Author Topic: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven  (Read 6866 times)

jkhan

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2020, 07:15:34 PM »
Where do you think lies come from? According to the great reading, they come from satan, correct?

It is a fact that the human imagination is the only source of falsehood in the universe.

Peace,

Ayman

I am afraid it is not debate but deviation...

Finally... Let me tell you..
God said to His malaika I am gonna place khalifa on Earth.. Malaika said they will shed blood...
Has God created Men at this time? No.. But planning to create..
But How did malaika know Men will shed blood..?
Had Iblees fallen at this time?  No.. After Adam's creation and order to submit only iblees fallen...
So how did malaika knew?
Coz malaika knew they are a creature and not being tested.. And if put to test then will begin trouble.. So it is human inner nature that makes him shed blood...to shed blood human has to be as evil as he can.. They knew it.. So evil is within human not iblees's.. Iblees whisper that's all..
Iblees story is later addition.. Malaika never knew that iblees would deny God.. And He will become enemy to khalifa on Earth and become fantasy ..
Even before the fantasy (jinn as per you) is fallen malaika predicted human shed blood indicates clearly that human heart is the key... If that corrupts he is lost.. God sealed disbelievrs heart from guidance.. So when no guidance vulnerable for any act... No fantasy..

What if iblees didn't fall,  will not Allah create Adam?  What if no iblees no hell?  All will be there.. Human will deny God whether there is iblees or not...  God started create human to test not based on iblees


If you are happy with fantasy I am not here to bring anymore explanation.. But my only wish is to expose truth by God..  In case if my understanding is wrong may Allah let me understand truth somehow .. Be it what Ayman explains truth may God expose to me and let me comprehend.. Truth is one and there is no second truth to truth..

Houriya

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2020, 11:16:02 PM »
If you agree that there are allegorical verses then by definition allegories address the imagination.

These verses are addressed to our heart to understand their meaning.
 

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Also, the term is actually used in several other passages and not only in 20:66. It is used to denote haughtiness/arrogance is 4:36, 31:18, and 57:23.  Of course, haughtiness/arrogance is a product of the human fantasy.

Everything we do is governed by thought.
I created a thread dedicated to thought, inspiration and creativity :
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611105.0

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It is also used directly in relation to Iblis/"jinn" in 17:64: ... and bring on them with your fantasies and your foot...
 

17:64    "And entice whoever you can of them with your voice, and mobilize all your forces / cavalry /alkhayl and men against them, and you may share with them in their money and children, and promise them." But the devil promises nothing but deceit.

Alkayl doesn't mean imagination =  khayal, but  forces / cavalry.

I had already said it before, I think the ego is our invisible companion of which the reading speaks.
The ego is always right, wants to have the last word, believes that it can control everything, which is at the origin of the exhaustion of humans.

When the human is identified with a thought, with the physical body, with goods , money, children, professional, family situation..etc he becomes proud, liar, violent, stingy, he think he is powerful ... etc

Consciousness, attention, connection purifies our inner state
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611098.0

Men among the jin and humans both think.

72:6    "And there were men from among mankind who used to seek help from the men among the Jinn, but they only increased them in sin."
72:7    "And they thought as you thought, that God would not send anyone."

The word men/rijal has a literal meaning for both humans and jin.
 
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Imagination comes first before invention. We first imagine flying machines and then when we make this fantasy submit to our reason with the truth in the laws of aerodynamics we invent airplanes. On the other hand, if our fantasy controls us then we would go crazy and jump from a high building thinking we could flap our arms and fly.

When we are in a state of mental void, we receive inspiration to create directly from the infinite source of creativity.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611105.0
 
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So according to your physical interpretation someone who is physically blind and deaf is destined for hell!

That's not what I said, to sum up, a blind man with a healthy heart is able to understand unlike one who sees with a sick, veiled, sealed heart.

Peace

Houriya

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2020, 01:00:05 AM »
91:7    And a soul / nafs and what He made.
91:8    So He inspired / alhamaha him (nafs) his immorality, as well as his piety!.

Where do you think lies come from? According to the great reading, they come from satan, correct?

It is a fact that the human imagination is the only source of falsehood in the universe.

Peace

jkhan

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2020, 05:42:19 AM »
Brother Ayman.. Peace..

I think you have not answered one of my key questions.. Unless I missed.. From my end it is imperative to pose certain questions based on your answer...

Question was..

Is the Day of ressurection  literal / actual / physical ?


This is concerned with your official acceptance of Hell not a place but a  state ...

If you are still in this forum,  pls respond.. So that I would in sha Allah clarify why Hell is Literal..
Just a reply of Yes or No is even enough to my question..

Your quotes about .

"Hell is literal but its descriptions are allegorical"

"Hell is not a place but is a state of no life and no death. It is a state of being trapped in one’s own worst fantasies. It is like a constant eternal nightmare.."


Very funny your quotes..  ;D

ayman

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #64 on: August 01, 2020, 11:55:21 AM »
God said to His malaika I am gonna place khalifa on Earth.. Malaika said they will shed blood...
Has God created Men at this time? No.. But planning to create..
But How did malaika know Men will shed blood..?
Had Iblees fallen at this time?  No.. After Adam's creation and order to submit only iblees fallen...
So how did malaika knew?

The "malaika"/controllers know the future. They also knew the future in 18:80 However, the future (time) is not linear but is multi-dimensional. So it is dependent on our choices.

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If you are happy with fantasy I am not here to bring anymore explanation.. But my only wish is to expose truth by God..  In case if my understanding is wrong may Allah let me understand truth somehow .. Be it what Ayman explains truth may God expose to me and let me comprehend.. Truth is one and there is no second truth to truth..

No matter what you are happy with you know that the human fantasy is the ONLY source of falsehood in the universe. This is why you didn't answer my question about the source of falsehood.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #65 on: August 01, 2020, 12:14:27 PM »
These verses are addressed to our heart to understand their meaning.

Unlike the brain, the heart doesn't have reasoning/understanding ability. The only way to understand allegorical imagery is via the imagination. The imagination then triggers feelings (the heart). If we take allegorical passages literally then we will not understand them.
 
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Everything we do is governed by thought.
I created a thread dedicated to thought, inspiration and creativity :
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611105.0

Thank you. I will try to check it.
 
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17:64    "And entice whoever you can of them with your voice, and mobilize all your forces / cavalry /alkhayl and men against them, and you may share with them in their money and children, and promise them." But the devil promises nothing but deceit.
Alkayl doesn't mean imagination =  khayal, but  forces / cavalry.

Remember the "get off your high horse" allegory. Horses in the past were a status symbol for nobility. The meaning of "khayl" is derived from arrogance "mokhtal" which is a product of the imagination "khayal".  Also, your translation of "men" is inaccurate. The word is "rijlk" not "rijalk". 

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I had already said it before, I think the ego is our invisible companion of which the reading speaks.
The ego is always right, wants to have the last word, believes that it can control everything, which is at the origin of the exhaustion of humans.

The ego is the product of the imagination that inflates our ego.

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When the human is identified with a thought, with the physical body, with goods , money, children, professional, family situation..etc he becomes proud, liar, violent, stingy, he think he is powerful ... etc

All lies in the universe come from the human imagination. His imagination makes him proud and he "imagines" he is powerful.

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Consciousness, attention, connection purifies our inner state
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611098.0

Yes being conscious and attentive to the real you (that is part of the truth in the universe) allows you to control your imagination and make it submit to you.

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Men among the jin and humans both think.
72:6    "And there were men from among mankind who used to seek help from the men among the Jinn, but they only increased them in sin."
72:7    "And they thought as you thought, that God would not send anyone."
The word men/rijal has a literal meaning for both humans and jin.

Haven't you heard of imaginary men? Don't Sunnis seek help from an imaginary man in Hadiths named Mohamed who is not the real Mohamed? Don't Christian seek help from an imaginary man named Jesus who is not the real Jesus?   
 
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When we are in a state of mental void, we receive inspiration to create directly from the infinite source of creativity.
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611105.0


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That's not what I said, to sum up, a blind man with a healthy heart is able to understand unlike one who sees with a sick, veiled, sealed heart.

Since the heart is not the physical organ people "understand" with then the passage is clearly allegorical. I am sure there are lots of idolaters who have healthy hearts while there are many monotheists with high cholesterol and high blood pressure and physically unhealthy hearts :). Again, you are confirming that the passage is allegorical.   

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #66 on: August 01, 2020, 12:19:08 PM »
91:7    And a soul / nafs and what He made.
91:8    So He inspired / alhamaha him (nafs) his immorality, as well as his piety!.

Exactly, inspired its immorality and piety, not inspired its lies. Immorality happens when the self loses control and falls under the control if the imagination. The god is the truth and creates with the truth. The god doesn't inspire lies. The ONLY source of lies in the universe is the human imagination.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #67 on: August 01, 2020, 12:25:20 PM »
I think you have not answered one of my key questions.. Unless I missed.. From my end it is imperative to pose certain questions based on your answer...
Question was..

Is the Day of ressurection  literal / actual / physical ?

The descriptions of the day of resurrection in the great reading are clearly allegorical.

Quote
This is concerned with your official acceptance of Hell not a place but a  state ...
If you are still in this forum,  pls respond.. So that I would in sha Allah clarify why Hell is Literal..
Just a reply of Yes or No is even enough to my question..
Your quotes about .
"Hell is literal but its descriptions are allegorical"
"Hell is not a place but is a state of no life and no death. It is a state of being trapped in one’s own worst fantasies. It is like a constant eternal nightmare.."

Very funny your quotes..  ;D

If you think superficially then of course you will find it funny. However, if you think a little deeper and even take it physically then what physically gives the feeling of pain is not the fire but it is the electric signals from the nervous system to the brain. If the brain spontaneously produces a signal that is equal to the maximum pain it is able to register then this will be the worst pain it feels and worse than any physical fire. This is a physical scientific fact.
 
Peace,

Ayman

jkhan

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #68 on: August 01, 2020, 06:15:29 PM »
The "malaika"/controllers know the future. They also knew the future in 18:80 However, the future (time) is not linear but is multi-dimensional. So it is dependent on our choices.

No matter what you are happy with you know that the human fantasy is the ONLY source of falsehood in the universe. This is why you didn't answer my question about the source of falsehood.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman

I don't know about universe coz I don't believe in it .. But human fantasy or imagination is not the only source of falsehood..
Even you agree or not before human a malak was in falsehood on his own... What was the falsehood? Falsehood was his arrogance.. Arrogance is not the right choice for created things... Arrogance comes coz of falsehood... And other falsehood the m as kal did was denying the Creator's command .. That's manifestly his own decision..  No human is involved in his decision...
Third falsehood is he decided to revenge.. Revenge on all God's creation which is created for Testing... Revenge coz he chosed the falsehood on his own and he knew the outcome of falsehood.. So.. He decided to revenge who was directly or indirectly reason for his falsehood.. Up until he was in elite group..

So.. He got a a respite from his Lord to accomplish what he willed what he chosen the falsehood wrong path... Human has nothing to do with it.. Coz it was not human who did all this...
Human waa only a trap to it but not all.  That fallen malak (iblees)  is like advertisement giving attraction to go for it...  Human is not the only source of falsehood...  All falsehood started well before human ever did a falsehood.. Humans first ever falsehood is denying the order of God...
Try to grasp it...
Human is given his own faculties to think and choose right and leave wrong ... That faculty is within himself... How he uses is his own business...  Every individual is questioned coz he is responsible for what he does..  Human is not human without brain... Or dath matter if human loses his thinking power he is no more human.. Don't you see when brain fails  and they act like child or totally against to their character. Not even able to understand anything.. That all part of human... So acting like a child is not his genuine choice but one faculty fails.  . So fantasy or imagination is human choice using the faculty he is provided with...
He may go wrong listening to the deception(whispers) of Satan or listening to his fellow human deception. But it is his choice... Within himself..

Regarding your point of malak.. I am sorry I have given my full understanding of Quran what malak is anf if you deviate thata your fantasy.. Agaun I say malak is a creature jinn created by fire and not non existing status for which you have not brought any proof and you won't and you can't bring from Quran..

jkhan

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #69 on: August 01, 2020, 06:44:46 PM »

The descriptions of the day of resurrection in the great reading are clearly allegorica
l.

If you think superficially then of course you will find it funny. However, if you think a little deeper and even take it physically then what physically gives the feeling of pain is not the fire but it is the electric signals from the nervous system to the brain. If the brain spontaneously produces a signal that is equal to the maximum pain it is able to register then this will be the worst pain it feels and worse than any physical fire. This is a physical scientific fact.
 
Peace,

Ayman
Peace brother...

I hope you are thorough with the meaning of allegory or parable to say description of day of ressurection is "clearly allegorical "

Is this earth and heavens real?  Yes it is coz we live on it we see it as long as we can tangibly observe it...

So what could be if it is replaced..
14:48 "on the Day the earth will be replaced by another earth, and the heavens [as well], and all creatures will come out before Allah , the One, the Prevailing."

Is above allegorical?

39:68 "And the Trumpet will be blown, and all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth will swoon away, except him whom Allah will. Then it will blown a second time and behold, they will be standing, looking on, And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord and the Book will be placed (open) and the Prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward, and it will be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged"

What allegory you find here to explain it in any other way other that how God has worded it.. Do anyone need explanation over these verses if it is allegorical?

I don't see not only in the above verses but any verse of day of ressurection any allegory but obvious verses directly speaking..

Unfortunately your fantasy allow you to think allegorical..

If day of ressurection is real what lies ahead is Janna and Jahanna.. From reality to just stay of mind.. No way.. Day of ressurection is real so do Janna and Jahanna  . ...

I can bring all the verses of day of ressurection and hell and Janna.. But useless for you coz you will remain saying allegorical... At least debate point of view positive readers would get an idea what day of ressurection is and hell and Janna is..
That's all..

Your second point I said funny coz both the statements crystal clearly contradicts.. Any reader will understand  your statement goes in two directions..