let's take a different example:

11:107 Abiding therein as long as the heavens and the earth exist, except for what your Lord wishes. Your Lord does as He pleases.

11:108 As for those who are happy, they will be in the Paradise; abiding therein as long as the heavens and the earth exist, except for what your Lord wishes, a giving without end.

Almighty God is here telling us what he will do in the future.

And he says "I will never remove those in Paradise unless I wish otherwise"

And he promises he won't.

In other words, he says, "I can change my decision if I want, but those in Paradise will stay there forever because I have free willed them to stay."

This provides us with a second proof, another proof of free will.

In this case, we know what God will do in the future.

But it means that our knowing what God will do in the future does not affect His free will.

Just as His knowing what we are going to do does not affect our free will.

Being able to do something is one thing, doing it is another. And this is the result of free will.

Greetings and love.

http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com/2011/07/rabbimizin-bilmesi-ozgur-iradeyi.html



Green Anarchism

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 290
  • Karma +12/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: An important question about freewill
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2021, 04:38:46 PM »
The fact that God knows what we will do with our free will is interpreted by some people as "no free will".

So this is what freewill looks like?  :rotfl:

The only saying of the believers, when they are called to Allah and His Messenger  to judge between them is that they say: “We hear and we obey.” And such are the successful. (24:51) As for those who deny Our Signs and are arrogant/freewill regarding them, the Gates of Heaven will not be opened for them, and they will not enter the Garden until a camel goes through a needle´s eye. That is how We repay the evildoers. (7:40)



In this case, we know what God will do in the future.

But it means that our knowing what God will do in the future does not affect His free will.

So much for wishful thinking.... lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jARp24AJWLk

I swear I shall fill Hell with you and all who follow you/FREEWILL/MORAL RELATIVISM (7:18) On the Day We will say to Hell, "Are you full?" And it will say, "Are there some more?" (50:30) Those who have iman and do right actions, and how few they are! (38:24)

Satan says: "The reason that there is no access to absolute morals (ie. there is FREEWILL) is obvious: there is no (good!) god!"



Just as His knowing what we are going to do does not affect our free will.

Being able to do something is one thing, doing it is another. And this is the result of free will.

That is the result of "MAKING EVIDENT FOR THE TRIAL,"  it is not the result of freewill.... lol

Do people imagine that they will be left to say, ´We have iman,´ and will not be tested? We tested those before them so that Allah would make evident the truthful and would make evident the liars. Or do those who commit sins think they can fool Us? Terrible is their opinion! (29:2-4) And surely We will test you until We make evident those who strive among you and the patient ones, and We will test your affairs. (47:31)


just a bunch of liars... with christian indoctrination



If the truth were to follow their WHIMS AND DESIRES/FREEWILL/MORAL RELATIVISM, the heavens and the earth and everyone in them would have been brought to ruin. No indeed! We have given them their Reminder/MORAL UNIVERSALISM, but they have turned away from it. (23:71)

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1582
  • Karma +5/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: An important question about freewill
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2021, 05:51:09 PM »
Yes, I'm waiting to see how you escape the "consequences of your choice"  :rotfl:


Peace...

Your waiting to see the consequences of others won't make any difference in the decision of Allah...  You wait and we wait and let God decide.. Just get out ignorance...  There is no value for ignorance.. Just answer to people's questions how it deserve rather than making it fun out of it...

Salam everyone..

6:112 "And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord HAD WILLED, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent. "

Lets clarify the above verse about what God didn't will... Here it is clear that Had God willed He would not have let those ignorants to concoct or rather fabricate stories... And God let it happen as they WILLED.. God didn't interfere in their WILL..

If anyone still ponder that everything happens according to the will of God as most say conventionally then it is obviously wrong statement which has no support within Quran...  What God does and what human does are entirely two different things..  Deeply ponder.. That's the way..

I would like to give couple of examples..
God says why you not fight against those who persecute your people.. They can simply say God didnt will so we don't fight.. But while God orders to do.. How come God has a will that these people not to fight and still questioning them why not  fight..
Or.. Why you kill innocent children.. Clearly it is not the will of God.. If so why God should ask why you kill innocent children while that is his will...  So dive in deeply into the verses of Quran and crack out the truth for yourself...

We have will.. And God has will.. Will is not only with God but with human being as well.. A man copulate with his wife.. It his own will and not the will of God.. If there is a baby in the womb of his wife,  that is the will of God.. Try to grasp the difference...

Mosa story and musa life... Yes God did have a plan over musa...  This is called Mercy.. But Allah didn't go agaisnt Musa's will... Everything  musa did in his life was his own will..  Is it God's will that musa should kill a person.. No way... It was Musa's aggression and got duped by his friend.. But Allah did show mercy on him by forgiving him.. Coz Allah forgives whom He wills.. No one can forgive... Mosas mother was inspired... That's the will of God.. Her reluctance her worry all her will.. God strenthed her heart... That's mercy..  In the end Mosa was returned to his mother.. That's is mercy of Allah.. And Allah shows mercy to whom He wills..
Musa did ask God to give his brother as support and it was a mercy towards musa.. Allah shows mercy to whom he wills in abundance... When mercy of Allah comes that changes our destiny...
If Allah is to say one day to Hell are you full?  Then it is the knowledge of God... If Allah to forgive everyone on earth and it is the Will of God...
We can't change the mercy,  knowledge and will of God in our life.. We live within our own frame with our own will..

Green Anarchism

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 290
  • Karma +12/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: An important question about freewill
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2021, 12:32:28 AM »
Peace...

Your waiting to see the consequences of others won't make any difference in the decision of Allah...  You wait and we wait and let God decide.. Just get out ignorance...  There is no value for ignorance.. Just answer to people's questions how it deserve rather than making it fun out of it...

Salam everyone..

6:112 "And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord HAD WILLED, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent. "





Lets clarify the above verse about what God didn't will... Here it is clear that Had God willed He would not have let those ignorants to concoct or rather fabricate stories... And God let it happen as they WILLED.. God didn't interfere in their WILL..

Yes, I'm waiting to see how you escape the "consequences of your choice"  :rotfl:








If anyone still ponder that everything happens according to the will of God as most say conventionally then it is obviously wrong statement which has no support within Quran...  What God does and what human does are entirely two different things..  Deeply ponder.. That's the way..

So leave anyone who denies this discourse to Me! We will lead them, step by step, into destruction (plane crash) from where they do not know. I will allow them more time. My subterfuge is sure. (68:44-45)

But as for those who deny Our Signs, We will lead them, step by step, into destruction (Do you not see that We send the shaytans against those who are kafir/relativists to goad them on? 19:83) from where they do not know. I will give them more time. My strategy is sure. (7:182-183)

I would like to give couple of examples..
God says why you not fight against those who persecute your people.. They can simply say God didnt will so we don't fight.. But while God orders to do.. How come God has a will that these people not to fight and still questioning them why not  fight..
Or.. Why you kill innocent children.. Clearly it is not the will of God.. If so why God should ask why you kill innocent children while that is his will...  So dive in deeply into the verses of Quran and crack out the truth for yourself...

We have will.. And God has will..

Will is not only with God but with human being as well..


A man copulate with his wife..  :rotfl: It his own will and not the will of God.. If there is a baby in the womb of his wife,  that is the will of God..

Try to grasp the difference...   :rotfl:







Mosa story and musa life... Yes God did have a plan over musa...  This is called Mercy.. But Allah didn't go agaisnt Musa's will... Everything  musa did in his life was his own will..  Is it God's will that musa should kill a person.. No way... It was Musa's aggression and got duped by his friend.. But Allah did show mercy on him by forgiving him.. Coz Allah forgives whom He wills.. No one can forgive... Mosas mother was inspired... That's the will of God.. Her reluctance her worry all her will.. God strenthed her heart... That's mercy..  In the end Mosa was returned to his mother.. That's is mercy of Allah.. And Allah shows mercy to whom He wills..
Musa did ask God to give his brother as support and it was a mercy towards musa.. Allah shows mercy to whom he wills in abundance... When mercy of Allah comes that changes our destiny...

Quote
Musa chose seventy men from his people for Our appointed time and when the earthquake seized them he said, ´My Lord, if You had willed, You could have destroyed them previously and me as well. Would you destroy us for what the fools among us did? It was only a trial from You by which You misguided those You willed and guided those You willed. You are our Protector so forgive us and have mercy on us. You are the Best of Forgivers. Prescribe good for us in this world and the Next World. We have truly turned to You.´ He said, ´As for My punishment, I strike with it anyone I will. My mercy extends to all things but I will prescribe it for those who have taqwa and pay zakat, and those who believe in Our Signs: those who follow the Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel, commanding them to do right and forbidding them to do wrong, making good things halal for them and bad things haram for them, relieving them of their heavy loads and the chains which were around them. Those who have iman in him and honour him and help him, and follow the Light that has been sent down with him, they are the ones who are successful (for Allah's mercy... Tawba).´ ...

I/33:45 got a covenant with God, so He will not forgive you... I/3:64 am.  :rotfl:

It is a promise binding on Us. That is what We will do. (21:104) Allah grants a guarantee to those of you who believe (Or do you think you will enter Heaven without experiencing the trials of those who were before you. They experienced misery, hard times, and they were so shaken that even their messenger and the believers with him cried, "When will God's help arrive?" Truly, God's help is near. 2:214) and perform the righteous deeds. He will most certainly appoint them the successors on earth (24:55/ 21:105-107) We sent no Messenger/22:78 except to be obeyed by Allah´s permission. If only when they wronged themselves they had come to you and asked Allah´s forgiveness and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them they would have found Allah Ever-Returning, Most Merciful. (4:64) Those who reject Allah and His Messengers/22:78 and they want to make a distinction between Allah and His Messengers, saying, ´We have iman in some and reject the others,´ wanting to take a pathway in between, such people are the true kuffar. (4:150-151)
Say: ´Mankind! I am the Messenger of Allah/WAY OF ALLAH/SUNNATULLAH/NATURALISM/NATURAL JUSTICE/MORAL UNIVERSALISM to you all, of Him to whom the kingdom of the heavens and earth belongs. There is no god but Him. He gives life and causes to die.´ So have iman in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who has iman in Allah and His words, and follow him so that hopefully you will be guided.´(7:155-158)




If Allah is to say one day to Hell are you full?  Then it is the knowledge of God... If Allah to forgive everyone on earth and it is the Will of God...

I swear I shall fill Hell with you and all who follow you/FREEWILL/MORAL RELATIVISM (7:18)

....
just a bunch of liars... with christian indoctrination




If the truth were to follow their WHIMS AND DESIRES/FREEWILL/MORAL RELATIVISM, the heavens and the earth and everyone in them would have been brought to ruin. No indeed! We have given them their Reminder/MORAL UNIVERSALISM, but they have turned away from it. (23:71)





We can't change the mercy,  knowledge and will of God in our life.. We live within our own frame with our own will..

Satan says: "The reason that there is no access to absolute morals (ie. there is FREEWILL) is obvious: there is no (good!) god!"





You can't fix stupid and stupid can't fix themselves....

Yes, I'm waiting to see how you escape the "consequences of your choice"  :rotfl:

But when they saw Our violent force their iman was of no use to them. That is the pattern Allah has always followed with His slaves. Then and there the kafirun were lost. (40:85) You will never find any change in God’s way (33:62)

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1582
  • Karma +5/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: An important question about freewill
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2021, 01:36:16 AM »
Yes, I'm waiting to see how you escape the "consequences of your choice" 

Okay keep following me...  I have no time to wait for you..  :rotfl: