Author Topic: God Aloners and Non-Religious Folks Never Built Civilization  (Read 929 times)

Neptin

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God Aloners and Non-Religious Folks Never Built Civilization
« on: August 04, 2020, 12:48:36 AM »
I wrote at length previously on the danger of Anti-religion and God alone mantra as trend among Qur'anists. Both trends push for inclusivity and shun organized community based religion.

The Qur'an opposes either trends. It prescribes laws and doctrines for Muslims that cannot be established without a closely knit community of individuals who believe in and abide by the Qur'an.

Even more, the Qur'an 5:48 states -

For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and if God had willed, He would have made you all one community, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.

Notice the passage reads, "for each of you we have made laws and a structure", not "for all of you we have made the law and structure". There is also recognition of multiple communities of faith, not one community.

Thus, the Qur'an calls for organized religion and approve division among men on religious line. This brings me to the title of this thread.

All civilizations past and present originate from some form of 'religious' community - a population of people sharing quite similar sacred tradition of god(s) and holy laws or doctrines. From the Sumerian civilization to the current American civillization.

Never in human history have God aloners and anti-religionists built a civilization. This is simply because they shun community building, the foundational step to actualizing a civilization. Their core message is to include everyone that is peaceful and monotheist regardless of their ideological principles, laws and dogmas.

The result of that is not a harmonious community, it is a mishmash of factions engaged in a perennial competition to assert the dominance of their own view at the expense of others.

The outcome of this is secession or dominance of one ideological faction over the rest, before any peaceful coexisting community can thrive and develop into a successful civilization over few generations.

Human beings are naturally & socially different, and thus divided. We can't all agree & to get along in spite of core ideological differences. And pushing people to permanently integrate and abandon their unpopular preferences all in the name of inclusivity, tolerance and diversity is the root of much of the world's problems like - Islamophobia, anti-semitism, racism, homophobia etc.

What is best is respect alternative viewpoint and allow for spaces - communities - within which such viewpoints may be expressed.

Peace. 

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jkhan

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Re: God Aloners and Non-Religious Folks Never Built Civilization
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2020, 02:32:08 AM »
I wrote at length previously on the danger of Anti-religion and God alone mantra as trend among Qur'anists. Both trends push for inclusivity and shun organized community based religion.

The Qur'an opposes either trends. It prescribes laws and doctrines for Muslims that cannot be established without a closely knit community of individuals who believe in and abide by the Qur'an.

Even more, the Qur'an 5:48 states -

For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and if God had willed, He would have made you all one community, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.

Notice the passage reads, "for each of you we have made laws and a structure", not "for all of you we have made the law and structure". There is also recognition of multiple communities of faith, not one community.

Thus, the Qur'an calls for organized religion and approve division among men on religious line. This brings me to the title of this thread.

All civilizations past and present originate from some form of 'religious' community - a population of people sharing quite similar sacred tradition of god(s) and holy laws or doctrines. From the Sumerian civilization to the current American civillization.

Never in human history have God aloners and anti-religionists built a civilization. This is simply because they shun community building, the foundational step to actualizing a civilization. Their core message is to include everyone that is peaceful and monotheist regardless of their ideological principles, laws and dogmas.

The result of that is not a harmonious community, it is a mishmash of factions engaged in a perennial competition to assert the dominance of their own view at the expense of others.

The outcome of this is secession or dominance of one ideological faction over the rest, before any peaceful coexisting community can thrive and develop into a successful civilization over few generations.

Human beings are naturally & socially different, and thus divided. We can't all agree & to get along in spite of core ideological differences. And pushing people to permanently integrate and abandon their unpopular preferences all in the name of inclusivity, tolerance and diversity is the root of much of the world's problems like - Islamophobia, anti-semitism, racism, homophobia etc.

What is best is respect alternative viewpoint and allow for spaces - communities - within which such viewpoints may be expressed.

Peace.
Peace brother Neptin.. ..

I don't agree with you within my understanding of Quran...

Would you explain the community of Luth then...  And the isolated approach of Luth while being a believer in One God.. And never did like the way his own community did behave so did the community never liked him.. He did live in total isolation within a community.. In the end he succeeded all alone with his family...

In my understanding, if we start with Nuh as one of the leading and foremost prophets,  He had a big community.. Obviously majority of the people were against One God.. But He didn't give up to pass the message to them being in the tiny minority.. He was threatened and intimidated.. Then no need to mention about those who followed him..
So they became genuinely a local cult or a group against majority's acceptance..
This was the pattern throughout the history..
But in 5:48 there were three major communities within a large community in which believers or  rather One God belief was in practice.. Jews Christians and Believers..

It is not must that a believer should go in line with majority to preserve something that he indeed no need to... While prophets/ messengers were living bringing up a community to certain extent is imperative.. If the number of people in the God alone side in majority..

Quran never opposes any trend of true believers.  If not possible to live with majority better leave them and go live in a peaceful place in isolation .. God's world is spacious.. It is not must to build a community to succeed in this life and for salvation ..
That's my take..
 Thank you

good logic

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Re: God Aloners and Non-Religious Folks Never Built Civilization
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2020, 05:00:17 AM »
Peace Neptin.

Qoran addresses the individual and holds the individual accountable.
When you say ,quote:
"Thus, the Qur'an calls for organized religion and approve division among men on religious line. This brings me to the title of this thread."

So it is ok to break up into sects?

This guy has a better solution-closer to what Qoran is asking- than religions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw08rBeTnYg

GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Neptin

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Re: God Aloners and Non-Religious Folks Never Built Civilization
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2020, 05:24:18 AM »
Peace brother Neptin.. ..

I don't agree with you within my understanding of Quran...

Would you explain the community of Luth then...  And the isolated approach of Luth while being a believer in One God.. And never did like the way his own community did behave so did the community never liked him.. He did live in total isolation within a community.. In the end he succeeded all alone with his family...

It seem you did not understand this post. By God alone, I mean the de-emphasis of Qur'an alone in favor of God alone as the message of Islam. And in this context, Lot was not a God aloner. Lot bore sacred traditions and doctrines.

Quote
In my understanding, if we start with Nuh as one of the leading and foremost prophets,  He had a big community.. Obviously majority of the people were against One God.. But He didn't give up to pass the message to them being in the tiny minority.. He was threatened and intimidated.. Then no need to mention about those who followed him..
So they became genuinely a local cult or a group against majority's acceptance..
This was the pattern throughout the history..

Again, going by definition of God alone in this context, it is not clear that Nuh was a God aloner. The common assumption that prophets before Moses merely called people to worship God alone, without any formal law or doctrine isn't reasonable.

Quote
But in 5:48 there were three major communities within a large community in which believers or rather One God belief was in practice.. Jews Christians and Believers..

Jews, Muslims, and Christians are not God alone communities. You can't belong in this community merely by admission of belief in one God, you have to believe in and abide by the religious texts and traditions.

Quote
It is not must that a believer should go in line with majority to preserve something that he indeed no need to... While prophets/ messengers were living bringing up a community to certain extent is imperative.. If the number of people in the God alone side in majority..

Quran never opposes any trend of true believers.  If not possible to live with majority better leave them and go live in a peaceful place in isolation .. God's world is spacious.. It is not must to build a community to succeed in this life and for salvation ..
That's my take..
 Thank you

Well, I didn't say it is mandatory to build a community. But it helps. Doctrines like marriage, hajj and congregational salat are more practical in presence of a community.

But even more importantly, communities mature into civilization. And this is the bone of contention here. God aloners never built civilization in human history. Because God aloners don't build communities. Civilizations are built from ideologically homogenous communities, as religious communities.
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Neptin

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Re: God Aloners and Non-Religious Folks Never Built Civilization
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2020, 06:09:28 AM »
Peace Neptin.

Qoran addresses the individual and holds the individual accountable.
When you say ,quote:
"Thus, the Qur'an calls for organized religion and approve division among men on religious line. This brings me to the title of this thread."

So it is ok to break up into sects?

How do you observe Hajj without a community? Also, do you know of any civilization that God aloners built in human history?

Quote
This guy has a better solution-closer to what Qoran is asking- than religions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw08rBeTnYg

Not a better solution. A more convenient solution. It is the same solution that has been applied for eons with petty improvement.

Come on. Why can't people be who they want to be - Qur'anist, Catholic, Jewish, White, Black, Brown? People should be free to be who they want and associate or dissociate from whom they want. Nothing is wrong with that.

But pushing people to integrate when they're clearly ideologically incompatible is a recipe for conflict.
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jkhan

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Re: God Aloners and Non-Religious Folks Never Built Civilization
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2020, 07:23:01 AM »
It seem you did not understand this post. By God alone, I mean the de-emphasis of Qur'an alone in favor of God alone as the message of Islam. And in this context, Lot was not a God aloner. Lot bore sacred traditions and doctrines.

Again, going by definition of God alone in this context, it is not clear that Nuh was a God aloner. The common assumption that prophets before Moses merely called people to worship God alone, without any formal law or doctrine isn't reasonable.

Jews, Muslims, and Christians are not God alone communities. You can't belong in this community merely by admission of belief in one God, you have to believe in and abide by the religious texts and traditions.

Well, I didn't say it is mandatory to build a community. But it helps. Doctrines like marriage, hajj and congregational salat are more practical in presence of a community.

But even more importantly, communities mature into civilization. And this is the bone of contention here. God aloners never built civilization in human history. Because God aloners don't build communities. Civilizations are built from ideologically homogenous communities, as religious communities.
Still I don't agree with you.. Coz your heading and what you wrote in the thread has many misleading..

First of all you don't know who the God Aloners were and are..

As you claim religion is not fundamental factor for generating a civilization.. There are many more key factors than role of religion that play in forming a civilization.. I hope I don't need to give examples what they are..

God Aloners are part and parcel of every civilization is depending on what civilization you take for example... In almost every civilization believers did live.. That can't be denied.. Coz to every nation messengers were sent.. Messengers were sent to cities with intent..

God knows one is God alone or deviate.. You don't have proof in the history a single religion created a civilization...  Civilizations are unified by many beliefs.. In them definitely believers...that you can't disaprove.. Coz every nation consisted a messenger at least..

Dude don't depend on merely religion to originate civilization.. That's far from historical truth..

Further.. Significantly you took 5:48 to your support by leaving the cream and the essence of the verse...

God never accept sects.. God never send religion.. All what God sent is to remind people He is the Lord of the Aalamin..

How crooked your title and what you wrote in your initial thread..

Even confirming civilization are born based on religion is mere myth of you..

Sarah

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Re: God Aloners and Non-Religious Folks Never Built Civilization
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2020, 10:29:31 AM »
Peace

I believe that if we follow the Qur'an alone, we should call ourselves muslims/ submitters and our religion is Islam which specifically means following the Qur'an alone without using man-made religious sources for religious guidance.

'... [It is] the religion of your father, Abraham. Allah named you "Muslims" before [in former scriptures] and in this [revelation] that the Messenger may be a witness over you and you may be witnesses over the people...' 22:78

'The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.'

If we believe the above, should we call ourselves God-aloners? Not really because we're submitters who believe in this specific Quranic revelation. But perhaps this is what some people mean by God alone. It depends what people mean by 'God alone'. Deism? Quranic submission to God? I prefer Muslim/ submitter who follows the Quran alone because this clearly reflects the Quranic view and helps me remember who I am.

Do I believe we should have a Qur'an alone community? Yes. Does that mean we should not be a part of other communities? No. So I agree that we should have a community of submitters however, I disagree that we cannot exist peacefully with other humans of different religious backgrounds. How do I know this? Because i have a sunni friend. Although we may not share the exact same religious views, we can agree to disagree and get on peacefully and even enjoy our friendship.

'Human beings are naturally & socially different, and thus divided. We can't all agree & to get along in spite of core ideological differences. And pushing people to permanently integrate and abandon their unpopular preferences all in the name of inclusivity, tolerance and diversity is the root of much of the world's problems like - Islamophobia, anti-semitism, racism, homophobia etc.'

So what do you want? The opposite? Exclusivity, intolerance and non- diversity?

It's only intolerant bigots that cannot exist peacefully with people of different religions and backgrounds. That's why there's islamophobia, anti-semitism, racism etc., it's not because we're all different and living together as a society, it's because there are many intolerant bigots/ narcissists out there who cannot accept other people because they can't stand the fact someone would dare to disagree with their views, they have to be superior etc. This behaviour is often 'covert' (although overt too) so although a lot of these bigots may not say these things, they'll indirectly behave in prejudice, discriminative ways. On the other hand, a peaceful/ humble person can agree to disagree- it is possible and I know from my personal experiences.

When you mention,'abandon their unpopular preferences', it depends what those are. I agree that sometimes things are taken too far esp. in terms of freedom of speech.

'What is best is respect alternative viewpoint and allow for spaces - communities - within which such viewpoints may be expressed.'
True, that's what inclusivity means. You're right here.






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good logic

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Re: God Aloners and Non-Religious Folks Never Built Civilization
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2020, 12:35:57 PM »
Peace Neptin.
Actually I agree with this, quote:
"Come on. Why can't people be who they want to be - Qur'anist, Catholic, Jewish, White, Black, Brown? People should be free to be who they want and associate or dissociate from whom they want. Nothing is wrong with that.

So why can t people be God Aloners or non religious or ...as well?
I wonder if our aim is to build civilisations that despise each other anyway?
GOD bless you
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Jafar

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Re: God Aloners and Non-Religious Folks Never Built Civilization
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2020, 05:03:47 PM »
I wrote at length previously on the danger of Anti-religion and God alone mantra as trend among Qur'anists. Both trends push for inclusivity and shun organized community based religion.

The 'danger' that any inclusivity movements posed is ONLY towards any exclusivity movements.
When everyone is being included there's no room for 'exclusivity' to exist.

Quote
Thus, the Qur'an calls for organized religion and approve division among men on religious line. This brings me to the title of this thread.

From what I read on the verses it actually pose towards TOLERANCE.
But hey, everyone will read it differently in accordance to any preconceived thought already inside their head.

Quote
The result of that is not a harmonious community, it is a mishmash of factions engaged in a perennial competition to assert the dominance of their own view at the expense of others.

Harmonious community can only be achieved when everyone regards the other-selves as among themselves.
That is moving towards UNIFICATION / INCLUSIVITY and not SEPARATION / EXCLUSIVITY.

Will you ever wanted to hurt your own hand?
Or is your right hand try to beat out and dominate your left hand?
That is because you viewed all part of your body as among yourselves.


Quote
Human beings are naturally & socially different, and thus divided. We can't all agree & to get along in spite of core ideological differences. And pushing people to permanently integrate and abandon their unpopular preferences all in the name of inclusivity, tolerance and diversity is the root of much of the world's problems like - Islamophobia, anti-semitism, racism, homophobia etc.

I've noticed that you make a lot of cause and effect inference mistakes .. :rotfl:

Not only human, all species are naturally different, but not necessarily divided.
Actually in absolute reality everything in this universe (and beyond) are different but connected.

Inclusivity CANNOT BE PUSHED OR FORCED.. inclusivity means always opening your arms and leave the option opened to those who want to be included. But NOT FORCING those who don't want to be included.

But anytime the member of the 'exclusive club' wanted to join, they will always be accepted.
Inclusivity has inbuilt UNITY in mind.

Exclusivity however always forced it members to abide to certain rules and regulations, otherwise they will be expelled from the exclusive club. Although it's rare, more often the members will be 'tortured' within the exclusive club. As the exclusive club will not allow any of it's member to leave the club.

Anyone know how to leave the Catholic religion? Islam religion? Judaism religion? or leave North Korea?
Even the US government makes it very hard for any US citizen to renounce it's US citizenship. At least they will check if there's any 'outstanding tax' to be paid and mandate for it's due payment.

And there's always a set of requirements for new member to join this exclusive club.
Exclusivity has inbuilt SEPARATION in mind, they will try to came up with an argument on why they're exclusive, why they're 'special' and why they're different from others and why they're 'above' others (German: Uber Alles).

At the moment:
The majority of 'clubs' on this earth are exclusive by nature.
And the majority of individual on this earth adopted separation attitude in mind. Clearly reflected from the language they use.
There's "I" (the most important individual) and outside of "I" there are you, him, her, them (less important individual).

Unless we zoomed in to the physical parts of the "I" (hands, legs, face, hair etc..) which the individual regarded as 'part of the I".

Unity Is The One Infinite Creator

Unity is the 'natural' or 'default' attitude of the one infinite creator. given everything is His creation in the first place, and everything are his children and actually within Him. The one infinite creator always opened His arms to those who want to be included.

Yet among His creation there are those who viewed themselves as 'separated' and not be included with 'others', they think they're 'special', 'exclusive' and 'above others'. Nonetheless the one infinite creator always keep His hands open anytime anyone among the members of the 'exclusive' club decided to return back. But of course it will resulted with the creation to dissolved it's own 'exclusivity' thus dissolving it's own separation.

The similitude is like a person turning off the signal receiver on the mobile phone with intention to be 'disconnected' from the network. And he started to influenced others to do the same thing, mostly through lies by saying that the radio signal is no longer available now or the radio signal is 'bad' or 'dangerous' for you or by turning off your receiver you will become 'special' and 'exclusive' as you will be disconnected from the rest. The signal will always be there nonetheless, anytime they want to turn on the receiver again and join the network.

Not the best metaphor I admit, there are other better metaphor as told by Jesus and Siddharta.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Prodigal_Son


Having said that, feel free to try!
Be 'exclusive', 'special' and create your own 'exclusive' club.


Neptin

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Re: God Aloners and Non-Religious Folks Never Built Civilization
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2020, 12:00:17 AM »
Still I don't agree with you.. Coz your heading and what you wrote in the thread has many misleading..

First of all you don't know who the God Aloners were and are..

We don't know partly because they didn't create communities or civilizations. If they did, we could have learnt about them. We don't even know if any such group existed, obviously because they don't organize themselves.

Quote
As you claim religion is not fundamental factor for generating a civilization.. There are many more key factors than role of religion that play in forming a civilization.. I hope I don't need to give examples what they are..

It is fundamental because to build a civilization, you need to first establish order and decorum, to eliminate anarchy or chaos. Religion prescribes defined laws and principles to accomplish this.

Quote
God Aloners are part and parcel of every civilization is depending on what civilization you take for example... In almost every civilization believers did live.. That can't be denied.. Coz to every nation messengers were sent.. Messengers were sent to cities with intent..

Here are the types of God aloners

1. Serving One God and not associating partners while recognizing that God's servants are divided into different communities based upon their scripture.
2. Serving one God and not associating partners but not recognizing that God's servant are divided into separate communities based upon their scripture.

Messengers of God and the disciples were type 1 God aloners. Type 1 God aloners were part and parcel of many civilizations, they build communities and in fact may have a hand in building a few civilizations.

But type 2 God aloners who often don't appreciate community building based upon a shared scripture or understanding of the scriptures are individualists, who don't build and will never build a civilization.

Quote
God knows one is God alone or deviate.. You don't have proof in the history a single religion created a civilization...  Civilizations are unified by many beliefs.. In them definitely believers...that you can't disaprove.. Coz every nation consisted a messenger at least..

Lots of proof. US civilization was founded and built primarily by Trinitarian protestant Christians. The Abbasid Civilization was founded and built primarily by Sunnite Muslims.

Being part of civilization is different from founding or establishing the civilization.
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