Author Topic: When were we dead as per 2:28?  (Read 3171 times)

tutti_frutti

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Re: When were we dead as per 2:28?
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2020, 09:52:10 PM »
salam jkhan

you do not know if the people in paradise will perish and be reduced to nothing

you have also not completed the verse (surah 11, verse 108)

As for those who are glad, they will be in paradise; abiding therein as long as the heavens and the earth exist, except for what your Lord wishes, a giving without end/uninterrupted (please verify the arabic text)

also, given the people of paradise will only experience the first death, my understanding is that they will not experience a second death and so The God perhaps permits them to be eternally in paradise

the counter argument though is in surah 28 verse 88:

Do not worship anything besides God. He is the only God. Everything will be destroyed except God. To Him belongs Judgment and to Him you will all return.

i do not know if The God is telling us that all will perish in this life or in general He will remove everything from existence and bring the next life to an end
but as after we are told that everything wil be destroyed then The God mentions judgement belongs to Him and that we will return to Him, i understand the sequence of events that everything will perish in this life and we will return to Him (maybe i am wrong)

i do not agree with you regarding your interpretation of surah 57, verse 3

i understand that:
The God is THE Eternal
He who has no beginning and no end
He is the Truth, The One
He is the Creator of existence
The Owner of existence
alllll glory is to Him

peace

jkhan

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Re: When were we dead as per 2:28?
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2020, 11:50:13 PM »
salam jkhan

you do not know if the people in paradise will perish and be reduced to nothing

you have also not completed the verse (surah 11, verse 108)

As for those who are glad, they will be in paradise; abiding therein as long as the heavens and the earth exist, except for what your Lord wishes, a giving without end/uninterrupted (please verify the arabic text)

also, given the people of paradise will only experience the first death, my understanding is that they will not experience a second death and so The God perhaps permits them to be eternally in paradise

the counter argument though is in surah 28 verse 88:

Do not worship anything besides God. He is the only God. Everything will be destroyed except God. To Him belongs Judgment and to Him you will all return.

i do not know if The God is telling us that all will perish in this life or in general He will remove everything from existence and bring the next life to an end
but as after we are told that everything wil be destroyed then The God mentions judgement belongs to Him and that we will return to Him, i understand the sequence of events that everything will perish in this life and we will return to Him (maybe i am wrong)


Dear TF..
I have given my explanation about Jahanna and Janna.. wish you read correctly what I wrote by not missing… for both time span is identical as long as Earth and Heavens last… But No one knows the WILL of God which is an additional phrase in the verse… But promises of God everyone knows.. He won’t break His promise… God can do better for those in Hell by His Will.. God won’t punish them beyond what is promised… that is not breaking promise… that’s Mercy… But God cannot take away anything what is promised for those in Janna… If God said as long as Earth and heavens last, then it should be accomplished, that is keeping the promise… What happens after Earth and Heavens perished is within God’s will.. That we don’t know.. But nothing is like God and nothing can last like God… There is no promise of creating the third earth and heavens and make us live on it and on and on…. No.. We are creature and bound to extinct / nonexistent at certain time when God will or as He promised… We are not First and we are not Last… Can’t expect to have the qualities of God for Human or any of His creature…




i do not agree with you regarding your interpretation of surah 57, verse 3

i understand that:
The God is THE Eternal
He who has no beginning and no end

He is the Truth, The One
He is the Creator of existence
The Owner of existence
alllll glory is to Him

peace

It is absolutely fine what you understand about God… But my understanding remain with me… And what I understood about God differs to you in relation to verse 57:03…
28:88 is within context… It never used the Word GOD but His Wajha..That You try to find meaning and open a new topic…or if you already know explain if you wish…
28:88 When everything is perished There is No Lord, No Creator, No Mercy, No Mighty…. Nothing is meaningful…. Unless He repeats what He did… Once He established in His Arsh He became Rabb Al Alamin… Alamin is over…  No Rabb…. He cannot call He is God without a single living creature of His… He is empty then…. He created well before Jinns and assigned malaika so He has authority over them… Then later created the Earth and heavens and placed all living creature and more authority.. Rabb ala alamin…. But when nothing All His attributes are nothing…
For me God is not Eternal
He has No beginning and No End is nowhere God indicated for us to claim it so…
Rest is okay and agree..

57:03 He is FIRST (Awwal) He never said He has No Beginning but instead said He is First…He is Last (Akhir) He never said Has No End but instead said He is Last… Don’t take these two words metaphor… But they are literal…
First means nothing before…. No. 01… nothing before it…then came the creations…. Then ends of creations… Then literally He becomes Last….

tutti_frutti

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Re: When were we dead as per 2:28?
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2020, 09:42:41 AM »
salam jkhan

in the verse about hell The God says “EXCEPT as your Lord wishes” .. so hell does not necessarily exist as long as the heavens and earth exist... but perhaps The God will make hell perish but keep the heavens and earth and as such perhaps paradise still in existence

in the verse about paradise The God says “a giving uninterrupted/without end”  (please verify the arabic original)

The God tells us those in paradise will only experience the first death so my understanding is that they will not die or vanish or perish (or whatever synonym you wish to choose) after the first death... however if The God wants everything to perish then He does whatever He wants (He is the Truth and He told us those in paradise experience only the first death so i understand no second death or vanishing to those in paradise)

in any case He is the Eternal who has always been and will always be

The God says He IS the First and the Last and NOT He WAS the First and WILL BE the Last

He IS the first meaning nothing preceded Him as He was always, there is nothing before Him - He has always been

and He IS the last as He will always be, there is nothing after Him ... there is The God and there will always be just The God

very big diffrence between “He IS the First and the Last” and “He WAS the first and WILL BE the last”

peace

jkhan

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Re: When were we dead as per 2:28?
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2020, 06:54:16 PM »
salam jkhan

in the verse about hell The God says “EXCEPT as your Lord wishes” .. so hell does not necessarily exist as long as the heavens and earth exist... but perhaps The God will make hell perish but keep the heavens and earth and as such perhaps paradise still in existence

in the verse about paradise The God says “a giving uninterrupted/without end”  (please verify the arabic original)

The God tells us those in paradise will only experience the first death so my understanding is that they will not die or vanish or perish (or whatever synonym you wish to choose) after the first death... however if The God wants everything to perish then He does whatever He wants (He is the Truth and He told us those in paradise experience only the first death so i understand no second death or vanishing to those in paradise)

in any case He is the Eternal who has always been and will always be

The God says He IS the First and the Last and NOT He WAS the First and WILL BE the Last

He IS the first meaning nothing preceded Him as He was always, there is nothing before Him - He has always been

and He IS the last as He will always be, there is nothing after Him ... there is The God and there will always be just The God

very big diffrence between “He IS the First and the Last” and “He WAS the first and WILL BE the last”

peace

Thank you for your response..
I think still you didn't go through what I wrote ... Uninterrupted.. Yes.. But within system...
Dude I am repeating.. God's Will and God's Promise entirely two different things.. He is not a promise breaker.. But He can be a promise breaker on His mercy.. Janna is a pleasant place.. Cannot break promise.. But He can give more than what He promised.. That's His will..
Jahanna is unpleasant place.. He can show His mercy by His will.. Will those who in hell when shown mercy by God say God broke promise.. No.. They will be happy.. And those in Janna also will be happy if people of Jahanna are shown mercy by God...
Again repeat.. What God wills no one will know.. No point of digging it..

Next point God is Eternal?... No God is Not Eternal... He may be eternal that we don't know and never will know .. Coz we not existed before Him and we won't exist after Him.. For us God starts once we are created by Him.. We only will Know things as long as we live..
Who is God?  Who gave this word God to His living being.. Why?  What is God?  Note specially for whome He is God? God is God when His creations do exist .. 

He was First or will be last won't make any difference... I have repeated in this thread saying No-one before Him.. And No-one after Him.. And you repeat again..
Just take the meaning of First(Awwal).. When we start to say no one before or nothing before it literally means that's the beginning of all beginning...(for example. No-one ever landed on this island.. First is Me.. Call it I am / I was / I will be First.. First is me.. It won't change) Last is also same.. Keep it in any tense First and Last meaning won't change...

God taught us He is God.. Lord of alamin.. Creator of everything.. Arrahman arraheem.. Whatever it is... Just try to grasp on your own pls.. Can't elaborate it...
Can He call Himself He is the Mighty powerful and knower of everything etc etc.. When there is nothing, calling knower of everything or mighty powerful is totally meaningless.. before He execute/create them no God ...simple language before executing anything He was not God.. Cannot claim so... To whom He will say that I am Mighty and Most merciful... Can He claim before create anything I am the Lord of Aalamin... Literally God taught to His creations everything what He taught and made them to call Him God coz of what He created and deservedly so and with full authority coz no one can create snd no one will.. ..
So dear God is not Eternal... But He exists living and standing... But He is not God when He reaches to LAST.. .. when there is no connection with Him and His creations there is No God..
No god but God.. La ilaha illallah..  ..is no more valid.. He may exist like He existed even before all creations But Not God...  Coz No one is there to call Him God.. No one for Him to claim authority over them..


tutti_frutti

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Re: When were we dead as per 2:28?
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2020, 08:20:19 PM »
salam jkhan

you have no knowledge of what you are saying about The God, and you are merely guessing and you are guessing wrong

and i frankly think that what you are saying is completely misguiding and very very wrong and should definitely not be said

The God is the Eternal
He who has always been and will always be

you are also guessing about paradise and hell
Only The God knows

peace

jkhan

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Re: When were we dead as per 2:28?
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2020, 10:08:33 PM »
salam jkhan

you have no knowledge of what you are saying about The God, and you are merely guessing and you are guessing wrong

and i frankly think that what you are saying is completely misguiding and very very wrong and should definitely not be said

The God is the Eternal
He who has always been and will always be

you are also guessing about paradise and hell
Only The God knows

peace

Peace...

I have knowledge  of what I am saying.. You are no one to say againat it.. Are you?  Unless you bring verses.. There is big difference between guessing and understanding...

Whatever I have furnished is with Quran  verses and my understanding based on that..

If you don't get them it's fine.. You will live always with your understanding even it takes you to Janna or Jahanna... That's human... Behind all true understanding God is present...
You have come to a point now to blame me not debate.. Be in debate or leave that's your choice but no point only having to feel you are right and blame others since you are not satisfied ... In debate we go opposite side.. Thats common.. presenting what we undertood is the platform for hunting truth... Make use this forum.. You don't know my intention that God knows.. So no worries...

But I don't blame you coz I know it hurts when one speaks against his belief regardless of intention ...

Be positive.. Take example of brother Ayman.. He presents his understanding not guessing (fantasy lol)  about Jinn.. I deny with verses  and most others too.. Coz what understood is different to what he has understood.. Presenting to hunt truth... No need to blame like not to present understanding.. Anyone can leave or be silent... But... Debate is always good in search of truth... We open new vistas that we also not known before... No grudges okay.. God guides.. Not what I write or what you write here.. How God guides he only knows...

For me God(real meaning) will never be Eternal if we are all to perish...

jkhan

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Re: When were we dead as per 2:28?
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2020, 11:41:45 PM »
Peace everyone...

Ask yourself if you wish..

Do you know anything before you were created?   Do you know about God before you were created? 
Were you not of nothing of state before you were created?
When did you know God and How?
If what God promises is true will we not see him after resurrected...?
Do we belong to the category of First or Last?
If we are not last,  won't we go back to nothing?

Don't we have Quran verses to ponder for above questions?

So when we go to nothing, Do we know anything?
How do we know God is eternal when we are nothing?
Or as TF claims we won't die so we live as long as God is around?  Does it befit to human who were nothing and came into being while the creator of us only belongs to the quality of Last?

Did God ever say He is the Eternal God to eternal Creatures?

Finally what is God/Allah? I reply.. God is The Representation for His Creations.. Or Master/Lord of all created things.. That representation or Lord will become nothing if His creations go to nothing by His will.. The moment last of His creation be terminated then He literally the Last.. Once He is the Last literally there is no chance of anything to come again... That's more worthy to ponder..He assigned to Himself status of God/Lord through what He created...
God/Allah is a proper noun in my total understanding... So God is a status as long as He is willing to be God...that He assigned Himself the moment He commenced Creation.. So God is not Eternal.. He (the physic) is eternal or not no one will know.. Coz we are not last.. For example Mother..  One becomes mother when she delivers a child.. If all children died she is not literally mother but old women..  No one of her biological child remains to call her mother..

Can anyone kindly give the meaning of First and Last in verse 57:03 within your understanding if you are opposite to what I have written above ?

Houriya

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Re: When were we dead as per 2:28?
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2020, 12:27:39 AM »
Peace Jkhan,

I agree, in the reading, the word ethernel/khalid is not used for God. He uses the verb yabqa / remain or abqa.

20:73    "We have believed in our Lord that He may forgive us our wrongdoings, and what you had forced us into doing of magic; and God is better and lasting / abqa."

When a member of the forum judges you, the best way to respond is to ignore it.
The ego is always right and wants to have the last word.

No one is wrong, no one is right, we are in this forum to share our understanding of reading while respecting the opinions of others.
We don't tell someone you derail from reading ;)

God is the best of judges

From this thread :
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611102.0

He is the first / al-awwal and the last / alakhir

28:70    And He is God, there is no god except He. To Him belongs all praise in the first / al-oola and in the last / al-akhira , and judgment belongs with Him, and to Him you will be returned.

Wherever we turn, there is the face of God.

55:26 Everyone upon it will fade away.
55:27 And the face of your Lord will remain/yabqa; One with Majesty and
Honor.

Only God exists, we will be returned to him, the source, the first and the last.

28:88 And do not call besides God any god, there is no god except He. Everything will fade away except His face. To Him is the judgment, and to Him you will be returned.


Peace


Peace everyone...

Ask yourself if you wish..

Do you know anything before you were created?   Do you know about God before you were created? 
Were you not of nothing of state before you were created?
When did you know God and How?
If what God promises is true will we not see him after resurrected...?
Do we belong to the category of First or Last?
If we are not last,  won't we go back to nothing?

Don't we have Quran verses to ponder for above questions?

So when we go to nothing, Do we know anything?
How do we know God is eternal when we are nothing?
Or as TF claims we won't die so we live as long as God is around?  Does it befit to human who were nothing and came into being while the creator of us only belongs to the quality of Last?

Did God ever say He is the Eternal God to eternal Creatures?

Finally what is God/Allah? I reply.. God is The Representation for His Creations.. Or Master/Lord of all created things.. That representation or Lord will become nothing if His creations go to nothing by His will.. The moment last of His creation be terminated then He literally the Last.. Once He is the Last literally there is no chance of anything to come again... That's more worthy to ponder..He assigned to Himself status of God/Lord through what He created...
God/Allah is a proper noun in my total understanding... So God is a status as long as He is willing to be God...that He assigned Himself the moment He commenced Creation.. So God is not Eternal.. He (the physic) is eternal or not no one will know.. Coz we are not last.. For example Mother..  One becomes mother when she delivers a child.. If all children died she is not literally mother but old women..  No one of her biological child remains to call her mother..

Can anyone kindly give the meaning of First and Last in verse 57:03 within your understanding if you are opposite to what I have written above ?


jkhan

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Re: When were we dead as per 2:28?
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2020, 01:47:33 AM »
Peace Jkhan,

I agree, in the reading, the word ethernel/khalid is not used for God. He uses the verb yabqa / remain or abqa.

20:73    "We have believed in our Lord that He may forgive us our wrongdoings, and what you had forced us into doing of magic; and God is better and lasting / abqa."

When a member of the forum judges you, the best way to respond is to ignore it.
The ego is always right and wants to have the last word.

No one is wrong, no one is right, we are in this forum to share our understanding of reading while respecting the opinions of others.
We don't tell someone you derail from reading ;)

God is the best of judges

From this thread :
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611102.0
 

Peace

Thanks for your kind words and advice..  I welcome it..

No no.. I don't blame him... It's part of debate and nothing personal with him.. He is good... ...  Even the words used "derailed" it's all for the sake of debate while I am on the opposite side..
No personal attacks... I am no where near to the knowledge of brother Ayman.. But for the sake of debate i use certain words.. But purpose of debate is to extract the truth to the top and exposed in a concerted manner..  Thatse debate.. Not an mere article ... So in the end the debators and the silent readers also would get certain grip on the truth when they verify...
What I leaned through this forum and my debate is incredible and invaluable... I am here to develop my soul with truth... So I am benefited so far I presume ...

Some have patience and some don't.. See the patience of brother Ayman... He answers each every thread.. Lol.. Patience key in life and even debate..

Pls don't respond to this thread of mine anyone.. Let the topic go ahead in its own ..

jkhan

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Re: When were we dead as per 2:28?
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2020, 01:50:45 AM »
Peace Jkhan,

I agree, in the reading, the word ethernel/khalid is not used for God. He uses the verb yabqa / remain or abqa.

20:73    "We have believed in our Lord that He may forgive us our wrongdoings, and what you had forced us into doing of magic; and God is better and lasting / abqa."
 

Peace

Yes abqa  is used but it never gives the meaning of Eternal either.. Lasting.. Yes okay.. Hope you compared the other occurences

Peace..