Author Topic: Losing Faith  (Read 2581 times)

blitz999

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Losing Faith
« on: October 27, 2020, 09:37:41 AM »
Hi All,

I’m Muslim and 30 years old but have been struggling with belief for a decade or.

Not showing off, but just providing context. I’m a highly educated PHD student who now works in a profession that requires perfect evidence and application of judgment based on facts.

I haven’t ever drank, or gambled, or done drugs and to be honest at the age I am now, don’t think I want to. This isn’t about perks or restrictions, it’s a simple question of do I believe it any more.

My sticking points:

1. The Quran: I’m not going to go into inconsistencies or paradoxes or questionable laws. The point is why. Why does God expect a reasonable person to put 100% faith into a book written 1400 years ago. There’s no evidence of the original Quran. We ourselves believe the book was written years after the prophet died!

The oldest *complete* Quran copy in the world is over a 100 years after the prophets death. That’s what God wants us to live our lives by in 2020? An individual needs to live their life fully by a text written a century after the prophets death, somewhere in Saudi Arabia, with no evidence of who wrote and whether it’s even the same as what was given to the prophet?

2. Question of Evil: I understand this is a test. I understand it’s suppose to be difficult, and there needs to be challenges. But why the evil. And I’m not talking about killers. I’m talking about evil that is so bad, you can’t read it without crying. Individuals who mutilate and torture and rape children for months. Bringing them to the brink of death but not quite so they could continue to torture themEvil that is so bad, almost the whole world could never even think of it.

But who thought of it? God. He created everything. He thought about that torture and rape and mutilations of children countless times. He could’ve easily just made the thousands of kids over the centuries die in a reasonable war. Same test, same misery. But no. The most unspeakable of things done to those kids. Why? And we’re suppose to believe this God is the most forgiving and most loving and most good and all that? 99.9999% of humans are more good because they didn’t think and make up all those pure evil things.



I’m not trying to be difficult. I just want answers, and also how a billion people overlook the above points.

good logic

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2020, 12:07:10 PM »
Peace blitz999.

Why not tackle just the first point. You seem "clever" enough-PHD- to  study/ponder/dissect its contents by yourself.
If you have done so, what is the problem with Qoran?
If you found it inconsistent , contradictory and old/irrelevant for today, then you do not have to take any notice ,why complicate your life with it?
If you are not sure yet or you have not pondered /analysed its contents ,then just ignore everything about "Islam" that you are familiar with and start from scratch to see if by pondering Qoran you may get some answers  to your queries or not.

Only your own study and understanding of Qoran s contents will be able to help you, because you need to check it (And what others say about it) regardless.

You have to try and solve your problem by yourself because you have Qoran available to you and you are well educated to have a deep look at its contents.

One can only  be Muslim if they came to a sound conclusion it is the right thing to be.  The doubts and issues must be solved.
Best of luck to you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

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Wakas

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2020, 01:31:32 PM »
peace,

Before I give you my take on those questions can you clarify if you are familiar with the information in this article?

https://www.free-minds.org/mumins

And if so, what is your take on it?
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

blitz999

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2020, 03:13:31 PM »
Peace blitz999.

Why not tackle just the first point. You seem "clever" enough-PHD- to  study/ponder/dissect its contents by yourself.
If you have done so, what is the problem with Qoran?
If you found it inconsistent , contradictory and old/irrelevant for today, then you do not have to take any notice ,why complicate your life with it?
If you are not sure yet or you have not pondered /analysed its contents ,then just ignore everything about "Islam" that you are familiar with and start from scratch to see if by pondering Qoran you may get some answers  to your queries or not.

Only your own study and understanding of Qoran s contents will be able to help you, because you need to check it (And what others say about it) regardless.

You have to try and solve your problem by yourself because you have Qoran available to you and you are well educated to have a deep look at its contents.

One can only  be Muslim if they came to a sound conclusion it is the right thing to be.  The doubts and issues must be solved.
Best of luck to you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
I appreciate the response, but reading the Quran won't answer the questions raised in my first point. The Quran saying 'this book is the word of God and not one word will ever be changed' doesn't change the fact that we don't know how wrote it, when they wrote it, and whether its even the same as what was passed down to the prophet. These are just facts right. We all accept it.

Applying any sort of critical thinking means how can you then rely on the Quran.

blitz999

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2020, 03:17:08 PM »
peace,

Before I give you my take on those questions can you clarify if you are familiar with the information in this article?

https://www.free-minds.org/mumins

And if so, what is your take on it?
Really interesting read. Thank you for sharing.

I definitely believe I'm in the 'believer' column. Regardless of what i think of the Quran and Hadiths etc there is just an innate belief in me that there is a God. That there is an afterlife, and we will all answer for our good and bad deeds.

Emre_1974tr

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2020, 03:34:53 PM »
Both verses and archaeological evidence say that the Qur'an was made into a book while the prophet was alive.

https://sanamushafi.com/kuran-hz-muhammedin-vefatindan-sonra-mi-kitap-haline-getirildi/

Wakas

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2020, 01:04:12 AM »
I definitely believe I'm in the 'believer' column

Interesting. I would have thought you would have classed yourself as a "muslim" or in between "muslim/mumin", because "mumin" is the highest level, i.e. conviction/trust in God and scripture/quran.

In any case, onto your questions, one by one:

1) It's a good question. Let's say there was a complete carbon-dated Quran dating back to prophet Muhammad's time. In fact let's say it even had a signature/stamp claiming to be from prophet Muhammad on the cover.
Would this prove it was the original (nothing had been added/deleted) penned by the prophet himself (or under his personal supervision)?

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

blitz999

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2020, 03:39:33 AM »
Both verses and archaeological evidence say that the Qur'an was made into a book while the prophet was alive.

https://sanamushafi.com/kuran-hz-muhammedin-vefatindan-sonra-mi-kitap-haline-getirildi/
I don't mean to be difficult, but the verses in the Quran does not speak to the authenticity of the Quran.

Secondly, I'm very well versed in the archaeological evidence. While fragments have been found, the oldest copy that's anywhere near complete is well over a century after the prophets passing.

Interesting. I would have thought you would have classed yourself as a "muslim" or in between "muslim/mumin", because "mumin" is the highest level, i.e. conviction/trust in God and scripture/quran.

In any case, onto your questions, one by one:

1) It's a good question. Let's say there was a complete carbon-dated Quran dating back to prophet Muhammad's time. In fact let's say it even had a signature/stamp claiming to be from prophet Muhammad on the cover.
Would this prove it was the original (nothing had been added/deleted) penned by the prophet himself (or under his personal supervision)?
Absolutely 100%. Because then its about the contents of the Quran, rather then the questions of authenticity of the book itself.

But thats a moot point, because the argument can be applied to Bible/Torah/etc. What if we find something that is dated to Moses or Jesus time and signed etc. We currently haven't found anything for any of the holy books.

So it comes back to the same question. Why should I or you be following a book that's been written a century after the prophets death based on current evidence. Written at a time when the Muslim people of the empire were engaged in multiple civil wars. We on these forums apply a very strict policy when it comes to Hadiths, but somehow over look that for the Quran.

good logic

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2020, 05:44:02 AM »
Peace blitz999.
 The fact is we have Qoran now, why would you not check its contents,regardless of "blur origin"?
Of course one can do that with bible or any other book that is supposedly  claimed to be not from humans.

Or are we to ignore the contents until we have a solid proof it is from GOD?
May be the proof is in the contents,why not?

Or have you a proof that it is not from GOD?

I think , according to what the book is saying,everyone who comes in contact with Qoran will have no choice but to ponder its contents. Unless they want to ignore it or follow others blindly , i.e  give it lip service.
That is  my experience  with it.
And of course one can make their own choice what to do with it as per freedom of choice.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Wakas

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2020, 06:22:55 AM »
Absolutely 100%.

Wow, 100% you say? Let's see if it stands up to scrutiny: how can you prove that no-one tampered with it? e.g. just because it was dated to his time how do you prove he wrote it? how do you prove that the stamp/signature was indeed from the prophet? what if someone snuck into the prophet's house at night and added or deleted a verse? what if after the prophet's passing the person entrusted with it tampered with it? what if one page got wet and the person rewrote it and made a mistake with one word? etc etc

In my view it is clearly not 100%. At most, it may make it more likely it is the original or close to the original but no matter which way you slice it it will come down to:

Quote
Because then its about the contents of the Quran, rather then the questions of authenticity of the book itself.

Exactly. You've hit the nail on the head. It's always been about the contents. Look at the Quran challenges, e.g. bring a chapter like it, evidence of its truth all around you [41:53], if it was other than God much variance/contradiction would be in it etc. It's about the contents. See here for more related info.

An interesting question to ask is if God is the author of Quran then the All-Knowing would surely know this issue of authenticity would come up, thus does Quran have ways to interrogate/answer this question? If it does then that is genius insight right there.

If a person finds something objectionable in it, then one is not obligated to follow it. To follow every single thing in it implies one has strong conviction/trust in it, hence the article I referenced. Many (including myself) may more accurately be termed muslimeen not mumineen, or muslimeen in an ongoing verification process towards becoming mumineen. And there is no shame in that, to die in islam is a great victory indeed. For example I am not aware of any prophet/messenger praying to be of the mumineen but plenty of examples referencing islam/muslim. Trust/iman is not something static, it is dynamic, ups and downs, Quran even says so.

You can let me know your thoughts before I move onto the next question.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org