Author Topic: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven  (Read 4892 times)

ayman

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #70 on: August 01, 2020, 11:06:02 PM »
I don't know about universe coz I don't believe in it .. But human fantasy or imagination is not the only source of falsehood..
Even you agree or not before human a malak was in falsehood on his own... What was the falsehood? Falsehood was his arrogance.. Arrogance is not the right choice for created things... Arrogance comes coz of falsehood... And other falsehood the m as kal did was denying the Creator's command .. That's manifestly his own decision..  No human is involved in his decision...
Third falsehood is he decided to revenge.. Revenge on all God's creation which is created for Testing... Revenge coz he chosed the falsehood on his own and he knew the outcome of falsehood.. So.. He decided to revenge who was directly or indirectly reason for his falsehood.. Up until he was in elite group..
So.. He got a a respite from his Lord to accomplish what he willed what he chosen the falsehood wrong path... Human has nothing to do with it.. Coz it was not human who did all this...
Human waa only a trap to it but not all.  That fallen malak (iblees)  is like advertisement giving attraction to go for it...  Human is not the only source of falsehood...  All falsehood started well before human ever did a falsehood.. Humans first ever falsehood is denying the order of God...
Try to grasp it...
Human is given his own faculties to think and choose right and leave wrong ... That faculty is within himself... How he uses is his own business...  Every individual is questioned coz he is responsible for what he does..  Human is not human without brain... Or dath matter if human loses his thinking power he is no more human.. Don't you see when brain fails  and they act like child or totally against to their character. Not even able to understand anything.. That all part of human... So acting like a child is not his genuine choice but one faculty fails.  . So fantasy or imagination is human choice using the faculty he is provided with...
He may go wrong listening to the deception(whispers) of Satan or listening to his fellow human deception. But it is his choice... Within himself..

Regarding your point of malak.. I am sorry I have given my full understanding of Quran what malak is anf if you deviate thata your fantasy.. Agaun I say malak is a creature jinn created by fire and not non existing status for which you have not brought any proof and you won't and you can't bring from Quran..

Peace Jkhan,

Just listen to what you are saying. You are saying that Iblees was the source of falsehood. You are actually confirming what I am saying if you stop and think instead of being concerned with winning some argument. I am saying that Iblees is the fantasy and that the fantasy is the source of all falsehood in the universe. Each human has a fantasy attached to him or her. Also, everything will be clearer when you ponder on 3:26, which clearly says that "mlk" is a status not a specie. 

Peace,

Ayman

jkhan

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #71 on: August 01, 2020, 11:43:32 PM »
Peace Jkhan,

Just listen to what you are saying. You are saying that Iblees was the source of falsehood. You are actually confirming what I am saying if you stop and think instead of being concerned with winning some argument. I am saying that Iblees is the fantasy and that the fantasy is the source of all falsehood in the universe. Each human has a fantasy attached to him or her. Also, everything will be clearer when you ponder on 3:26, which clearly says that "mlk" is a status not a specie. 

Peace,

Ayman

Brother..
Pls read what I have written... I am responding to what your concern which is human is the source of all falsehood..
What I have written is very clear unless spelling or grammar mistake..

So your fantasy,  now who gave this fantasy to say that I am trying to win the debate.. Who will name me that I have won the debate?  Will somekne here assigned to name the winners of debate..
Just relax.. All I want is to take the truth to the top either through me or through others who furnish the truth with logic... Truth will always win... Not the one who debate or the one who lose the debate..
Again I repeat human is not the greatest source of falsehood ever..no proof from Quran  for you to derive.. But all falsehood started within a malak who is created by fire.. He is a physical creature cold jinn..

Enquiry

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #72 on: August 02, 2020, 12:18:29 AM »
Salam Ayman,

Hope you are doing well. I have been searching for some answers in this forum I went eventually all the way back since the inception of this forum. I had the pleasure to read your articles and understanding of the cube and other important topics. There was an article that Wakas gave a link to, but i think the links dont work prior to 2003, so I was hoping you still had that artice. I'm not sure about the name of the article, but it was along the lines of the bond or commitment or contract between mankind and God. In the end I was looking answers regarding Hell fire (may we all be saved from that terrible pusnishment by our dear God).

If it's not too much, I was hoping you could answer my question of whether Hell is forever, and how it is justified. Please see my link:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611032.0

Thank you for your contribution/time.

Peace

tutti_frutti

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2020, 07:17:46 AM »
salam ayman

my understanding 😊:

what do you mean angels (malak) is just a status?? a status given to whom?? and what makes you think that it is just a status?? 😊

when The God tells the angels He wants to create humans on earth, to whom is He speaking??

unless mistaken i remember there is a verse where The God says that the heavens will be filled with angels on judgement day ... what are these angels that will fill the heavens on the day of resurrection??

who will carry the throne of The God if not 8 angels??

or in the following verse 5 of surah 45

“almost might the heavens above be rent asunder while the angels hymn the praise of their Lord and ask forgiveness for those on the earth. Lo! Allah, He is the Forgiver, the Merciful.”

when The God says that angels seek forgiveness for those on earth... what do you think these angels are???

my point, it is quite obvious that angels are separate creatures and the jinn as well

surah 34 verse 14

“Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the jinn realized that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.”

how does imagination even fit in the above verse?

jinn are made from fire, what does imagination being made of fire even mean??

what makes you think that verse 3.26 is talking about angel as a status??? when i read the verse i understsnd quite clearly The God is speaking about anyone He gives sovereignty to which includes human kings, there is no mention of being about malaika

again, what made you think angel is just a status?? and if it is a status, to whom is it given?? who are these creatures that are given such status???

iblees is not a source of anything...
the only source of everything is The God
everything is from Him
also, unless mistaken, i remember there is a verse where The God said He created the human with his virtues and vices

the devil makes false promises, lies about The God, misleads etc

i understand the source of everything is The God, and only He permits things to exist (falsehood existing is a permission from Him as well)

peace

jkhan

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #74 on: August 04, 2020, 09:49:00 PM »
18:50-51 "When We told the angels to submit before Adam they all together submitted except Iblis. He became jinn and he sinned against the command of his Lord. Why do you  obey him and his offspring instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? How terrible will be the recompense that the wrong doers will receive.
I did not call to witness the creation of the heavens and earth nor to witness their own creation nor did I want to be helped by those who lead people astray
"

Peace everyone...
Very carefully read above two verses in any translation or in pure Arabic..
Do the above two verse give any hint that Jinn is non existing fantasy of human?

Every living creature once created and increase through reproduction.. Not exempted for Jinn even they be in a state of malak... Who is exempted from this is  in fact God.. "He doesn't beget nor begotten' rest all does..
By thesw verses it makes manifest that God created Djinn well before human and they became manifold..  Out of them God chose whom willed to the status of malaika.. Even out of them God chose whome will for the creation process of Heavens and Earth.. For sure even though iblees was a malak before sinned,  God didn't choose him for creation of heavens and Earth.. And non of the Jinns were part of creation process of heavens and Earth.. But only elite of elite malaika were..
The above verses very crystal clearly proves that..
Many glaring wording evidences are comprised in these two verses for those who ponder...

tutti_frutti

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #75 on: August 05, 2020, 03:06:52 PM »
salam jkhan

i hope you are doing well

you quote the verse as “he became of the jinn” whilst the word for word translation is “he was of the jinn” so we cannot assume the “he became” as definately correct (although i agree with you perhaps jinn and angles are same creation but jinn disbelieve and disobey The Lord but angels obey The Lord and fear Him)

you say “every living creature once created and increase through reproduction.. Not exempted for Jinn even they be in a state of malak...”

so you mean angels have children? i must disagree with you :)

i understand angels are male

“Or did We create the angels female while they were witnesses?” [37:150]

“And they make the angels who themselves are slaves of the Most Gracious females. Did they witness their creation? Their testimony will be recorded, and they will be questioned.” [43:19]

i am not sure, but jinn on other hand i think perhaps have females

you say “a non of the jinn were part of creation process of heavens and Earth.. But only elite of elite malaika were.. ”

i understand you are saying “elite of elite” of angels helped in creation? (i dont think we are told in Quran about there being elite or elite of elite of angels... we cannot make such claim of there being elite or elites of elite)
and brother what makes you think that angels helped in creation of heavens and earth??
The earth and heavens (and everything else literally including angels, michael and gabriel) were created by The God alone
He does not mention anything about the angels taking part in creation when He describes creating the heavens and the earth (or anything else) I understand from the verse  you quoted that the jinn were not witness to creation of heavens and earth ie not present ... no mention or allusion to angels in the verse

also, what does it mean “elite” or “elite of elite” of angels? The God does not make clear to us that there is a distinction between angels being elite and non elite, or a distinction that we should know.
to my knowledge the only time He mentions a distinction between angles is in the following verse

All praise belongs to God, the creator of the heavens and the earth who has made the angels messengers of two or three or four wings. He increases the creation as He wills. The God has power over all things. [35, 1]

surah 37 verse 8  “They cannot listen to the exalted assembly and they are thrown at from every side”
the above verse in my opinion does not make a distinction between angels (i may be wrong) but perhaps talks about all angels in general

(please verify all verses quoted)

to sum up my understand: angels are males, they did not help in creation of the heavens or earth or in creation of anything else (The God simply says Be and things are) and we are not aware of there being elite or non elite angels

peace

jkhan

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #76 on: August 05, 2020, 08:59:41 PM »
salam jkhan

i hope you are doing well

you quote the verse as “he became of the jinn” whilst the word for word translation is “he was of the jinn” so we cannot assume the “he became” as definately correct (although i agree with you perhaps jinn and angles are same creation but jinn disbelieve and disobey The Lord but angels obey The Lord and fear Him)

you say “every living creature once created and increase through reproduction.. Not exempted for Jinn even they be in a state of malak...”

so you mean angels have children? i must disagree with you :)

i understand angels are male

“Or did We create the angels female while they were witnesses?” [37:150]

“And they make the angels who themselves are slaves of the Most Gracious females. Did they witness their creation? Their testimony will be recorded, and they will be questioned.” [43:19]

i am not sure, but jinn on other hand i think perhaps have females

you say “a non of the jinn were part of creation process of heavens and Earth.. But only elite of elite malaika were.. ”

i understand you are saying “elite of elite” of angels helped in creation? (i dont think we are told in Quran about there being elite or elite of elite of angels... we cannot make such claim of there being elite or elites of elite)
and brother what makes you think that angels helped in creation of heavens and earth??
The earth and heavens (and everything else literally including angels, michael and gabriel) were created by The God alone
He does not mention anything about the angels taking part in creation when He describes creating the heavens and the earth (or anything else) I understand from the verse  you quoted that the jinn were not witness to creation of heavens and earth ie not present ... no mention or allusion to angels in the verse

also, what does it mean “elite” or “elite of elite” of angels? The God does not make clear to us that there is a distinction between angels being elite and non elite, or a distinction that we should know.
to my knowledge the only time He mentions a distinction between angles is in the following verse

All praise belongs to God, the creator of the heavens and the earth who has made the angels messengers of two or three or four wings. He increases the creation as He wills. The God has power over all things. [35, 1]

surah 37 verse 8  “They cannot listen to the exalted assembly and they are thrown at from every side”
the above verse in my opinion does not make a distinction between angels (i may be wrong) but perhaps talks about all angels in general

(please verify all verses quoted)

to sum up my understand: angels are males, they did not help in creation of the heavens or earth or in creation of anything else (The God simply says Be and things are) and we are not aware of there being elite or non elite angels

peace

Peace Brother TF…
I am doing fine thanks to God..

First of all I brought the verses 18:50-51 to give support that Jinn is a physical creature.. You have not given any substantial support based on the verse if you in fact believe Djinn are a physical creature not fantasy..

All what you aimed was to negate my additional points…

‘Kaana’ in Arabic I absolutely get the meaning of ‘became’ as well… if you want to disapprove bring all the verses in which Kaana appears and disapprove… So for me Iblees definitely became from the status of Malak (not distinguished in daraja but just a malak) to mere a jinn…

Understanding of quran will be till graveyard I presume……but to read the complete quran on multiple occasion it won’t take that much time.. So I have read the complete quran on multiple occasions.. so, I am well aware about all the verses of quran before I write something in the forum… Don’t think I wrote without the knowledge of 37:150 & 43:19….

Carefully note the verses 37:150 and 43:19 … Are Malaika Males? … directly it doesn’t say.. Does it? But we are given knowledge to explore and compare verses… So we can deduce by above two verses in a way that are No females in Malaika.. One can still put an argument that there is still female Malaika.. if anyone claim let’s debate… Likewise 18:50-51 is carefully taken and understood by myself…. Within the context of those two verses… it is very much clear Iblees was a Malak… but at the same time he became  Jinn by having to go against God’s order.. God got rid of his status of being malak…So became a  Jinn.. If one says malak is just status not a physical creature.. Then why Iblees didn’t become to nothingness once stripped of his status..
At the same time in verse 18:51 God continues to elaborate… Not about Malaika…but about Jinn and about who mislead… God knows everything and everyone’s heart.. God knew at one point a malak named Iblees will sin and go against His order.. So in verse 18:51 God clearly within the context of the verse means in our comprehensive understanding like we took 37:150 and 43:19 to mean no Female, He never took the help of Jinn who went astray nor He needs their help in the Creation of Heavens and the Earth… Not even He showed the creation of their own… But God did take the help of Malaika in whom God kept trust and to whom He gave immense power… Though they are Jinn… That’s clear within the verse… Person to person may understand the verse differently… But for me Malaika are part of creation process… Yes God says kun and it is… But don’t forget creation took 6 days… it won’t take 6 days to say kun.. He say I created Adam by His both hands.. he could have said Kun instead… We didn’t feel tiredness or fatigue in the creation of heavens and earth.. 50:38… To say merely ‘Be’ God doesn’t want to say all the verses…. Kun in my understanding to give life to something created or to make plan come true or determine etc… I may be wrong … but my personal understanding..

Your next point Malaika having children… I have never mentioned that Malaika have children… Have I?
I said to prove that Every living creature reproduce not exempted Jinn…Definitely djinn reproduce to have multitude.. Do you think only one jinn on this earth? If not how they increased in numbers? That’s so simple.. God created Jinn well before human… In my total understanding even before the creation of Earth and Heavens.. Coz chosen jinn who are assigned as Malaika and even out of them some are in real High status… Jibreal Michael, and other mail… They are not same like all malaika… Note when the trumpet is blown with the will of God not all will go to a state of unconscious except few… and even when Satan duped Adam, he put two words you can become malak or immortal… even the verse you brought 35:1 … whatever the wings (for me real) are it shows God give preference to malak to malak.. for some two wing,  three or four …. These are clear distinction within malak…

Malaika has both genders I don’t know… coz no quran verses to comprehend… Most probably not coz all the status are given to Males be it jinn or human… Prophets.. Malaika messengers, so malaika being a status, I most probably go for the option that there is no female… But there are unknown creatures in the heaven… it is not must that Malak should marry another malak… Like a prophet not necessary to marry another prophet..
But within quran we cannot come to conclusion that Malaika marries or not having children or not and if they marry whom they marry… God knows.. Not relevant to this topic either…




tutti_frutti

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #77 on: August 05, 2020, 09:33:53 PM »
salam jkhan

i most definitely believe that malaika and jinn are actual creations and absolutely not fantasy

i do agree with you that perhaps iblis was a malaika and then when he disobeyed The God he was stripped from malaika status to that of jinn. i was merely saying that the berse says “he was” and not “he became
however i am not sure malaika is just a status as per my understanding, nothing in the Quran mentions that it is just a status

i very much disagree with you about creation. The God definately created existence by Himself, no question or doubt in that
and nothing in the Quran says otherwise
i think we definately should not start guessing especially about what concerns The God

"whoever is an enemy to The God, and His angels and His messengers, and jibreel and mikael - then, The God is an enemy of the disbelievers." (2, 98)

in the above verse, jibreel and mikael are mentioned separately from angels and as such in my opinion jibril and michael are perhaps not malaika

yes i believe that angels have literally different number of wings too, but whether that means difference in status i do not know, all i understand is that it is a difference in creation and The God increases in creation whom He wills

i cannot say that malak just means status, and i definately do not think that humans can also be malak (why would we think that? or why would we think malal is just a status?)

i alao understand that malaika are only males and definately no females

that was my understanding :)

anyways thanx for your reply

peace brother

ayman

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #78 on: August 11, 2020, 06:44:46 PM »
Hope you are doing well. I have been searching for some answers in this forum I went eventually all the way back since the inception of this forum. I had the pleasure to read your articles and understanding of the cube and other important topics. There was an article that Wakas gave a link to, but i think the links dont work prior to 2003, so I was hoping you still had that artice. I'm not sure about the name of the article, but it was along the lines of the bond or commitment or contract between mankind and God. In the end I was looking answers regarding Hell fire (may we all be saved from that terrible pusnishment by our dear God).
If it's not too much, I was hoping you could answer my question of whether Hell is forever, and how it is justified. Please see my link:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611032.0
Thank you for your contribution/time.

Peace Enquiry,

I think the article about the trust might be somewhere on the forum. If it was written back in 2003 then my understanding probably evolved since then :)

I tried to answer your question about hell in your post.

Peace,

Ayman 

ayman

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #79 on: August 11, 2020, 07:15:55 PM »
Peace Tutti Futti,

what do you mean angels (malak) is just a status?? a status given to whom?? and what makes you think that it is just a status?? 😊

Angel doesn't mean "malak". See 3:26 where "mlk" (controller/owner) is clearly a status that is given and can be taken away by the god. This is also the only way to explain how Iblis was a "malak" and then he lost this status when he disobeyed the god and didn't submit to humankind.

Quote
when The God tells the angels He wants to create humans on earth, to whom is He speaking??

He is speaking to various creatures to whom he gave control. Those creatures once they are given control are not considered part of the creatures in the heavens and the earth (see 16:49).

Quote
unless mistaken i remember there is a verse where The God says that the heavens will be filled with angels on judgement day ... what are these angels that will fill the heavens on the day of resurrection??

Those are controllers not "angels" wearing white and with halos over their head as in Christian mythology.

Quote
who will carry the throne of The God if not 8 angels??

The throne of the god is also on water (see 11:7) and it encompasses the heaven and the earth (see 2:255). In other words, the god's throne is on all water in the heavens and the earth. Everything alive is created from water. So everything alive carries the throne of the god. On the day of the account when everything is dead eight controllers will carry the throne.

Quote
or in the following verse 5 of surah 45
“almost might the heavens above be rent asunder while the angels hymn the praise of their Lord and ask forgiveness for those on the earth. Lo! Allah, He is the Forgiver, the Merciful.”
when The God says that angels seek forgiveness for those on earth... what do you think these angels are???

They are controllers who the god gave control to.

Quote
my point, it is quite obvious that angels are separate creatures and the jinn as well
surah 34 verse 14
“Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the jinn realized that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.”
how does imagination even fit in the above verse?

The human imagination doesn't know the hidden side of the universe because it is not part of that hidden side (unlike controllers).

Quote
jinn are made from fire, what does imagination being made of fire even mean??

Imagination is brainwaves, energy (symbolically fire).

Quote
what makes you think that verse 3.26 is talking about angel as a status??? when i read the verse i understsnd quite clearly The God is speaking about anyone He gives sovereignty to which includes human kings, there is no mention of being about malaika

Whether human controller/owner on earth or controller/owner at the god, it is the same principal. Do you doubt that the god bestows "mlk"/control ownership on all and can take it away from any creature?

Quote
again, what made you think angel is just a status?? and if it is a status, to whom is it given?? who are these creatures that are given such status???

Any creature the god wants.

Quote
iblees is not a source of anything...
the only source of everything is The God
everything is from Him

The god is the source of all truth. He is not the source of falsehood. The human fantasy (jinn) is the only source of falsehood.

Quote
also, unless mistaken, i remember there is a verse where The God said He created the human with his virtues and vices

Yes. Virtue is the ability to make our fantasy submit to us while vice is falling under the control of our fantasy.

Quote
the devil makes false promises, lies about The God, misleads etc

Exactly, the out of control fantasy (devil) does all that. It is the only source of falsehood in the universe. 

Quote
i understand the source of everything is The God, and only He permits things to exist (falsehood existing is a permission from Him as well)

Falsehood doesn't exist. Falsehood is just a fantasy. Whether we imagine the earth is flat or not this doesn't change the truth/reality. Whether we imagine that spinning 7 times around a cube in Mecca will wipe our sins and return us like newborn this will not change truth/reality.

Peace,

Ayman