Author Topic: Messengers amoung us?  (Read 1219 times)

LetTheTruthBeTold

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2021, 07:30:52 AM »
Peace...

I absolutely don't agree with your explanation of the two crucial verses.. 43:61 and 61:06...

Isa is not the sign/knowledge of the hour... That's your imagination... Read the verse with its merit and grammar and ponder...

Further messenger to come after Isa has already come for children of Israel.. Who was he is not important but he came and they rejected him....

If you don't agree let me explain further..

Peace Jkhan,

Thank you for sharing your perspective, I appreciate it. You made some valid points. 😊

Peace
39:53  Say: "O My servants who transgressed against themselves, do not despair of the mercy of God. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, the Merciful."

good logic

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2021, 09:00:27 AM »
Peace All.
Once we accept Qoran, it becomes our live" messenger".

Accepting human messengers is irrelevant because the criteria is in Qoran ,the warning is in Qoran ,their message is in Qoran, ...If they are true, they will only direct us to Qoran. Nothing but Qoran s message.

The prophet warned by "Qoran- Li undhirakum Bihi Wa Man Balagh-" his generation and Qoran is here to warn all coming generations.

Coming messengers is no big deal, we are responsible to check all information given by anyone with Qoran.

Following Qoran is following all true messengers past ,present and future.

Messengers , including the living messenger- Qoran- have a clear message for the humans:

"This is a message for all the people.
 For those who wish to go straight (yastaqeem in Arabic text, a verb derivative from STRAIGHT/MUSTAQEEM /Upright...).

 GOD is talking to all of us-humans-.
Once we come across the message of Qoran, it becomes apparent to "uoli Al Albab"- Those that choose to follow the message- that the straight path is the clear message(6:151-153) and:

The path of God, to whom belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. Absolutely, all matters are controlled by God.

 God placed the instinct of right from wrong in our hearts before coming to earth. Humans are gifted with what would place them on the starting point of the STRAIGHT PATH-To be fair, to be  respectful to have the right attitude and conduct, be just...etc-. Once we decide to hit that point, we are promised to be blessed with all the guiding means from God to stay on it. The choice is always ours.
 
We, all humans, should reflect on this conditioned and honourable invitation from GOD ,our creator:

With it( Qoran s message), God guides those who seek His approval. He guides them to the path of peace, leads them out of darkness into the light by His leave, and guides them in a straight path.
 
And there lies the cause /aim of the message(From all the messengers of GOD past present and future.). The majority of course have ignored or will ignore the message from the one who created us all and knows what is best for us.

GOD bless you all.
Peace
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tlihawa

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2021, 11:33:34 AM »
Peace bro
 Always welcome your opinions... Coz I am here to learn and cultivate my mind I feel that's necessary for solid guidance...
Salaam jkhan
allright then. Here is my opinion regarding 43:61. It starts from 43:57.

43:57   And when the son of Mary was put forth as an example, your people turned away from it

43:58   And they said: "Our gods are better or is he <huwa - singular>? " They only put this forth to argue with you. Indeed, they are a quarrelsome people.

43:59   He <huwa  -  singular> was no more than a servant whom We graced, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel.

43:60   And if We willed, We could have made some of you angels <plural> to be successors <yakhlufūna> on the earth.

43:61   And he <wa innahu - singular> was a knowledge for the Hour. So have no doubt about it. And follow Me; this is a straight path.

I think wa innahu which is singular is referring to Isa son of Maryam mentioned in the previous verses in context.

The angels themselves, only if God willed, He could made them as successor on the earth. But they are not, since we are the successor on the earth,

6:165 And He is the One who made you successors <khalaifa> on the earth, and He raised some of you over others in grades, to test you with what He had given you. Your Lord is swift to punishment, and He is Forgiving, Merciful.

Just imagine the same context when you read these verses,

17:95   Say: "If the earth had angels walking about in security, We would have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger."

23:24   But the leaders who rejected from among his people said: "What is this but a mortal like you? He wants to make himself better than you! And if it was indeed the will of God, He would have sent down angels. We did not hear such a thing among our fathers of old."

and for the 61:6,

61:6 And when Isa, son of Mary, said: "O children of Israel, I am a messenger of God to you, affirming what is between my hands of the Taurat and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be Ahmad. But when he came to them <jaahum - 3rd person masculine plural object pronoun> with the clear proofs, they said: "This is clearly magic."

the only hum (from jaahum) in those verse is refer to Bani Israil whom Isa spoke to at that time. So the "he" in "when he came to them" was Isa Son of Maryam.

Once again, this is not to judge your opinion. I respect different thoughts.  And let say:

3:7 ..."We believe in it, all is from our Lord."

cause none will remember except those who possess intelligence.

Peace

Layth

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2021, 02:53:30 PM »
Salam.

I believe messengers will continue to be inspired until the end of our times. Don’t know about the 4 you mentioned, but messengers would usually shy away from the limelight as they’re more focused on the task.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

ade_cool

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2021, 07:53:05 PM »
Peace everyone...

7:35
O Children of Adam! When messengers of your own come unto you who narrate unto you My revelations, then whosoever refraineth from evil and amendeth - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

Do you understand this verse to mean that there will be messengers amoung us today, and forevermore till the end of time?

Salam LetTheTruthBeTold,

Please have a look at this thread:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611457.0


Wassalam

ade_cool

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2021, 09:02:55 PM »
I also think there are messengers amoung us, but I am bit confused on how to approach this situation, when I, already have the Quran. Please feel free to share your thoughts, thank you.

Salam LetTheTruthBeTold,

Not directly related to this topic, but one of the objections from those who uphold sahih hadith books to us is that messenger is not just a postman who delivers Quran and that's it. They argue that messenger is sent to explain clearly and the explanations of Quran are now compiled in sahih hadith books.

[5:92] And obey God and obey the messenger, and be aware. If you turn away then know that it is the duty of Our messenger to deliver clearly.


Previously I was Sunni so the way I see it now is yes I have Quran with me but I was totally in darkness, I was in error manifest despite having Quran with me until God sent messenger.

When I was Sunni, whenever I read "obey God and obey messenger", I always understand it to mean uphold Quran and uphold sahih hadith books. And at some point in my life, God sent messenger explaining and clarifying the message. So here I am now.

Some verses to ponder regarding this.

[3:164] Indeed, God bestowed a favour upon the believers when he raised up in them messenger from among themselves, to convey His messages unto them, and to cause them to grow in purity, and to teach them the Kitab and the Hikmah - whereas before that they were indeed, most obviously, lost in error.


[2:151] As We have sent in you messenger from among yourselves to recite Our revelations to you, and purify you, and teach you the Book and the Hikmah, and teach you what you did not know.


Wassalam

jkhan

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2021, 11:19:11 PM »
Salaam jkhan
allright then. Here is my opinion regarding 43:61. It starts from 43:57.

43:57   And when the son of Mary was put forth as an example, your people turned away from it

43:58   And they said: "Our gods are better or is he <huwa - singular>? " They only put this forth to argue with you. Indeed, they are a quarrelsome people.

43:59   He <huwa  -  singular> was no more than a servant whom We graced, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel.

43:60   And if We willed, We could have made some of you angels <plural> to be successors <yakhlufūna> on the earth.

43:61   And he <wa innahu - singular> was a knowledge for the Hour. So have no doubt about it. And follow Me; this is a straight path.

I think wa innahu which is singular is referring to Isa son of Maryam mentioned in the previous verses in context.

The angels themselves, only if God willed, He could made them as successor on the earth. But they are not, since we are the successor on the earth,

6:165 And He is the One who made you successors <khalaifa> on the earth, and He raised some of you over others in grades, to test you with what He had given you. Your Lord is swift to punishment, and He is Forgiving, Merciful.

Just imagine the same context when you read these verses,

17:95   Say: "If the earth had angels walking about in security, We would have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger."

23:24   But the leaders who rejected from among his people said: "What is this but a mortal like you? He wants to make himself better than you! And if it was indeed the will of God, He would have sent down angels. We did not hear such a thing among our fathers of old."

and for the 61:6,

61:6 And when Isa, son of Mary, said: "O children of Israel, I am a messenger of God to you, affirming what is between my hands of the Taurat and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be Ahmad. But when he came to them <jaahum - 3rd person masculine plural object pronoun> with the clear proofs, they said: "This is clearly magic."

the only hum (from jaahum) in those verse is refer to Bani Israil whom Isa spoke to at that time. So the "he" in "when he came to them" was Isa Son of Maryam.

Once again, this is not to judge your opinion. I respect different thoughts.  And let say:

3:7 ..."We believe in it, all is from our Lord."

cause none will remember except those who possess intelligence.

Peace
Thank you for your interest and further comments...

61:6 you have not brought any considerable amount of proof to take "when he came to them" was Isa...
Isa son of Maryam was already there and he was already communicating to children of Israel as their messenger... It sounds loud and clear that Isa was speaking to his community in a mature state after everyone knowing him as messenger and knowing injjeel and witnessing his miracles... No messenger necessarily need to come at his initial stage with a glad tidings of a messenger to come after him.. That's so weird.. And that won't make any sense for the audience.. Who is he to tell them in his initial stage about a messenger to come after.. But prove first he was a messenger and win the hearts of people and live with them and show clear proofs and when the right time comes in for the Messenger to replace him.. That sounds better...

The word 'falamma' is manifestly indicating that it is not Isa.. It is the projected messenger 'ja'ahum' came to them (children of Israel)  they said it is magic...
Furthet immediately after the word "name" applying 'falamma' makes it more sense that it is not Isa..
That's my opinion...  God knows who speaks the truth...

Regarding 43:61.... Oh dear dear..

Why complicating..
43:57-59 Isa... I do completely agree with Quran... But Isa matter is over with 43:59 ...saying he was an example for the children of Israel...  Had the verse 43:61 appeared immediately after 43:59 or with 43:59 itself we could have put a thought on it..

And a new beginning from the verse 43:60 having no connection to Isa.. ... Totally not relevant to Isa or musa... Yes.. We are Khalifa on Earth not the angels... But read the verse 43:60 more carefully... "If we willed" so God didn't will so..
Then go to verse 43:61... And "IT was knowledge" for the hour..  Why take 'Hu' as He.. But with the flow of the context of verses it befits as IT (innaHU - Verily IT) ..
So.. What God didn't will for the entire time of life span of earth will happen at the Hour when full of angels filled on earth remaining (Khalifa) ... That's the knowledge of the hour... So about the Hour don't have doubt.. How can Isa be the knowledge of the hour...  Is he gonna come back? 
Isa doesn't know what happens on the Earth after his life was terminated.. That he himself accepts on the day of Resurrection answering to God's question ...

Knowledge of the hour should be well-known to everyone who witness it.. In fact everyone who are living and most probably who are dead will witness the Hour... Fund what "Saa" to be exact.. It is not for me kind of time where people live still and Messengers come with miracles.. Hour for me End and destruction taking place... Whatvis your definition according to quran HOUR is...

6:31 "Those will have lost who deny the meeting with Allah , until when the Hour [of resurrection] comes upon them unexpectedly, they will say, "Oh, [how great is] our regret over what we neglected concerning it," while they bear their burdens on their backs. Unquestionably, evil is that which they bear"

It comes unexpectedly...  As I said when the hour take place no one will deny what they see... So useless a messenger comes and people call him magic... It's for sure too late... Coz everything is manifest with what they wItness..

Knowledge of the hour is thing that is witnessed and in a state of shock... Seeing messengers decending in innumerable numbers in fact the knowledge of hour.. So don't doubt about it.. I am afraid it is not Isa...
Before the hour if it was mentioned...  We can consider it as a sign.. But verse doesn't mention BEFORE the Hour..

Finally my beloved brother... No-one has the knowledge of the hour (Sa'a)  but God..

7:187 "They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the Hour: when is its arrival? Say, "Its knowledge is only with my Lord. None will reveal its time except Him   It lays heavily upon the heavens and the earth. It will not come upon you except unexpectedly." They ask you as if you are familiar with it. Say, "Its knowledge is only with Allah , but most of the people do not know."

So...  Knowledge of the hour cannot be coming from a messenger and bringing miracles and people decline him... That's not the scenario.. I am afraid...

Not Isa r any messenger will be knowledge of Hour..

Make it or break it... It's all up to individuals...

Thank you..



 

jkhan

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2021, 03:32:10 AM »
6:130 "O company of jinn and mankind, did there not come to you messengers from among you, relating to you My verses and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say, "We bear witness against ourselves"; and the worldly life had deluded them, and they will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers."

Aren't there true believers on this earth who recite the verses of Allah and warn with it?  What else a mere messenger does without being a prophet ? 

Cream and the essence of Messenger's duty is manifestly elaborated in the above verse.. So Messengers do exist among us... What they do is significant and not who they are...

Green Anarchism

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2021, 09:41:55 AM »
very easy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VzL7Oph61k
https://3speak.tv/watch?v=naturalistparty/dstfkytk

Abdun Nur

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2021, 12:40:44 AM »
The term "witness" in English is very ancient and important to anarchic freedom, the ancient anarchic model of arbitration and the bonds of common unity, all revolves around the term witness, meaning to have knowledge gained from observation or experience.

"Law" is a Ba'alist term, used to replace the ancient British hlǣw meaning Burial mound, tomb, grave. Hill, mound, barrow. Shelter.

Law represents  a legal system for the "dead", which is why a straw man is required by all legal systems in order to deal with a living soul.

You as a living soul have inherent power and no law is needed.