Author Topic: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12  (Read 2537 times)

Anoushirvan

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Re: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2020, 09:19:06 AM »
Salam ade_cool,


Because it is concealed? So that only purified ones can understand?

[56:77] It is an honorable Quran.
[56:78] In a concealed Book.
[56:79] None can grasp it, except those purified.

Because it is so heavy?

[73:4] Or a little more, and arrange the Quran in its arrangement.
[73:5] We will place upon you a saying which is heavy.


That so much amount of ink will be needed to elaborate His Kalimah?

[31:27] And if all the trees on the earth were made into pens, and the ocean were supplied by seven more oceans, the words of God  would not run out. God is Noble, Wise.

Maybe.

But:

2:185    The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who witness the month shall fast therein; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

6:105 It is thus that We dispatch the signs and that they may say: "You have studied," and We will make it clear for a people who know.



Etc.

According to https://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=byn#(2:185:9), you have 35 times the occurrence of bayyanu (بَيَّنُ) / to make clear, or 71 times the occurrence of bayyinat (بَيِّنَة) / clear signs, or 119 times the occurrence of the word mubīn (مُّبِين) / clear.

So the lexical field of clarity is overwhelming in Qur'an compared to the other few verses you have exhibited.

So either the few verses you have exhibited have a different meaning than the one you have in mind. Or they were written by someone else.

And regarding verse 31.27, please also note that you don't need a full ocean of ink to write the entire Qur'an but only a small bottle one.



Yup, this is a privilege that we have in this era with the advance of science and technology ...but people in the past also had their own privilege that we don't have ...


Everyone has different background and is guided differently.

Somebody with expertise in geology might be able to better understand verses that touch the subject.
Somebody with expertise in archaeology might be able to better understand verses that touch the subject.
Somebody with expertise in quantum physics might be able to better understand verses that touch the subject.
Somebody with expertise in astronomy might be able to better understand verses that touch the subject.
Somebody with jews background might be able to better relate verses regarding Moses.
Somebody with christian background might be able to better relate verses regarding Jesus.

This is called concordism, i.e. trying to match ancient Scriptures with recent scientific discoveries.

Concordism happens when religion is losing ground to science and reason.

Jews and Christians did it a lot in 19th and 20th centuries. Some continue to do it in a lesser extent but most of them have acknowledged that it leads to nowhere and is just bad hermeneutics.

Muslims have started to do it with Qur'an in the 70s and beyond, probably to imitate evangelical Christians.
And by "Muslims", I include Qur'an-alone people and alike, since for that matter, they share the same mindset.

Buddhists and Hindus do concordism also.

It should be noted that when the Muslim civilization was at its apogee, never did ancient Muslims feel the need to read Qur'an in a concordist way as modern Muslims do. On the contrary, they felt that science or philosophy were going nowhere and that divine truth and knowledge were only in Qur'an.




I am not sure if I understand regarding "this leads to pure non-sense".


I said:

Quote
It leads to pure non-sense, similar to what we hear in traditional Islam, that the true "tawrat" of Moses or the true 'injeel" of Jesus have been irremediably corrupted by Jews and Christian and thus, not available anymore. While, on the contrary, there is no proof that the Bible we know today has been corrupted since the 7th CE.

Well, I mean topics like these:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610829.0
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609253.0
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609757.0
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609226.0

All these imply some sort of answers like the Torah or Gospels we have are corrupted from their original versions.

In Genesis chapter 37, Joseph narrates his dreams to his brothers, while in Qur'an verse 12.5, his father asks him to not tell the dream to his brother.
Still, in Genesis chapter 37, Jacob does not understand the dream of Joseph. But in Qur'an, he does.

Then, why is their a divergence between Pentateuch and Qur'an there ?
Aren't both supposed to come from God ?

If the story of Joseph in Qur'an comes from God but the one narrated in Pentateuch does not come from God, then where does the story of Joseph in Pentateuch actually come from ?
I mean, why was the original "true" story of Joseph, supposed to be identical to the one narrated in Qur'an, not preserved since centuries or millennia before Qur'an by Jews or Christians ?

Or why is that the canonical Gospels say that Jesus was crucified and Qur'an says Issa ben Mariam was not ?

To these, if you have a different answer than usual Muslim argument "Jews and Christians or scribes have corrupted their Scriptures given originally by God, and Qur'an has come to correct the false Bible", then I would be interested to know it.




I am sorry I don't get what you are trying to say here ...can you elaborate please?


I said

Quote
While Qur'an invokes a lot of times Biblical figures, Abraham, Moses, and here Joseph, etc, it is hardly that the assertions of Qur'an about them are compared to the Jewish and Christian traditions, as if Qur'an mentioned biblical figures by coincidence and without any reference to the Jewish tradition.

It sounds as if the stance attributed to Umar ibn Khattab “As for the books you mention, if there is in it what complies with the Book of God, then it is already there and is not needed and if what is in these books contradict the Book of God there is no need for it. And you can then proceed in destroying them.” were still to be applied.


This is simply severing the text from its native roots.
Probably, people believing in Qur'an alone interpretation consciously cut Qur'an from its roots because, since they believe the text is directly authored by God Himself, it must eternally valid in any situation, whether in the past, in present, or in future, and therefore it must not be tied to any historical context.

Surely when a text has no root, you can plant it anywhere, then unfold it and plant it elsewhere again, right ?


The root cause of the problems in understanding Qur'an that I exposed above arises from the this specific belief: that Qur'an should be a text to speak of God, to reveal who is God, to call (especially polytheists) to pure monotheism and to correct mistakes made by previous monotheist people Jews and/or Christians.

This kind of (erroneous) belief has the clear advantage that you don't need any historical context for Qur'an: whatever is God, it is supposed to be the same in the past, in the present, in the future.
If He called to pure monotheism in the 7th CE, then He will do the same in the 21st CE, and since He did that with this "most perfect" Scripture we call "Qur'an", there is no reason for another Scripture in the 21st CE that would add nothing more than Qur'an, right ?

And by the way we don't really need science anyway, right ?
Because either science confirms Qur'an and then it's fine but fairly useless by itself unless it is apologetic.
Or it refutes Qur'an but then science is deluded, not Qur'an.


This is why Muslim belief, including Qur'an-alone belief and alike (God-alone and so on), has to make Qur'an void from historical context.
Or, alternatively, a context that reflects this belief. The asbab an-nuzul were clearly made, forged I would say, to reflect this belief that Qur'an was purposely made for calling to pure monotheism.


But the truth is that Qur'an was never written to call to pure monotheism, this is an erroneous reading.
Qur'an only calls to pure monotheism in a polemical way with its 7th CE adversaries.
It was customary for authors on those times to call their opponents idolaters, and Qur'an is not an exception in this view.

But it is a mistake and a misreading to read that what is at stake in Qur'an is monotheism.

What is at stake are the terms and conditions of salvation.

It is only because according to Jewish and Christian beliefs and Scriptures idolaters (whatever they meant by that) are doomed to damnation that ancient authors, including Qur'an, called their opponent "idolaters" or alike, even though those shared the same Scriptures.

Qur'an says the same as me by the way, read verse 2.113:
2:113    And the Jews say: "The Nazarenes have no basis," and the Nazarenes say: "The Jews have no basis," while they are both reciting the Book! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.

So in order to understand Qur'an, you need to understand first what is "salvation" in the preceding Scriptures, how Jews or Christian understood it, how they reflected upon it, and so on.

Salvation in the Scriptures and in the Jewish/Christian/Gnostic belief is much more than believing in God-alone according to Muslim understanding of Qur'an, and includes concepts like the Messiah, the signs of the coming of the Messiah, the end of times, the world to come, the height of the ordeal or trial, the destruction and restoration of the Jerusalem Temple, the entry of the pagan nations into the Alliance with God, etc.

You don't plainly understand Qur'an until you properly understand salvation in the previous Scriptures and Qur'an.

nimnimak_11

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Re: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2020, 11:45:31 AM »
Brother don't deviate from the context of the verses

Quote
Why God says in 4:79 that if good befalls it is from Allah and if evil befalls it is from self. 
Peace brother

If I suffer harm, then God Harmed me because none can will anything except if God also Wills. This is objectively good if and only if I deserve to be harmed because it's good/perfection for evil people to suffer. God Harms/Punishes evil people and Rewards good people. Thus, do you see that all is from God?. All of this is good/perfect because all people are getting what they deserve. Do you agree so far?

By definition, x cannot be evil without choosing to be evil. x cannot be evil without choosing to reject God (the wholly innocent of evil) in favour of that which is not wholly innocent of evil (money, himself, his family, statues, status amongst people as opposed to status with God etc.). This decision making or commitment that x makes, is from himself. The choice is x's. This is evil on x's part. If God did not punish x for this, then God would be doing unjustly. So, God Punishes x because it's a good thing to punish x. x is punished because he is evil. x being evil is from himself. His suffering is because he chose to be evil. He served committed to other than God. God did perfectly (wholly innocent of evil). x did imperfectly (with evil intent or lack of passion/appreciation for God). The evil was from x, the good was from God. Any event that happens, or anything that befalls anyone, is from God. What x chooses, x chooses. x is responsible. If x is evil, then this is from himself. It is not from God. His suffering and punishment is from God. Do you see now that the woman that is raped, is being punished by God? Do you see that her being raped is perfection/good and this good is from God (because all is from God and none can will anything except if God also Wills). But, her being worthy of being raped, is from herself. The rapist being worthy of going to Hell (if he deserves it), is from himself.

Tell me how else you can interpret the 'all' in 4:78 and the 'anything' in 81:29 without being contradictory if you are able.

Quote
so it is very clear we are responsible for our evil.. Aren't we?
Of course!

Quote
Victim may be innocent but evil of rapist is the reason.. God is not responsible for both victim and rapist..
God is responsible for God/Existence Being Perfect because God Is Perfect. If the victim did not deserve to be harmed, then God should not have Willed for the rapist to rape her. The rapist cannot will anything except if God also Wills (unless of course you completely reject 81:29 as well as reject God/Existence Being Perfect...which is what you seem to be doing).

God could have Willed the rapist to be distracted or suffer amnesia before his evil desires or the disease in his heart (which is probably a product of eating from the tree) kicked in. God could have crippled the rapist before he had the chance to harm the woman, thereby punishing the rapist's evil and not punishing the woman. Amnesia does not cure the disease. Amnesia does not lead to being purified by God.

How can you possibly view God as Perfect if you believe that God allows injustice (innocent people to suffer or evil people to be rewarded all things considered)? So then, the woman who is raped, or the child who gets cancer, or the man who is oppressed, did they deserve what happened to them or not? Is God/Existence truly Perfect or not? What do you want to serve? What is more worthy of worship? A perfect existence or an imperfect one? Pretend/impure/imperfect perfection or true perfection? Surely it is in your best interest to serve the One True God.

Do not treat the word 'all' as not being 'all' when the Quran uses the word 'all' in 4:78 (all is from God)
Do not treat the word 'anything' as not being 'anything' when the Quran uses the word 'anything in 81:29 (you cannot will anything except if God also Wills...)

You are trying to force your interpretation at the cost of being contradictory. Be open minded to reason and closed minded to contradictions and perhaps God Will Guide you.


nimnimak_11

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Re: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2020, 01:07:14 PM »
سلم salam/peace علىك alayka/upon you (sing.)

2:36 فازلهما so made them slip dual الشىطن the devil ...
 فاخرجهما so evicts them dual مما from what كانا were dual

7:19 وىادم and O Adam اسكن settles انت thou وزوجك and spouse your الجنه the garden
 فكلا so eat dual من from حىث anyplace شىتما like you dual
 ولا and not تقربا thou approach dual هذه this الشجره the tree
 فتكونا so being dual من from/of الظلمىن the wrongdoers

7:20 فوسوس so whisper لهما for them dual الشىطن the devil
 لىبدى to make apparent/manifest لهما to them dual
 ما what وورى concealed عنهما about them dual
 من of سوتهما shame theirs dual
 وقال and said ما not نهكما prohibit you dual
 ربكما lord yours dual عن about هذه this الشجره the tree
 الا except ان that تكونا thou become dual ملكىن controllers two
 او or تكونا thou become dual من from الخلدىن the eternally living

7:21 وقاسمهما and swore them dual
 انى indeed I لكما for you dual لمن surely among الناصحىن the sincere advisers

7:22 فدلهما so guile them dual بغرور in/by deception
 فلما so to what (when) ذاقا taste dual الشجره the tree
 بدت apparent لهما for them dual سوتهما shame theirs dual
 وطفقا and began dual ىخصفن fasten dual علىهما upon them dual من from ورق leaf الجنه the garden
 وناداهما and call them dual ربهما lord theirs dual
 الم did not انهكما I prohibit dual عن about تلكما those what الشجره the tree
 واقل and I say لكما for you dual ان indeed الشىطن the devil لكما for you dual عدو enemy مبىن clear

7:23 قلا said dual ربنا lord ours ظلمنا wrong we of انفسنا souls ours

20:116 واذ wa-idh/and when (i.e. past event) قلنا said we of للملىكه to the controllers …

20:117 فقلنا so said we of ىادم O Adam ان indeed هذا this عدو enemy لك to you ولزوجك and to spouse your
 فلا so not ىخرجنكما evicted be you dual من from الجنه the garden فتشقى so thou agonize

20:121 فاكلا so ate dual منها from it …


peace, yes cross reference and context …

4:74 ... ىقتل fighted فى in سبىل pathway الله the god...
4:77 ... فلما so to what (when) كتب written/decree علىهم upon them القتال the battle
 تولوا turn they of الا except قلىلا little of منهم from/among them...

4:78 اىنما wherever of تكونوا thou be ye of ىدرككم overtaken you (pl.) الموت the death
 ولو and in case كنتم be you فى in بروج constructs (towers) مشىده lofty
 وان and if تصبهم it afflict them حسنه best/goodness
 ىقولوا speaketh they of هذه this من from عند near/with الله the god
 وان and if تصبهم it afflict them سىىه evil/calamity
 ىقولوا speaketh they of هذه this من from عندك near/with you (i.e. the messenger)
 قل say كل each (goodness or calamity theirs) من from عند near/with الله the god
 فمال so what is هولا those القوم the folk لا not ىكادون neared being ىفقهون understanding حدىثا narration of

4:79 ما what اصابك hits/befalls you (sing.) من of حسنه best/goodness فمن so from الله the god
 وما and what اصابك hits you (sing.) من from سىىه evil/calamity فمن so from نفسك soul your (sing.)
 وارسلنك and sent we you (sing.) للناس to the people رسولا messenger of
 وكفى and enough بالله in the god شهىدا witness of


https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/78?handschrift=73



Peace Noon

I see your point with Quran's usage of dual. I cannot accept that God would punish someone who has not disobeyed God because such a thing is clearly paradoxical. So either the dual is signified to highlight all humans and their partners, or, some other explanation must be given that takes into account our disobedience towards God, so as to account for why we did not start off by being in paradise (like Adam and his partner started off).

jkhan

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Re: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2020, 04:28:29 AM »
Peace brother

If I suffer harm, then God Harmed me because none can will anything except if God also Wills. This is objectively good if and only if I deserve to be harmed because it's good/perfection for evil people to suffer. God Harms/Punishes evil people and Rewards good people. Thus, do you see that all is from God?. All of this is good/perfect because all people are getting what they deserve. Do you agree so far?

By definition, x cannot be evil without choosing to be evil. x cannot be evil without choosing to reject God (the wholly innocent of evil) in favour of that which is not wholly innocent of evil (money, himself, his family, statues, status amongst people as opposed to status with God etc.). This decision making or commitment that x makes, is from himself. The choice is x's. This is evil on x's part. If God did not punish x for this, then God would be doing unjustly. So, God Punishes x because it's a good thing to punish x. x is punished because he is evil. x being evil is from himself. His suffering is because he chose to be evil. He served committed to other than God. God did perfectly (wholly innocent of evil). x did imperfectly (with evil intent or lack of passion/appreciation for God). The evil was from x, the good was from God. Any event that happens, or anything that befalls anyone, is from God. What x chooses, x chooses. x is responsible. If x is evil, then this is from himself. It is not from God. His suffering and punishment is from God. Do you see now that the woman that is raped, is being punished by God? Do you see that her being raped is perfection/good and this good is from God (because all is from God and none can will anything except if God also Wills). But, her being worthy of being raped, is from herself. The rapist being worthy of going to Hell (if he deserves it), is from himself.

Tell me how else you can interpret the 'all' in 4:78 and the 'anything' in 81:29 without being contradictory if you are able.
Of course!

God is responsible for God/Existence Being Perfect because God Is Perfect. If the victim did not deserve to be harmed, then God should not have Willed for the rapist to rape her. The rapist cannot will anything except if God also Wills (unless of course you completely reject 81:29 as well as reject God/Existence Being Perfect...which is what you seem to be doing).

God could have Willed the rapist to be distracted or suffer amnesia before his evil desires or the disease in his heart (which is probably a product of eating from the tree) kicked in. God could have crippled the rapist before he had the chance to harm the woman, thereby punishing the rapist's evil and not punishing the woman. Amnesia does not cure the disease. Amnesia does not lead to being purified by God.

How can you possibly view God as Perfect if you believe that God allows injustice (innocent people to suffer or evil people to be rewarded all things considered)? So then, the woman who is raped, or the child who gets cancer, or the man who is oppressed, did they deserve what happened to them or not? Is God/Existence truly Perfect or not? What do you want to serve? What is more worthy of worship? A perfect existence or an imperfect one? Pretend/impure/imperfect perfection or true perfection? Surely it is in your best interest to serve the One True God.

Do not treat the word 'all' as not being 'all' when the Quran uses the word 'all' in 4:78 (all is from God)
Do not treat the word 'anything' as not being 'anything' when the Quran uses the word 'anything in 81:29 (you cannot will anything except if God also Wills...)

You are trying to force your interpretation at the cost of being contradictory. Be open minded to reason and closed minded to contradictions and perhaps God Will Guide you.
Peace bro..

I am afraid you are not getting my explanation or else you are are skipping the chore of what I am saying.. Whatever may be.. God knows..

81:29 and 4:78 you have taken  far away from context...

Further... In 81:29 I don't  see a word for ANYTHING as you claim.. If there is let me know which word is ANYTHING..

4:78 it is not ALL (KULLU) But It means EACH.. with the context of the verses EACH befits perfectly.. That's is to say (EACH is from Allah) two factors mentioned.. Good and bad.. "EACH good and bad are fallen to them in the incident they are involved relevant to context of the verses are from God.. Mercy,  guidance,  victory,  defeat, wealth, loss of wealth, help of Allah etc are from Allah.. their WILL can't achieve such things..
My repeating doesn't work for you.. You figure it out.. Don't try to bridge our Will and God's preference... If Allah want give something to you,  no one can stop it from giving even How much they WILL,  If Allah doesnt want to give something even how much others WILL  they won't be able to give it... Thats the difference between our Will and God's... But we are independent in willing... Will whatever you like... That's your our will.. But it happens it not GID knows...

nimnimak_11

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Re: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
« Reply #44 on: January 01, 2021, 06:03:48 AM »
81:29 and 4:78 you have taken  far away from context...
You think this is what I'm doing, I think this is what you're doing. God Knows the truth. Perhaps through discussion, God Will Show us if this is what we're both doing, or if this is what one of us is doing.
Quote
Further... In 81:29 I don't  see a word for ANYTHING as you claim.. If there is let me know which word is ANYTHING..
You are right. I apologise for my mistake. There is no 'anything' in that verse. The verse says:

You cannot will except that Wills God.

Which of the following two do you think 81:29 means:

1) You can sometimes will without God also Willing
2) You can never will except if God also Wills

Do you think 1 or 2 is correct? Or do you think everyone always wills independently of what God Wills?

ade_cool

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Re: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2021, 12:14:55 PM »
Salam Anoushirvan,

Salam ade_cool,

Maybe.

But:

2:185    The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who witness the month shall fast therein; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

6:105 It is thus that We dispatch the signs and that they may say: "You have studied," and We will make it clear for a people who know.



Etc.

According to https://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=byn#(2:185:9), you have 35 times the occurrence of bayyanu (بَيَّنُ) / to make clear, or 71 times the occurrence of bayyinat (بَيِّنَة) / clear signs, or 119 times the occurrence of the word mubīn (مُّبِين) / clear.

So the lexical field of clarity is overwhelming in Qur'an compared to the other few verses you have exhibited.

So either the few verses you have exhibited have a different meaning than the one you have in mind. Or they were written by someone else.

All of those verses are from God.

In fact, it is one of the miracles of Quran that it is clear and at the same time concealed.

Quote
And regarding verse 31.27, please also note that you don't need a full ocean of ink to write the entire Qur'an but only a small bottle one.

Sure ...to write the entire revealed 6236 verses we don't need that much ...but to elaborate His Kalimah we will need that much

This is also one of the miracles of Quran. Even though it only consists of 6236 verses, but to elaborate it, "years" of researches from multi disciplines are "needed". It has been revealed 1400 years ago and it is still the most up to date book which has not been exhausted, i.e. generations after us will continue to discover new things.

Quote
This is called concordism, i.e. trying to match ancient Scriptures with recent scientific discoveries.

Concordism happens when religion is losing ground to science and reason.

There are two possibilities here:
(1) The scripture does not make statement which recent science discovers but people are trying to "twist" it to look like it is in agreement
(2) The scripture does make statement which only recent science discovers.

For #1, I am strongly against it.

For #2, it is one of the miracles of Quran.

Quote
Jews and Christians did it a lot in 19th and 20th centuries. Some continue to do it in a lesser extent but most of them have acknowledged that it leads to nowhere and is just bad hermeneutics.

Muslims have started to do it with Qur'an in the 70s and beyond, probably to imitate evangelical Christians.
And by "Muslims", I include Qur'an-alone people and alike, since for that matter, they share the same mindset.

Buddhists and Hindus do concordism also.

It should be noted that when the Muslim civilization was at its apogee, never did ancient Muslims feel the need to read Qur'an in a concordist way as modern Muslims do. On the contrary, they felt that science or philosophy were going nowhere and that divine truth and knowledge were only in Qur'an.

This goes back whether it is #1 or #2.

Science and technology 1400 years ago are not the same as science and technology nowadays. So we cannot expect believers 1400 years ago to even think about something which their science has not reached (and it is not because they don't feel the need to read Quran with science in mind).

Quote
I said:

Well, I mean topics like these:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610829.0
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609253.0
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609757.0
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609226.0

All these imply some sort of answers like the Torah or Gospels we have are corrupted from their original versions.

In Genesis chapter 37, Joseph narrates his dreams to his brothers, while in Qur'an verse 12.5, his father asks him to not tell the dream to his brother.
Still, in Genesis chapter 37, Jacob does not understand the dream of Joseph. But in Qur'an, he does.

Then, why is their a divergence between Pentateuch and Qur'an there ?
Aren't both supposed to come from God ?

Tawrat and Injil are from God.

Quran is from God.

Since all the three are from God, all of them will have consistent message. It is as simple as that.

What if there are discrepancies? Then figure out which one is to be taken as source of truth.

Quote
If the story of Joseph in Qur'an comes from God but the one narrated in Pentateuch does not come from God, then where does the story of Joseph in Pentateuch actually come from ?

I mean, why was the original "true" story of Joseph, supposed to be identical to the one narrated in Qur'an, not preserved since centuries or millennia before Qur'an by Jews or Christians ?

Or why is that the canonical Gospels say that Jesus was crucified and Qur'an says Issa ben Mariam was not ?

To these, if you have a different answer than usual Muslim argument "Jews and Christians or scribes have corrupted their Scriptures given originally by God, and Qur'an has come to correct the false Bible", then I would be interested to know it.

I don't understand where you are going to. What is your proposed answer to those discrepancies?

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I said


The root cause of the problems in understanding Qur'an that I exposed above arises from the this specific belief: that Qur'an should be a text to speak of God, to reveal who is God, to call (especially polytheists) to pure monotheism and to correct mistakes made by previous monotheist people Jews and/or Christians.

This kind of (erroneous) belief has the clear advantage that you don't need any historical context for Qur'an: whatever is God, it is supposed to be the same in the past, in the present, in the future.
If He called to pure monotheism in the 7th CE, then He will do the same in the 21st CE, and since He did that with this "most perfect" Scripture we call "Qur'an", there is no reason for another Scripture in the 21st CE that would add nothing more than Qur'an, right ?

And by the way we don't really need science anyway, right ?
Because either science confirms Qur'an and then it's fine but fairly useless by itself unless it is apologetic.
Or it refutes Qur'an but then science is deluded, not Qur'an.


This is why Muslim belief, including Qur'an-alone belief and alike (God-alone and so on), has to make Qur'an void from historical context.
Or, alternatively, a context that reflects this belief. The asbab an-nuzul were clearly made, forged I would say, to reflect this belief that Qur'an was purposely made for calling to pure monotheism.


But the truth is that Qur'an was never written to call to pure monotheism, this is an erroneous reading.
Qur'an only calls to pure monotheism in a polemical way with its 7th CE adversaries.
It was customary for authors on those times to call their opponents idolaters, and Qur'an is not an exception in this view.

But it is a mistake and a misreading to read that what is at stake in Qur'an is monotheism.

What is at stake are the terms and conditions of salvation.

It is only because according to Jewish and Christian beliefs and Scriptures idolaters (whatever they meant by that) are doomed to damnation that ancient authors, including Qur'an, called their opponent "idolaters" or alike, even though those shared the same Scriptures.

Qur'an says the same as me by the way, read verse 2.113:
2:113    And the Jews say: "The Nazarenes have no basis," and the Nazarenes say: "The Jews have no basis," while they are both reciting the Book! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.

So in order to understand Qur'an, you need to understand first what is "salvation" in the preceding Scriptures, how Jews or Christian understood it, how they reflected upon it, and so on.

Salvation in the Scriptures and in the Jewish/Christian/Gnostic belief is much more than believing in God-alone according to Muslim understanding of Qur'an, and includes concepts like the Messiah, the signs of the coming of the Messiah, the end of times, the world to come, the height of the ordeal or trial, the destruction and restoration of the Jerusalem Temple, the entry of the pagan nations into the Alliance with God, etc.

You don't plainly understand Qur'an until you properly understand salvation in the previous Scriptures and Qur'an.

Believers who uphold Tawrat and Injil will be able to recognize that Quran is from God.

[2:2] That is the book, which is without doubt—a guide for the righteous.
[2:3] The ones who believe in the unseen, and hold the Connection, and from Our provisions to them they spend.
[2:4] And the ones who believe in what was sent down to you, and what was sent down before you, and regarding the Hereafter they are  certain.


For example:

[6:139] And they said: “What is in the bellies of these livestock is exclusive for our males and forbidden for our wives, and if comes  out dead, then they will be partners in it.” God will recompense  them for what they describe. He is Wise, Knowledgeable.
[6:140] Losers are those who have killed their children foolishly, without knowledge, and they forbade what God had granted them by  lying about God. They have strayed and they were not guided.
[6:141] And He is the One who initiated gardens; both trellised and untrellised; and palm trees, and plants, all with different taste;  and olives and pomegranates, comparable and not comparable.  Eat from its fruit when it blossoms and give its due on the day of  its harvest; and do not waste. He does not like the wasteful.
[6:142] And from the livestock are those for burden, and also for clothing. Eat from what God has provided you and do not follow the  footsteps of the devil; he is to you a clear enemy.
[6:143] Eight, in pairs: from the sheep two, and from the goats two. Say: “Is it the two males that He forbade or the two females, or what the  wombs of the two females bore? Inform me if you are truthful!”
[6:144] And from the camels two, and from the cattle two. Say: “Is it the two males that He forbade or the two females, or what the wombs  of the two females bore? Or were you witnesses when God ordered  you with this?” Who is more wicked than he who invents lies  about God to misguide the people without knowledge. God does  not guide the wicked people.
[6:145] Say: “I do not find in what is inspired to me to be forbidden for any eater to eat, except: that it be already dead, or running blood,  or the meat of pig—for it is foul—or what has become vile by  being sacrificed to other than God.” But whoever is forced to,  without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is  Forgiving, Merciful.


Another example:

[61:6] And when Jesus, son of Mary, said: “O children of Israel, I am a messenger of God to you, affirming what is between my hands of  the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after  me whose name will be ‘most acclaimed.’” But when he showed  them the clear proofs, they said: “This is clearly magic.”

Another example:

[17:2] And We gave Moses the Book and We made it a guidance for the Children of Israel: “Do not believe in any besides Me.”
[17:3] The progeny of those whom We carried with Noah, he was a thankful servant.
[17:4] And We decreed to the Children of Israel in the Book, that you will make corruption twice on the earth, and that you will become  very high and mighty.


Of course, not everyone has Tawrat or Injil background and people who don't have Tawrat or Injil background are also able to recognize that Quran is from God.

tlihawa

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Re: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2021, 08:04:34 AM »

What do you think? Are Yousuf brothers innocent in this story since Yousuf's vision should come true ultimately so they were part and parcel of it?.

Salaam Jkhan,
Regarding his brothers,

12:92 Yusuf said, “There is no blame on you today. May Allah forgive you! He is the Most Merciful of the merciful!

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Does it teach us that whatever happens in our life we need to be patient until God make a way out?

Sure, this is what I believe until today.

2:45 And seek help through patience and salat . Indeed, it is a burden except for the humble.

When we have hard time, do what we have to do in the right way (salat- commitment to do it right, based on God teaching) and be patience.

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Coz.. Who is responsible for Yakub, Yousuf's father's tears and worries for years after years? Is it God or Yousuf brothers? Somehow, Yousuf's father spent bulk of his life thinking of his loving son so did Yousuf...
Or else that's part of Dream's fulfilment.. Or We need to tolerate certain things in life until God gives us happiness..?

It's not just about dream fulfilment, but the whole story has giving me better picture regarding the last day. Don't worry about what Yusuf's brother has done in the past, right or wrong. What they had done in the past is part of the plan that link the past and the future.

12:7 In Yusuf and his brothers are signs for those who seek...

First, let me show you passages from book of revelation, telling what will happen on the last day,

Revelation 21

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.


You can read the entire chapter to get the context of this city. But from these passages we know that the city has twelve gates and named as twelve sons of Yakub (Yusuf and his brothers).

From another chapter we know that when the time comes only 144.000 will be sealed by the angel, based on the tribes of the children of Israel (minus tribe of Dan).

Revelation 7

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand


So I know that they will enter the city based on their tribes, their lineage.

Let's get back to the Quran, when Yakub ordered his sons to enter the city,

12:67 He then instructed ˹them˺, “O my sons! Do not enter ˹the city˺ all through one gate, but through separate gates. I cannot help you against ˹what is destined by˺ Allah in the least. It is only Allah Who decides. In Him I put my trust. And in Him let the faithful put their trust.”

12:68 Then when they entered as their father had instructed them, this did not help them against ˹the Will of˺ Allah whatsoever. It was just a desire in Yakub’s heart which he satisfied. He was truly blessed with ˹great˺ knowledge because of what We had taught him, but most people have no knowledge.


So this is a knowledge Allah had taught Yakub regarding the last day, as mentioned in Book of Revelation, long before the Book of Revelation itself was revealed.

It was just a desire in Yakub's heart to see his descendant walk through the gates according to their names/tribes name. But Yakub also realized there's no guarantee by doing that. It always depends on their deeds. Allah will decide.

To me, the whole Yusuf stories taught me a lot of thing, such as:
- be patience with the God's plan
- sometime you need an 'external help' like a prison when you cannot avoid the temptation of woman, nowadays it's not necessary a prison, but maybe you will get unsatisfied permanent transfer in your job, move to another city, when you have affair with someone in your office or on your neighborhood.


Peace