Author Topic: Losing Faith  (Read 2574 times)

Emre_1974tr

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 203
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2020, 09:29:39 AM »
I don't mean to be difficult, but the verses in the Quran does not speak to the authenticity of the Quran.

Secondly, I'm very well versed in the archaeological evidence. While fragments have been found, the oldest copy that's anywhere near complete is well over a century after the prophets passing.
Absolutely 100%. Because then its about the contents of the Quran, rather then the questions of authenticity of the book itself.

in multiple civil wars. We on these forums apply a very strict policy when it comes to Hadiths, but somehow over look that for the Quran.

No. You are 100% wrong.,

Both verses and archaeological evidence say that the Qur'an was made into a book while the prophet was alive.

https://sanamushafi.com/kuran-hz-muhammedin-vefatindan-sonra-mi-kitap-haline-getirildi/



ade_cool

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 184
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2020, 06:38:31 PM »
Absolutely 100%.


Wakas' question was not directed to me but let me give my view ...

In my view, it is not absolutely 100% ...because another question will arise: how do we verify that the stamp on the cover is authentic?

Quote
Because then its about the contents of the Quran, rather then the questions of authenticity of the book itself.

Exactly brother ...it is the content itself that indicates the book is from God ...not because the book is stamped on the cover "it is from messenger of God" ...we have sahih hadith books "stamped" as from messenger of God but does the content indicate it is representative as teaching of messenger of God?

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1266
  • Karma +4/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2020, 07:19:10 PM »
Hi All,

I’m Muslim and 30 years old but have been struggling with belief for a decade or.

Not showing off, but just providing context. I’m a highly educated PHD student who now works in a profession that requires perfect evidence and application of judgment based on facts.

I haven’t ever drank, or gambled, or done drugs and to be honest at the age I am now, don’t think I want to. This isn’t about perks or restrictions, it’s a simple question of do I believe it any more.

My sticking points:

1. The Quran: I’m not going to go into inconsistencies or paradoxes or questionable laws. The point is why. Why does God expect a reasonable person to put 100% faith into a book written 1400 years ago. There’s no evidence of the original Quran. We ourselves believe the book was written years after the prophet died!

The oldest *complete* Quran copy in the world is over a 100 years after the prophets death. That’s what God wants us to live our lives by in 2020? An individual needs to live their life fully by a text written a century after the prophets death, somewhere in Saudi Arabia, with no evidence of who wrote and whether it’s even the same as what was given to the prophet?

2. Question of Evil: I understand this is a test. I understand it’s suppose to be difficult, and there needs to be challenges. But why the evil. And I’m not talking about killers. I’m talking about evil that is so bad, you can’t read it without crying. Individuals who mutilate and torture and rape children for months. Bringing them to the brink of death but not quite so they could continue to torture themEvil that is so bad, almost the whole world could never even think of it.

But who thought of it? God. He created everything. He thought about that torture and rape and mutilations of children countless times. He could’ve easily just made the thousands of kids over the centuries die in a reasonable war. Same test, same misery. But no. The most unspeakable of things done to those kids. Why? And we’re suppose to believe this God is the most forgiving and most loving and most good and all that? 99.9999% of humans are more good because they didn’t think and make up all those pure evil things.



I’m not trying to be difficult. I just want answers, and also how a billion people overlook the above points.

Peace...
Two points..
1... Quran but not reliable
2... Existence of evil...

Based on above you are about to lose faith.. Or rather your heading "losing faith" but not Lost faith totally otherwise you won't still anticipate answers from others for the last 10 years... Will you?

Okay.. If Quran is inconsistent and wrong then there could be no God coz if the book is inconsistent then the author cannot be God the Creator..
Once you are not satisfied with your first point you can't blame for the evil which exist on the earth to God... Coz God doesn't exist so the creator of evil is human itself...

Suppose if you LOST Faith totally in God and His book, then on what you believe? And what for? In case if you don't believe in anything then you become an atheist literally ...  So you will need to prove the existence of the earth and heavens without a creator involved...

Suppose No God is your final decision then still question yourself why evil do exist..   Who is responsible for it.. Why you call it evil in a world which has no God no hereafter no punishment .? Why it is evil while evil can be a good strategy to overcome weak people who keep good ethics in this earth for no reason...

What if there is no inconsistencies in Quran but you failed to grasp it?

What if evil is an individual act in this free Earth on which human beings are living?

One day if you lost faith by and large(i wish you won't), there must be a way of life for you.. Will you ever find answers to your long felt questions  without God in your life.?

blitz999

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2020, 02:07:02 AM »
Peace...
Two points..
1... Quran but not reliable
2... Existence of evil...

Based on above you are about to lose faith.. Or rather your heading "losing faith" but not Lost faith totally otherwise you won't still anticipate answers from others for the last 10 years... Will you?

Okay.. If Quran is inconsistent and wrong then there could be no God coz if the book is inconsistent then the author cannot be God the Creator..
Once you are not satisfied with your first point you can't blame for the evil which exist on the earth to God... Coz God doesn't exist so the creator of evil is human itself...

Suppose if you LOST Faith totally in God and His book, then on what you believe? And what for? In case if you don't believe in anything then you become an atheist literally ...  So you will need to prove the existence of the earth and heavens without a creator involved...

Suppose No God is your final decision then still question yourself why evil do exist..   Who is responsible for it.. Why you call it evil in a world which has no God no hereafter no punishment .? Why it is evil while evil can be a good strategy to overcome weak people who keep good ethics in this earth for no reason...

What if there is no inconsistencies in Quran but you failed to grasp it?

What if evil is an individual act in this free Earth on which human beings are living?

One day if you lost faith by and large(i wish you won't), there must be a way of life for you.. Will you ever find answers to your long felt questions  without God in your life.?

I appreciate the response, and many others in this thread, but no ones really answered my questions.

'What else will you believe in etc' does not answer my question.

A few have mentioned that it's about the contents. But it can't be about that if the source of the book itself is in question. Remember the Quran is a way of life. It dictates your whole life. You trust it, believe in it with all your heart and know that it will guide you to God and Heaven.

...and yet the Quran we all follow based on current available evidence, shows some random human over a century later, wrote it. We don't know know why, we don't know where. We don't know which faction he was part of during the civil wars at the time. We don't even know if he excluded content. We just don't know.


What if evil is an individual act in this free Earth on which human beings are living? again, i appreciate the response, but this is a poor answer to the question. You're forgetting God in the Quran is all knowing, he knows all the past and all the future deeds of everyone. Secondly, God created everything. Including our free will, our thought patterns, everything.

So when I think of a genius idea to save the world. Its not my idea. God created it and put it in me. And the same applies for the most evil of ideas. God created those, not humans. We just carry them out.


good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5304
  • Karma +4/-1
Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2020, 04:00:59 AM »
Peace blitz999

You are absolutely right,only you can work out if the answer to your question is acceptable.
Nobody could answer all my questions when I was investigating/confused/seeking direction/... , I  was expecting a "eureka moment"  from someone, some kind of "without a doubt/physical/scientific/logical...proof"  to be obvious to my understanding/logic/intelligence...

Or this to happen,quote:
"So when I think of a genius idea to save the world. Its not my idea. God created it and put it in me. And the same applies for the most evil of ideas. God created those, not humans. We just carry them out."
i.e someone to have my answers created in them by GOD because they might have more knowledge about Qoran/scripture than I did!!!

Then I had to restart from scratch,like this:
Why am I even thinking like this? Why can t I seek my answers from the source of all answers? How do I become like those who have the answers/I am expecting the answers from?
Then it became obvious to me that I needed to research my own answers by myself, to satisfy my own capabilities/understanding.

So when things are not obvious to me (like 2+2=4)  I would have to double check all answers ,especially those in Qoran(so called GOD s answers) until I had no doubt or came to pause (this requires me to learn more) Or impossible to answer( I was asking the wrong questions/ FROM THE WRONG POINT OF VIEW /WARPED UNDERSTANDING)...etc.
My simple point here is that why don t you challenge the "original source? Only then one can say for sure no one has my answers.

Yes ,if GOD has all the attributes He claims to have,then surely GOD has all the answers. Otherwise GOD is lying.
Try that avenue directly as well   if you believe in GOD.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1266
  • Karma +4/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2020, 04:39:34 AM »
I appreciate the response, and many others in this thread, but no ones really answered my questions.

'What else will you believe in etc' does not answer my question.

A few have mentioned that it's about the contents. But it can't be about that if the source of the book itself is in question. Remember the Quran is a way of life. It dictates your whole life. You trust it, believe in it with all your heart and know that it will guide you to God and Heaven.

...and yet the Quran we all follow based on current available evidence, shows some random human over a century later, wrote it. We don't know know why, we don't know where. We don't know which faction he was part of during the civil wars at the time. We don't even know if he excluded content. We just don't know.


What if evil is an individual act in this free Earth on which human beings are living? again, i appreciate the response, but this is a poor answer to the question. You're forgetting God in the Quran is all knowing, he knows all the past and all the future deeds of everyone. Secondly, God created everything. Including our free will, our thought patterns, everything.

So when I think of a genius idea to save the world. Its not my idea. God created it and put it in me. And the same applies for the most evil of ideas. God created those, not humans. We just carry them out.

Peace everyone..

Look dear ...you didn't get what I wrote in its entirety.. You are picking bits and pieces of what I wrote and gave your reply.. Fine. No issues.. If you are harboring doubt in Quran consistently then best way is not to believe in it.. If you can't disbelive in it, then find the truth better than what makes you doubt...

I address here commonly for those who are in same situation as of this member.. If you have found discrepancies in Quran and you verified and convinced that it is in fact not from God, then best thing is to leave from Quran.... After convinced and verification why to hang on to an old book which has no proof that it is from God... isn't it? When you leave from Quran you have to deny the existence of God... If you can't deny the existence of God somehow then to what you will approach

But if you still feel that you didn't get certain matters in Quran but not doubting the authenticity of Quran better research on it... Like a true lawyer who knew his client is innocent but unfortunately all evidences are against him... So the lawyer shouldn't lose hope and work out as if he is not innocent ...  That's the approach we need to understand Quran.. First keep total faith in God and his existence then research whether Quran is from God or not...

That's my way.. But keeping the doubt to augment day by day and being in the brink of disbelief no one will ever find guidance from God.. That I experienced  personally...  All what I understood from QURAN is mere truth being neutral but not in edge of disbelief...  But with hope of light from darkness...

4:137 "Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way."

Allah knows about all hearts...  Keep working dude.. If God is with you,  He may clarify what you are unable to grasp...

I would like to add this statement as well...

Book is old or new is not the issue for those who doubt and disbelief in certain matters of the book... But their unfortunate situation.. I mean misguidance from God... Why...  Even such live in the very presence of the true Messenger of Quran they may not believe in all of the message but part of it.. Rest they may claim he fabricated them..
Thus exposing their destiny...


ade_cool

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 184
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2020, 09:08:54 AM »
IA few have mentioned that it's about the contents. But it can't be about that if the source of the book itself is in question.

You disagree that the content is the indicator that the book is from God. What do you suggest then? A stamp on the book's cover saying "from messenger of God"?


Quote
Remember the Quran is a way of life. It dictates your whole life. You trust it, believe in it with all your heart and know that it will guide you to God and Heaven.

...and yet the Quran we all follow based on current available evidence, shows some random human over a century later, wrote it. We don't know know why, we don't know where. We don't know which faction he was part of during the civil wars at the time. We don't even know if he excluded content. We just don't know.

The idea that Quran was compiled only after the demise of the prophet is from sahih hadith books. Sahih hadith books want us to believe that:
- Prophet Muhammad himself didn't care about the preservation of Quran and never put effort to compile it
- It never occured to prophet Muhammad the importance of compiling Quran into book form (even though God revealed to the prophet that among him are hypocrites)
- Umar was the first to realize it is extremely important to compile Quran after seeing many reciters died in a battle
- The verses were scattered here and there (from the leafless stalks of the date-palm tree and from the pieces of leather and hides and from the stones, and from the chests of men) during compilation.

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/93/53

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

Abu Bakr sent for me owing to the large number of casualties in the battle of Al-Yamama, while `Umar was sitting with him. Abu Bakr said (to me), `Umar has come to my and said, 'A great number of Qaris of the Holy Qur'an were killed on the day of the battle of Al-Yamama, and I am afraid that the casualties among the Qaris of the Qur'an may increase on other battle-fields whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I consider it advisable that you (Abu Bakr) should have the Qur'an collected.' I said, 'How dare I do something which Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) did not do?' `Umar said, By Allah, it is something beneficial.' `Umar kept on pressing me for that till Allah opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chest of `Umar and I had in that matter, the same opinion as `Umar had." Abu Bakr then said to me (Zaid), "You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Messenger (ﷺ). So you should search for the fragmentary scripts of the Qur'an and collect it (in one Book)." Zaid further said: By Allah, if Abu Bakr had ordered me to shift a mountain among the mountains from one place to another it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said (to `Umar and Abu Bakr), "How can you do something which Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) did not do?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is something beneficial." Zaid added: So he (Abu Bakr) kept on pressing me for that until Allah opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and `Umar, and I had in that matter, the same opinion as theirs. So I started compiling the Qur'an by collecting it from the leafless stalks of the date-palm tree and from the pieces of leather and hides and from the stones, and from the chests of men (who had memorized the Qur'an). I found the last verses of Sirat-at-Tauba: ("Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves--' (9.128-129) ) from Khuza`ima or Abi Khuza`ima and I added to it the rest of the Sura. The manuscripts of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him. Then it remained with `Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and then with Hafsa bint `Umar.


Furthermore, sahih hadith books want to cast doubt regarding authenticity of Quran. As an example, according to sahih hadith books, stoning verses were revealed. Yet there is no such verses in Quran. If stoning verses can be missed out during compilation, other verses can be missed out as well! Another example, suckling verses were missing from compilation.

https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/17/12

'Umar bin Al-Khattab said:
"Verily Allah sent Muhammad (ﷺ) with the truth, and he revealed the Book to him. Among what was revealed to him was the Ayah of stoning. So the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) stoned, and we stoned after him. I fear that time will pass over the people such that someone will say 'We do not see stoning in the Book of Allah.' They will be misguided by leaving an obligation which Allah revealed. Indeed stoning is the retribution for the adulterer if he was married and the evidence has been established, or due to pregnancy, or confession."


https://sunnah.com/muslim/17/31

'Amra reported that she heard 'A'isha (Allah he pleased with her) discussing fosterage which (makes marriage) unlawful; and she ('A'isha) said:

There was revealed in the Holy Qur'an ten clear sucklings, and then five clear (sucklings).

spodacus

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 101
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2020, 10:39:59 AM »
Salam blitz,

My humble opinion is to take a step back from determining authenticity of Quran and address your potential lack of faith that God even exists. It appears you are slowly progressing towards that a God could not possibly exist since why would He allow evil to be created and persist? That is me reading between the lines of your post. I also happen to come from a scientific background, I teach graduate level & phD course in electromagnetics. My studies in the sciences has confirmed for me that God does definitely exist (thanks to Him for this). Studying the complexity and perfect balance of the natural world indicates a designer and for me is God's signature to our generation. Outside of the sciences, I have also studied the scriptures of all the major religions and have found the Quran to be the clearest and consistent. God put me on that path, and gave me patience and motivation to go through so many texts until He showed me the truth in the Quran.

Based on my personal journey, I found that the guidance does not come from the book, but from your own willingness to accept God first, become a positive force in the world (charitable, positive towards life, not always going after worldly desires but searching for the truth, living modestly not craving money, treating those around you fairly, not getting angry when things go wrong in life, etc.). Then once you have this first, the search for more details in the scriptures can begin. The reality is that if you have doubt in God to begin with, you won't get a satisfactory answer on if Quran is preserved, why God doesn't just send down another book for our time rather than 1400 year old book, etc.

Also to address the existence of evil, particularly towards such innocent children. I put the blame on the people who commit the crime and the society that allow such criminal to thrive. God gave the human the freedom to choose good or evil deeds. That is the reality of the world we live in. Whether you think it was a good idea or bad idea to give us that choice, it doesnt matter, we do not have the power to change that decision. The angels actually did question God why He would give humans this freedom. God said "I know what you do not know." Whether you are satisfied with that answer or not it is up to you. The angels accepted and prostrated. Shaitan did not.

God does address these criminals and says they should be put to death. So why is our society set up to allow these criminals to hide and thrive? That is our blame as a society that we don't stand up for these children.

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11241
  • Karma +14/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2020, 11:47:55 AM »
These questions remain unanswered:
Wow, 100% you say? Let's see if it stands up to scrutiny: how can you prove that no-one tampered with it? e.g. just because it was dated to his time how do you prove he wrote it? how do you prove that the stamp/signature was indeed from the prophet? what if someone snuck into the prophet's house at night and added or deleted a verse? what if after the prophet's passing the person entrusted with it tampered with it? what if one page got wet and the person rewrote it and made a mistake with one word? etc etc

Q2:

My answer to this question is to do with logic and free choice. For example if pain or bad things never happened the world would not make sense. For example, try and imagine a world in which nothing bad happened. No-one could say anything bad to you, no-one could punch you, a plane could never fall out of the sky, no-one was able to drown in water, no volcano ever erupted etc etc. You get the idea. Quite simply the world wouldn't work, it wouldn't make sense.
Also, pain caused by humans is a bit like blaming a knife manufacturer for causing pain because they made a knife that you can buy in the shops. That knife could be used for good, to chop up vegetables so you can make a soup to feed your family, or it could be used to stab someone. How you use this freedom of choice is down to you. 
Lastly, the argument of "God allows bad things to happen" already assumes God exists. And you're right it would be a problem IF God did not correct this situation. However, we are taught in Quran, God does correct this on the day of judgement/requital when our deeds are repaid. There is no injustice when the story is completed.

If I may try an analogy... if you were an observer watching me standing over two hungry children fighting over a piece of bread, and I stopped them and took the piece of bread from them and you paused the scene right there and began to draw conclusions on what happened and if it was fair or not, you might think I took the bread for myself (i.e. something unfair) or something else... however, if you unpaused it and let the story complete, you may see me break the bread into two equal portions and return it to the children, each with their own share.
Thus, if we go back to the original point, you are making your judgement on God as being unfair only halfway through the story. As I said before, if God exists, like your question assumes, we should remember that this life is only part of the story, and there will be no injustice once the story is complete.

That's my take on it.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5304
  • Karma +4/-1
Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2020, 12:35:38 PM »
Peace spodacus.
I hope you do not mind me quoting you as I find what you said a while back in 2016 appropriate here( and of course a beautiful advice to all of us):

" !I'm sure others will give you a philosophical perspective on what you should do or focus on. My advice is to take your fear and doubts and turn them into physical actions.

Every time you have any sort of fear (Hell, God, Life, Death):
* Call your parents, siblings, relatives and ask them how they are doing and if they need any help with anything.
* Volunteer at a homeless shelter
* Donate money/goods to charity of your choice
* Any positive action towards the betterment of others

And specifically say you are doing these actions for your own sake and to come closer to Allah. Even if you don't believe it at first, what does it hurt? You are still doing something positive.

My own experience was that when you have doubts about Allah they can be alleviated indirectly by doing good things. Doing those good things makes you a better person and opens your heart up. When the heart is open, Allah's message might come through.

Worth a shot  :)"

 Exactly what I am finding Qoran s contents are advising me to do. Glad I am in the process of pondering the contents of Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/