Author Topic: 9 - 5 Jobs & Why the Qur'an Never Abolished Slavery  (Read 322 times)

Neptin

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9 - 5 Jobs & Why the Qur'an Never Abolished Slavery
« on: March 31, 2021, 12:08:35 PM »
The Qur'an Never Prohibited Slavery

I know this is going to sound cringe, but Qur'an isn't at odds with slavery and the people who claim otherwise are shooting themselves in the foot. If the Qur'an opposed slavery as an institution, it would've criminalized or prohibited it, but overall the Qur'an seem indifferent.

People complain that Islam overlooked slavery, that Muhammad or some other respected historical figures owned slaves or supported slavery, and should therefore be condemned today.
These people people don't realize that slavery continues today in form of 9 - 5 or corporate jobs that we all benefit from, support and even partake in.

Why 9 - 5 Work is Modern Slavery

Their complaint is that slaves were for forced to work against their will. Ironically, 9 - 5 workers work against their will, most of them barely endure their jobs, every morning they can't wait to return home and every Monday they can't wait for weekend.

You can say, "9 - 5 workers voluntarily applied for their jobs aware of the difficulties it entails." But realize that there were slaves that voluntarily gave up their freedom to serve a master, for reasons like abject poverty.

But 9 - 5 workers get paid while slaves get nothing, right? Wrong. Slaves customarily get housed and fed in exchange for their labor, which is why people would offer themselves as slaves to wealthy masters. In fact, some slaves lived in better condition than poor non-slaves.

If your complain is that that some slaves were poorly housed or fed, then consider that some 9 - 5 workers today barely earn enough to get by. Which is why we constantly talk about minimum wage.

Still, you may argue that 9 - 5 workers are free to quit at any time while slaves can't. Again, false. 9 - 5 workers can't just quit if they feel oppressed at work. Jobs are scarce, the fear of unemployment and going broke would more than likely force them to continue with their job. I know workers who haven't received salary for 6 months! Even they are afraid to quit their job.

Why the Qur'an Never Abolished Slavery

I do not intend to trivialize slavery. Yeah, it is worse than 9 - 5 work. But it's closest approximation today is 9 - 5 work. And just as today people look back at slavery as a very horrible thing, people in a few centuries will look back at 9 - 5 work as a very terrible state.

Yet as bad as 9 - 5 work is, our society can't do away with it. It is impossible for every one to be self employed. And even if it were possible, quality of services would drop and price would either soar or plummet.

In the end, the reason the Qur'an seem indifferent to slavery is clear. Abolishing it in absolute term is just impossible. Every society depends upon some variation of slavery to sustain itself. At best we can improve the condition of slavery but abolishing it entirely is unlikely.

Peace.
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good logic

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Re: 9 - 5 Jobs & Why the Qur'an Never Abolished Slavery
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2021, 02:37:25 PM »
Has Qoran said that it is alright to have slavery?

Does Qoran not advise to free slaves?

Do people who do wrong listen to Qoran?
Oppressing and enslaving people is the wrong thing to do and in my view Qoran condemns doing wrong in all shapes , form and disguises.
Slavery is oppression and the wrong thing to do regardless.
GOD bless.
Peace.
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Sarah

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Re: 9 - 5 Jobs & Why the Qur'an Never Abolished Slavery
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2021, 05:16:38 PM »
Peace

I also tend to see slavery as a form of oppression. If you look back on the photos of when black people were slaves, they were chained up like they're not even human. Those are pretty depressing photos to look at. Also, people who own or owned slaves tend to be oppressive, disrespectful, arrogant, prejudice and classist towards them. The slaves tend to be left out and ostracised from the rest of society because they are looked down on. This still happens in 3rd world countries and even in the west sometimes. This is the world we live in. A world that values status above morals and character. Show me a historical account where slaves were treated great. I personally have never come across one and even if it exists, it's rare. Why even call them 'slaves'? You do not 'need' slaves or maids in a healthy society.

The way people are treated in 9 to 5 jobs isn't great either although it is better than being a slave as people in jobs have more rights than slaves. But what do we expect of a society that does not follow God's commands. In a truly healthy society, people who happen to own slaves would free them. Notice the term 'slave' is not a title of respect. In a healthy world, everyone would be given honourable titles even if they're low level workers. A moral society would see the value in all professions and people of all socio-economic backgrounds. Even if our society can't do without workers and employees, it can certainly treat them better than how they're treated now. People working physical labour jobs are not just underpaid in terms of their hourly pay but employers will often take advantage of them and not even pay them the minimum wage. They exploit workers. People who are not educated are still looked down on and treated differently to people who are educated with good jobs. But it doesn't have to be this way. In theory, everyone does not need to be self employed however, people can be paid proper living wages so that even the least skilled people would have a decent enough salary to live well off. Again, this doesn't happen because it's impossible for things to be different. It happens because of greed. We can't just say, 'Oh slavery is okay because it's like a 9 to 5 job', if even people in the modern world are underpaid and can hardly afford to pay their rent and bills etc. The fact that low skilled workers/employees are not paid well is a by-product of a corrupt world that lacks empathy and compassion in my opinion.

The Qur'an doesn't seem indifferent. It values the freeing of slaves. Although slavery is not explicitly prohibited perhaps because in theory a slave can be treated well. However, in real life this is hardly ever the case. In terms of the modern world, I don't think God admires how some workers are not paid well per hour or annually. I think He would want people to be paid well enough to be able to live comfortably. Think about it, there are billionaires out there who pay low level workers just about the minimum wage. If they wanted to, they could have paid them well and still remain rich themselves. But they want to be as rich as possible so they give employees the least amount possible.
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Neptin

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Re: 9 - 5 Jobs & Why the Qur'an Never Abolished Slavery
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2021, 11:11:11 PM »
Has Qoran said that it is alright to have slavery?

Does Qoran not advise to free slaves?

Do people who do wrong listen to Qoran?
Oppressing and enslaving people is the wrong thing to do and in my view Qoran condemns doing wrong in all shapes , form and disguises.
Slavery is oppression and the wrong thing to do regardless.
GOD bless.
Peace.

No, there is difference between advising to free slaves in return for divine reward or forgiveness and advising against slavery. If the Qur'an wanted slavery abolished, it would've prohibited it like it did for alcohol, fornication, theft etc.

Plus, if you're concerned about oppression of slaves, what about oppression of corporate workers, or manual laborers? Should we forbid corporate work and manual labor because it tend to be oppressive?

Again, I'm not defending chattel slavery, I know it was brutal at times, but the institution in and of itself cannot be abolished, and this is my point.
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Re: 9 - 5 Jobs & Why the Qur'an Never Abolished Slavery
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2021, 11:49:10 PM »
One cannot be following Qoran if they oppress or enslave people.
Qoran strongly encourages good conduct, respect ,equality   and treating each other with dignity and be nice and amicable to all peaceful humans..

All oppression and bad treatment of others  obvious or hidden is strongly condemned by Qoran..

As for working for people, if one agrees to a contract ,then this agreement should be beneficial to both parties. Qoran endorses such agreements and encourages people to  honor the contract from both sides.
The example of Moses and the Median guy is an example.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Neptin

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Re: 9 - 5 Jobs & Why the Qur'an Never Abolished Slavery
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2021, 12:08:37 AM »
Peace

I also tend to see slavery as a form of oppression. If you look back on the photos of when black people were slaves, they were chained up like they're not even human. Those are pretty depressing photos to look at. Also, people who own or owned slaves tend to be oppressive, disrespectful, arrogant, prejudice and classist towards them. The slaves tend to be left out and ostracised from the rest of society because they are looked down on. This still happens in 3rd world countries and even in the west sometimes. This is the world we live in. A world that values status above morals and character. Show me a historical account where slaves were treated great. I personally have never come across one and even if it exists, it's rare. Why even call them 'slaves'? You do not 'need' slaves or maids in a healthy society.

The way people are treated in 9 to 5 jobs isn't great either although it is better than being a slave as people in jobs have more rights than slaves. But what do we expect of a society that does not follow God's commands. In a truly healthy society, people who happen to own slaves would free them. Notice the term 'slave' is not a title of respect. In a healthy world, everyone would be given honourable titles even if they're low level workers. A moral society would see the value in all professions and people of all socio-economic backgrounds. Even if our society can't do without workers and employees, it can certainly treat them better than how they're treated now. People working physical labour jobs are not just underpaid in terms of their hourly pay but employers will often take advantage of them and not even pay them the minimum wage. They exploit workers. People who are not educated are still looked down on and treated differently to people who are educated with good jobs. But it doesn't have to be this way. In theory, everyone does not need to be self employed however, people can be paid proper living wages so that even the least skilled people would have a decent enough salary to live well off. Again, this doesn't happen because it's impossible for things to be different. It happens because of greed. We can't just say, 'Oh slavery is okay because it's like a 9 to 5 job', if even people in the modern world are underpaid and can hardly afford to pay their rent and bills etc. The fact that low skilled workers/employees are not paid well is a by-product of a corrupt world that lacks empathy and compassion in my opinion.

The Qur'an doesn't seem indifferent. It values the freeing of slaves. Although slavery is not explicitly prohibited perhaps because in theory a slave can be treated well. However, in real life this is hardly ever the case. In terms of the modern world, I don't think God admires how some workers are not paid well per hour or annually. I think He would want people to be paid well enough to be able to live comfortably. Think about it, there are billionaires out there who pay low level workers just about the minimum wage. If they wanted to, they could have paid them well and still remain rich themselves. But they want to be as rich as possible so they give employees the least amount possible.

Peace.

While I agree with many of the concerns you've raised. I still tend to disagree that we can eliminate slavery in its modern manifestation. For instance, you've mentioned billionaire employers paying minimum wage when they can afford more. The thing is, how do we know they can afford to pay more? And is there really is any employer that honestly thinks he's paying his workers too little in return for their services?
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Maha

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Re: 9 - 5 Jobs & Why the Qur'an Never Abolished Slavery
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2021, 12:52:53 AM »
One cannot be following Qoran if they oppress or enslave people.
Qoran strongly encourages good conduct, respect ,equality   and treating each other with dignity and be nice and amicable to all peaceful humans..

All oppression and bad treatment of others  obvious or hidden is strongly condemned by Qoran..

As for working for people, if one agrees to a contract ,then this agreement should be beneficial to both parties. Qoran endorses such agreements and encourages people to  honor the contract from both sides.
The example of Moses and the Median guy is an example.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Very well said. From a religious point of view, slavery is also illogical since its only God who owns humans, and hence humans cannot own each other.
''No one has ever made himself great by showing how small someone else is''

Maha

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Re: 9 - 5 Jobs & Why the Qur'an Never Abolished Slavery
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2021, 01:06:24 AM »
Slavery has been abolished worldwide and in all countries today. At least officially. The thing is, that there are different levels of slavery. If you are forced to have a 9-5 job that you hate but can't leave because you need the salary to pay your rent and food, then yes its a form of slavery. Especially if you are treated badly by a tyrannical boss and bullied at the office, but cant leave. Addictions are also slavery because you cant leave that drug either though you want to. Point is, that there are different levels of slavery and slavery comes in different forms. But an institutional slave of the past would 100 percent rather prefer to have a 9 to 5 job then to be a slave. Because someone with a 9 to 5 job is at least free after 5 and in the weekends, and a worker has more rights and more money and is not forced to sleep around with ''masters''. Hence, a 9-5 job is a luxurious form of slavery 8)

The opposite of slavery is freedom. No one can be completely free Even if you don't have a 9-5 job you will still be opressed by all kinds of rules, regulations, laws, social conducts, culture, customs, norms, etc. That everyone is more or less forced to obey.
''No one has ever made himself great by showing how small someone else is''

Wakas

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Re: 9 - 5 Jobs & Why the Qur'an Never Abolished Slavery
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2021, 02:29:16 AM »
peace Neptin, all,

That is a common superficial view. It has been discussed before, e.g. this thread: https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600888.0

Also see: https://misconceptions-about-islam.com/misconception.php?id=29

Summary:
Quran provides no way of gaining slaves (Arabic: riqab)
Advises and actively promotes freeing of existing slaves
Raises their status in society and promotes their equality.

This would lead to a gradual reduction in slaves in any society and can therefore be applied in any society which is actually quite smart. Thus it may not be abolition but that would be the eventual outcome for such a society.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Sarah

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Re: 9 - 5 Jobs & Why the Qur'an Never Abolished Slavery
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2021, 12:57:11 AM »
@Maha

Peace

Quote
Slavery has been abolished worldwide and in all countries today. At least officially.

But the sad thing is that unofficial forms of slavery still exist.

'Modern slavery takes many forms. The most common are:

Human trafficking. The use of violence, threats or coercion to transport, recruit or harbour people in order to exploit them for purposes such as forced prostitution, labour, criminality, marriage or organ removal.
Forced labour. Any work or services people are forced to do against their will under threat of punishment.
Debt bondage/bonded labour. The world’s most widespread form of slavery. People trapped in poverty borrow money and are forced to work to pay off the debt, losing control over both their employment conditions and the debt.
Descent–based slavery. Most traditional form, where people are treated as property, and their “slave” status was passed down the maternal line.
Slavery of children. When a child is exploited for someone else’s gain. This can include child trafficking, child soldiers, child marriage and child domestic slavery.
Forced and early marriage. When someone is married against their will and cannot leave. Most child marriages can be considered slavery.'

Source:
https://www.antislavery.org/slavery-today/modern-slavery/

A video on modern day slavery:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-Ddc-gEMu8

Quote
The thing is, that there are different levels of slavery. If you are forced to have a 9-5 job that you hate but can't leave because you need the salary to pay your rent and food, then yes its a form of slavery. Especially if you are treated badly by a tyrannical boss and bullied at the office, but cant leave.

But at least it isn't like the forms of slavery mentioned above. You can find and apply for new jobs and change workplaces. Even if the new workplace isn't any good either, you could become self employed, start a business, change industries etc. sooner or later. I personally would rather call it a job with a toxic boss instead of slavery because words have power and if you consider yourself a slave then this thought will seep into your subconscious and it becomes a limiting belief you hold about yourself. This tends to have a negative impact on one's self esteem which affects confidence and productivity levels.
'These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement (hadith) after Allah and His verses will they believe? (45:6)'