Author Topic: seven heavens  (Read 352 times)

tutti_frutti

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seven heavens
« on: July 30, 2020, 01:26:13 PM »
salam everyone

i would please like your opinion as to what you think the seven heavens are

i take the verses literally and indeed there are seven heavens, but the question is, can we know/observe them?

surah 71 verse 15 has nuh pbuh telling his people:

“did you not see how God created seven heavens in layers?”

nuh pbuh tells his people “did you not see how..” ... so does that mean perhaps the seven heavens are “visible” to us and we could observe them? (or maybe they were visible to nuh pbuh people only? or to no one?)
however the thing is that nuh pbuh uses the word “how” ... so  rather than “do you not see the seven heavens”, nuh pbuh says “did you not see HOW (kayfa)...”  so what do you guys think is meant with the word “how”?

any comments please welcome

thank uuu

peace

ade_cool

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Re: seven heavens
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2020, 09:14:27 PM »
salam everyone

i would please like your opinion as to what you think the seven heavens are

i take the verses literally and indeed there are seven heavens, but the question is, can we know/observe them?

surah 71 verse 15 has nuh pbuh telling his people:

“did you not see how God created seven heavens in layers?”

nuh pbuh tells his people “did you not see how..” ... so does that mean perhaps the seven heavens are “visible” to us and we could observe them? (or maybe they were visible to nuh pbuh people only? or to no one?)
however the thing is that nuh pbuh uses the word “how” ... so  rather than “do you not see the seven heavens”, nuh pbuh says “did you not see HOW (kayfa)...”  so what do you guys think is meant with the word “how”?

any comments please welcome

thank uuu

peace

Salam tutti_frutti,

[71:15] “Do you not see how God created seven heavens in layers?”
[71:16] “And He made the moon to illuminate in them, and He made the sun to be a lamp?”


If we read further the next verse, I believe the seven heavens are visible/observable by us as (not only by people of Nuh).

The reason is obvious:
- first, we can observe the moon and the sun (they are in seven heavens)
- second, if God is asking "do you not see/understand/think/consider/know HOW ...", then it implies the ones being addressed have (or will have - since Quran often mentions things that can be appreciated better in far future) the ability to understand the HOW.


As for what the seven heavens are, you might want to check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n3ttEA1rbs

The above is the interpretation that is only possible in our age with the advance of science and technology (I am sure there are other interpretations as well and I am all ears to hear all of them). People in the past definitely have different interpretation and people in the future might have different interpretation as their science and technology advance further.


Wassalam,
Ade

tutti_frutti

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Re: seven heavens
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2020, 09:37:27 PM »
salam ade

thank you for your reply

ahh indeed with the following verse (71:16) maybe we could observe the seven heavens (but which of the heavens? all of them?)

but what do you think the seven heavens are? is the moon in the lowest of the seven heavens? highest of the seven heavens? or can we only say the moon is in the heavens? etc

you think all seven heavens are contained in the universe as we know it/can observe it?
(or is your opinion in line with the youtube link you sent and by watching it i would understand your opinion?)

btw thank you for the youtube link i will check it out and get back to you if thats okay

thank uuu

peace

Iyyaka

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Re: seven heavens
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2020, 12:45:36 AM »
Salam Alaykoum,

My vision per the quran is that the Quran was clear for people in arabia who lives in the beginning of the 7th century..It is first a book of Guidance for men not a book of modern science..(not incompatible - juste not on the same level of knowledge). Men in the Quran are the main and center subject, for convincing them to follow the good path for their preservation (no big bang theory, no dinosaurs etc..).
The main knowledge is about an "embodied knowledge" (from a humain perspective and specially from arabs perspective), or propheties in particular for the end of this world (many description of the final cosmic cataclysm), or by outlining creation in line with the Torah

1/ "As for what the seven heavens are, you might want to check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n3ttEA1rbs"
=> she talks about the evolution of the universe but in [71:15..16] it is about actual space construction (she is off topic).

2/
[71:15] Don't you consider-by-the-sight-experience* how did create Allah (the) seven** heavens (in) layers***,
[71:16] And made the moon therein**** a light and made the sun a lamp ?

* the expression "alam taraw" is used when expressing astonishment (arouses admiration - hamd) equivalent to "do you see that". Even if you can only see the lowest sky [41:12] you know others sky is above this one.

** the number 7 in the Semitic language expresses the number 7 but also the perfect completeness (nothing to add ..) without flaw.
[67:3] He created seven heavens in layers. You do not see any imperfection in the creation by the Almighty. Keep looking; do you see any flaw?
The vison of the sky for ancient arabs is like house with floors (can see in Yemen) https://www.herodote.net/_Arabie_heureuse_Arabie_dechiree-synthese-2020-452.php (second image).

*** "ṭibāqan" = vaults of celestial spheres superimposed on each other like the envelopes of an onion.

**** the moon is inside the heavens - it makes part of the lowest sky.

Peace

tutti_frutti

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Re: seven heavens
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2020, 09:47:00 AM »
salam iyakka

indeed i understand too that the Quran is a book of guidance, a mercy to humanity as well as a warning

i also understand that the Quran also contains proofs

my point with the verse is that nuh pbuh does not say “have you not seen how the God created the skies” but rather actually mentions  “seven heavens”

so are we able to understand these seven heavens? or you believe the seven heavens simply means complete?

thank you for the youtube link (ade also shared the same link)

thank you for the article link
although whether or not people in arabia before saw the skies as layers of house should not matter to the Quran because it is not their thoughts that are in the Quran but it is the truth from The Lord. so it is not as how they saw the skies that matters but the seven heavens is how the skies actually are

btw the article mentions sheba kiglngdom
in yemen, are they sure about that? (i am eager to identify the kingdom lol)

thank uu

peace

Iyyaka

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Re: seven heavens
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2020, 12:14:12 PM »
salam iyakka

my point with the verse is that nuh pbuh does not say “have you not seen how the God created the skies” but rather actually mentions  “seven heavens”

so are we able to understand these seven heavens? or you believe the seven heavens simply means complete?

thank you for the youtube link (ade also shared the same link)

thank you for the article link
although whether or not people in arabia before saw the skies as layers of house should not matter to the Quran because it is not their thoughts that are in the Quran but it is the truth from The Lord. so it is not as how they saw the skies that matters but the seven heavens is how the skies actually are

btw the article mentions sheba kiglngdom
in yemen, are they sure about that? (i am eager to identify the kingdom lol)

thank uu

peace
Salam tutti_frutti,

Point 1 - i quote you "so are we able to understand these seven heavens? or you believe the seven heavens simply means complete?"
=> As i know today by using Al-quran the answer is NO at your fist question. We just know the lowest sky. And i don't know per quran if celestial objects which are not visible to the naked eye in the sky are part of the lowest sky or not. Just guesswork for me (I have the modern science for that)
=> Yes, heavens means several skies and "7" symbolize the perfection of all (they are well-organized and without flaws.).

Point 2 - I quote u : "thank you for the youtube link (ade also shared the same link)"
=> Sorry I took the link from ade to refute the argumentation of this video (she is off topic concerning me)

Point 3 - I quote u : "btw the article mentions sheba kiglngdom
in yemen, are they sure about that? (i am eager to identify the kingdom lol)"
=> Sorry i was founding a photo for illustrate traditional Arabian multi-storey houses, and too quicky, i sent u the link of a paper which i was ONLY interested by the second image inside it.

Peace.