Author Topic: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven  (Read 2685 times)

Jafar

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2020, 10:56:52 PM »
It is really hard to define any "creation" as being totally separate.

Everything is actually connected.
As actually in absolute reality only God exist.

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There is no such things in the great reading as a specie called angels. The term MLK ملك means owner/controller.

In Biblical Hebrew, the noun "Mel’akah" (מְלָאכָה), meaning "work", "occupation" or "craftsmanship".
So yes it might be a 'role' that is being assigned to.
 
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Yes. We should not take the human imagination (the source of all falsehood in the universe) and its descendants as allies other than the god (the source of all truth in the universe).

Indeed all of our technology, including submarines are a product of the human imagination when it submits with the truth in the laws of fluid dynamics.

The interpretation that "jinn" is the imagination is empirically verifiable and is well aligned with all the passages in the great reading. Certainly what entices people to lie and do evil and is the only source of falsehood in the universe is the human imagination ... we all know it for certain... look inside you... you know it is not a ghost or red guy holding a fork or a serpent or any other mythical creature :) 

Every creation is actually a product of God's imagination anyway (including human) it's not entirely correct to label anything as either 'falsehood' and 'truth' as it can be both, depending on the context and point of view. Anything on this universe can be 'falsehood' or 'imaginary'  when put in certain context or point of view.

A similitude might be, jafar which is the product of my imagination and ayman which is the product of your imagination. In reality jafar and ayman do not exist, they only exist within the universe, or the context of this forum. When this web forum is dead and definitely so will they.

Extending on the concept further... beyond the scope of merely web forum universe.

What if I tell you that human, or should I say the spirit / consciousness of the human can also create things or should I say 'personality' as a product of it's own thought and imagination?
And yes it can be a 'ghost' or 'red guy holding a fork' or 'serpent' as well, depending on one's thought or imagination.
By ghost here it mean (one of) the personality that the spirit once being manifested or temporarily being attached to in this universe.

How it happened are being explained in this video, and also a way where you can 'see' those 'personalities'.

Heart Chakra-Problems& Possibilites- Sadhguru
https://youtu.be/2CWJGKvQRU0?t=700

But definitely one should not be 'afraid' of them let alone 'worship' them


jkhan

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2020, 11:56:04 PM »
"The fantasy and the human are indeed two different creations that are bonded together. While the human is a living creature, the fantasy is not a living creature since it is not made of water but of fire."

Peace brother  Ayman ..

Above is your quote.. You have completely derailed from Quran to give such assumptions... In fact you are in a fantasy world. 

Jinn is fantasy? And not a living creature? And hell is not literal?

God was literally communicating with malaika (creature Jinn but status)...  Was God talking to fantasy and unreal?..  What was it that Mariam and Ibrahim and his wife saw and communicated?   Were they real or fantasy?  Aren't the malaika Jinns?  And created of fire?  for you not... Okay..
What was that great dialogue between God and Iblees?  Was it real?  Why iblees claimed he was created by fire while still he was in the status of malaika and why iblees said he is better than Adam just giving the reason of created by fire? All what iblees talked is fantasy ?

You got completely wrong to say human was created by water and jinn is by fire.. Brother  all living creature was created by water... Human by clay and jinn by fire... But water is the main source of creation.. Did iblees said he was created by fire and Adam was by water?

According to 2:285 .... We need to believe in Malaika..  Who are they?  Are they fantasy and unreal? Weren't they part and parcel of creation of this earth and heavens?
Who is Gibreal who  is Micheal ? Are they fantasy? 
Who are those who come to take our soul and beat on the faces?  Are they fantasy?  Aren't they real? Who are they who beg for pardon of us from God?  Who are they who goes up until the nearest heaven to steal the hearing and they were chased by fire?  Are these human fantasy?  What relation with them to human?
Who are those virgins whome no men or Jinn touched? Is it unreal fantasy not touched those virgins?
They all Jinn... Once again they all Jinn created by God by fire not by clay...

How can hell is not literal?  Why God need to replace the skin when it is burned?  Why there need guards of 19 in hell. Is this imagination?
What is day of ressurection if hell is imagination and unreal? Why God says day and night hell is shown to pharoa untill day of ressurection? 40:46.. why they wish to ransom earth full of gold to deliver them from hell...

With whome God was furious in verse 7:11-18?  So what was that promise to fill hell whoever followed Iblees? What is the respite iblees got until day of ressurection? So God ordered all the non existing fantasy of human to sujud Adam and one fantasy(iblees) denied? What a joke? Is hell unreal after reading all this?
To say jinn is fantasy of human and hell is not a place but a state of no life no death,  you need to deny the day of ressurection and you need to make it unreal...
On that day God questions.. And witnesses are brought and all our records are given to read...  Even messengers are questioned.. 5:116"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen."

Is the above verse imagination? Or Isa in a real day communicating to God infront of everyone saying that he never said to take him as God..  What a shame on those who said Jesus was God...  So hell is no place but state and probably heaven also and day of ressurection also.. All just imagination.. Aren't they?  Is that what you want to say? Is that what you understood what Quran says?
Better be with you that understanding.. May God save others from this misguiding..

Houriya

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2020, 12:39:37 AM »
Peace everyone,

Shaytan / jinn has no power over the believers. The angels bowed down to Adam except Iblee refused. It is an enemy to human beings. Submit it to us, I don't think it's our mission, don't follow it, yes we can.
When submitted to God alone, satan / jinn has no power over us.

14:22    And the devil said when the matter was complete: "God had promised you the promise of truth, and I promised you and broke my promise. And I had no power over you except that I invited you and you responded to me. So do not blame me, but blame yourselves; I cannot help you nor can you help me. I reject that you have set me up as a partner before this; the wicked will have a painful retribution."

Peace

Mohammed.

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2020, 03:49:31 AM »
peace all,

jinn & ins differences:
https://youtu.be/yd9D6togaxU
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

ayman

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2020, 08:24:59 AM »
"The fantasy and the human are indeed two different creations that are bonded together. While the human is a living creature, the fantasy is not a living creature since it is not made of water but of fire."

Peace brother  Ayman ..
Above is your quote.. You have completely derailed from Quran to give such assumptions... In fact you are in a fantasy world. 
Jinn is fantasy? And not a living creature?

Peace dear brother Jkhan,

According to the great reading every living thing is made of water. The "jinn" is made of fire. So according to the great reading the "jinn" are not a living thing.

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And hell is not literal?

Hell is literal but its descriptions are allegorical. This is just like "pain" is literal but how you feel pain is through electrical pulses transmitted to your brain cells through your nervous system. If your nervous system goes out of control and spontaneously transmits the worst pain that it can transmit then this would be the worst torture. 

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God was literally communicating with malaika (creature Jinn but status)...  Was God talking to fantasy and unreal?..  What was  hat Mariam and Ibrahim and his wife saw and communicated?   Were they real or fantasy?  Aren't the malaika Jinns?  And created of fire?  for you not... Okay..

The controllers aren't "jinn"/fantasy. Controller is just a role/status that the god appoints to any creature, living or not.

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What was that great dialogue between God and Iblees?  Was it real?  Why iblees claimed he was created by fire while still he was in the status of malaika and why iblees said he is better than Adam just giving the reason of created by fire? All what iblees talked is fantasy ?

The dialogue is real but Iblees certainly didn't speak it in Arabic. So the dialogue in the great reading is allegorical and this is why it is told in different words every time it is recounted in the great reading. 

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You got completely wrong to say human was created by water and jinn is by fire.. Brother  all living creature was created by water... Human by clay and jinn by fire... But water is the main source of creation.. Did iblees said he was created by fire and Adam was by water?

Living creatures are created from water. Clay/mud has water. Iblis is created from fire, so it is not a living thing. Simple.

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According to 2:285 .... We need to believe in Malaika..  Who are they?  Are they fantasy and unreal? Weren't they part and parcel of creation of this earth and heavens?

They are controllers. They are any creature (living or not) who the god decides to give the status/role of controller to. You could become a controller if the god decides to appoint you as one. The god can also take away this appointment/status like what happened with Iblis. Unlike "jinn"/fantasies, the controllers are part of the hidden. So if you were appointed as a controller by the god, that side of you would be hidden and to us you would still seem like a regular human being.
 
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Who is Gibreal who  is Micheal ? Are they fantasy?
Who are those who come to take our soul and beat on the faces?  Are they fantasy?  Aren't they real? Who are they who beg for pardon of us from God?  Who are they who goes up until the nearest heaven to steal the hearing and they were chased by fire?  Are these human fantasy?  What relation with them to human?

They are controllers. Not all controllers are fantasy. Only Iblis was a fantasy (jinn) which was given the status of controller and then he lost this status when he disobeyed the god.
 
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Who are those virgins whome no men or Jinn touched? Is it unreal fantasy not touched those virgins?
They all Jinn... Once again they all Jinn created by God by fire not by clay...

No such thing as virgins. Those are things that humans and the fantasies cannot grasp. This means that those things in heaven are better than anything you can fantasize. It is not all about sex.

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How can hell is not literal?  Why God need to replace the skin when it is burned?  Why there need guards of 19 in hell. Is this imagination?
What is day of ressurection if hell is imagination and unreal? Why God says day and night hell is shown to pharoa untill day of ressurection? 40:46.. why they wish to ransom earth full of gold to deliver them from hell...
With whome God was furious in verse 7:11-18?  So what was that promise to fill hell whoever followed Iblees? What is the respite iblees got until day of ressurection? So God ordered all the non existing fantasy of human to sujud Adam and one fantasy(iblees) denied? What a joke? Is hell unreal after reading all this?
To say jinn is fantasy of human and hell is not a place but a state of no life no death,  you need to deny the day of ressurection and you need to make it unreal...
On that day God questions.. And witnesses are brought and all our records are given to read...  Even messengers are questioned.. 5:116"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen."

Hell is literal. What is the worse thing you can imagine? This is hell.

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Is the above verse imagination? Or Isa in a real day communicating to God infront of everyone saying that he never said to take him as God..  What a shame on those who said Jesus was God...  So hell is no place but state and probably heaven also and day of ressurection also.. All just imagination.. Aren't they?  Is that what you want to say? Is that what you understood what Quran says?
Better be with you that understanding.. May God save others from this misguiding..

I hope I clarified for you.

Peace,

Ayman

Houriya

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2020, 09:36:01 AM »
Peace Ayman,

You did not give your own understanding without interpretation or assumption  the verses that I quoted before.

we can start with these 2 verses :

72:1
Say: "It has been inspired to me that a group of Jinn were listening." They said: "We have heard a magnificent Qur'an!"

7:179
And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like hoofed animals; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.

Thanks.

Peace,

From the following verses, I understand Aljinn et aljinns. As two different creations.
Like human beings, Aljinn have feet, hearts, eyes, ears, offspring, soldiers, nations, they speak, warn, think, create and have received messengers among them.

72:1
Say: "It has been inspired to me that a group of Jinn were listening." They said: "We have heard a magnificent Qur'an!"
72:2
"It guides to what is correct, so we believed in it, and we will not set up anyone with our Lord."
72:3
"And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord, He has not taken a wife nor a son."
72:4
"And the foolish one among us used to say lies about God."
72:5
"And we had thought that neither mankind nor the Jinn would ever utter a lie against God."
72:6
"And there were men from among mankind who used to seek help from the men among the Jinn, but they only increased them in sin / rahaqan /fatigue, exhaustion."

6:112
And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet-human and Jinn devils-to inspire each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.

6:128
And the Day We gather them all: "O assembly of Jinn, you have managed to take many from mankind." Their supporters from mankind said: "Our Lord, we have indeed enjoyed one another, and we have reached our destiny to which You delayed us." He said: "The Fire is your dwelling, abiding therein, except as your Lord wishes." Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable.

6:130
"O assembly of Jinn and mankind, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and narrate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?" They said: "Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;" and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness upon themselves that they were rejecters.

7:38
He said: "Enter with the multitude of nations before you from mankind and Jinn to the Fire!" Every time a nation entered, it cursed its sister nation, until they are all gathered inside it; then the last of them says to the first: "Our Lord, these are the ones who have misguided us, so give them double the retribution of the Fire!" He replied: "Each will receive double, but you do not know."

7:179
And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like hoofed animals; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.

18:50
And We said to the angels: "Yield to Adam." So they all yielded except for Satan. He was of the Jinn, he disobeyed the order of his Lord. Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy? Miserable for the transgressors is the substitute!

27:17
And the soldiers of Solomon were gathered, comprising of mankind and Jinn and birds, for they were to be spread out.

27:39
A powerful being from among the Jinn said: "I will bring it to you before you rise from your station. For I am strong and trustworthy."

34:12
And for Solomon the wind was given, traveling one month coming and one month going, and We caused a spring of tar to flow for him. And from among the Jinn are those that worked for him with the permission of his Lord; and any one of them who turns from Our commands, We shall cause him to taste the retribution of the Fire.

41:25
And We assigned to them associates who adorned their present and past actions-and the sentence was deserved by them-as it was for the nations before them of Jinn and mankind; they were losers.

41:29
And those who have rejected will say: "Our Lord, show us those who have misled us from among the Jinn and mankind so we can trample them under our feet, so that they would be the lowest."

46:18
These are the ones against whom the sentence has been deserved in nations who had come before them of mankind and Jinn; they are the losers.

46:29
And We dispatched to you a company of Jinn, in order to let them listen to the Qur'an. So when they arrived there, they said: "Pay attention." Then, when it was finished, they returned to their people, to warn them.

55:33
O assembly of Jinn and mankind, if you can penetrate the boundaries of the heavens and the earth, then go ahead and penetrate. You will not penetrate without might.

Peace

ayman

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2020, 01:56:25 PM »
Shaytan / jinn has no power over the believers. The angels bowed down to Adam except Iblee refused. It is an enemy to human beings. Submit it to us, I don't think it's our mission, don't follow it, yes we can.
When submitted to God alone, satan / jinn has no power over us.
14:22    And the devil said when the matter was complete: "God had promised you the promise of truth, and I promised you and broke my promise. And I had no power over you except that I invited you and you responded to me. So do not blame me, but blame yourselves; I cannot help you nor can you help me. I reject that you have set me up as a partner before this; the wicked will have a painful retribution."

The original command of the god was for the "jinn"/fantasy to submit to us. Accomplishing this original command is what restores balance and makes BOTH "jinn"/fantasy and humans serve the god:

51:56. And I did not create the fantasies and the humans except to serve me.

Peace,

Ayman

jkhan

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2020, 08:07:21 PM »
Peace brother Ayman..

Below your comment "A"...

"The original command of the god was for the "jinn"/fantasy to submit to us"


So you accepted all who submitted to Adam on that great day are Jinn coz command was not only to Iblees but to entire Jinn who were on the status of Malaika.. Do you agree?  You have to.. That's Quran..
So one thing is clear Jinn are another creature who are to obey God...  But out of those jins who are elite with the status of malaika almost faultless except Iblees...  Not all Jinns are malaika...  Malaika are not sent to this earth to be tested,  coz they always obey god and surrender and applaud.. Such no need test while they already obeyed...
Every other jinn and new creation of human disobeyed God... So gave a chance to reform...

Okay since all the malaika are physical creature called jinn, you have to discard the fantasy... Some of them rounding the Arsh of God... Some of those Jinn come to the earth in the form of human as Messengers.. These are not non existing fantasy.. But real creatures... They can talk,  they can feel,  they can do whatever human are capable of doing...
Unfortunately, your fantasy doesn't know everything what Adam knew.. When Adam named what he was taught by God,  fantasy failed... And withdrew...

Below your comment "B"...

"They are controllers. Not all controllers are fantasy. Only Iblis was a fantasy (jinn) "

Do you see how contradictory your comments are... Note comment A with B... You clearly accepted jinn are separate creatures and out of them iblees was different..

Brother when God says He created(khalaq) it means He created a physical tangible creature... Whatever it can be.. be it human or Jin or animal or trees or star or sun or moon or rain or clouds whatever... Human is a full system creature... Not each and every organ of human is separate creature but ONE...  With it.. it is called human.. Not for only hand we call human or only for eye OR pain we call human.. All together is human.. Don't separate it to atoms..

God never created anything which doesn't exist..thats so shame to say so... How can one claim that doesn't exist is a creation.. Be visible OR invisible but if it exists that is a creation..

For you fantasy Dosen't exist but still a creation.. What logic is that brother..?

Carefully read jinn verses and surrounding verses...
It's a physical creature... Status of malaika was not given in non existing... But they do live.. They have physics.. Don't you get that within Quran?  How can a status be given to non existing..

Note below verse..

46:29 "And [mention, O Muhammad], when We directed to you a few of the jinn, listening to the Qur'an. And when they attended it, they said, "Listen quietly." And when it was concluded, they went back to their people as warners."

In this verse..Are these Jinns seems not existing fantasy to you?

Look at the wording...
Few of the jinn.. Not all it means physical .
They can listen.. Why they listen to QURAN.. They talk... They say to listen with much attention quietly.. When MOHAMED finished reading they left to their men and women to warn them with what they heard.. ... So they carry a message to a community.. Herald.. All these signs are of a physical creature other than human...

Are these fantasy? Mohammed even didn't know until God told so... So no connection with those who attended and Muhammad.. It's not Mohamed's fantasy..
Mohammed was the messenger to human of that society.. And who are these Jinns taking the message and going to their own people to spread without even knowing to MOHAMED. .?

How do you call just coz jinn are created by fire it is non existing? 
Fire is a tangible object.. Out of it if anything is created then it is a physical creature...
Still you are adamant.. God created every living thing with water.. Trees animal birds human jinn.. All with water... So jinn also a living creature that's incontrovertible coz Malika are jinn... And they do exist..
Again I repeat.. God says we created well before jinn by fire and later human by clay... It's more than enough evidence that both are creatures... But God says every living thing is created by water... Note carefully pls.. In the same verse had God stated in this manner "we created before Jinn by fire and human by water" then we can all comprehend that there is a difference.. Coz in other verses God says every living creature was created by water.. So we can differentiate why God said jinn created by fire while every living thing created by water.. Then you can think may be jinn is not a living thing.. But that's not the wording..

Iblees's (Jinn) only intention was to divert those who follow God.. Reason is God misguided him.. First of all accept that.. God sent iblees astray that iblees accepted.. That arrogance and the boasting of being higher level creature being created by fire made iblees to request for respite until the day of ressurection... Why?  It is coz he wants all to fall in his trap...  Did we human requested a respite?  No..  Another misled creature did.. Of course we have to overcome iblees and his gang.. But it doesn't mean they are non existing fantasies.. To overcome God sent guidance and guides whom He wills..

Imagination is part and parcel of system.. Without imagination nothing works... To understand the right and wrong imagination play the role.. But making the jinn as imagination and fantasy is completely and manifestly against the teaching of Quran..

But quran is very clear and no doubt...

Brother it is not my imagination or fantasy to go the extreme heaven and listen secretly to what those elite do talk... It is not my fantasy to get chased by fire..  And it is not my fantasy to call it is well gaurded by powerful.. .. That's why they are a creature called mean Jinn trying to listen to other elite jinn..

I would like to add this verse as well..

2:30. And when the god said to the controllers: “I am making in the earth a leader”. They said: “Do you make in it that who corrupts in it and sheds blood while we exalt with your praise and sanctify for you?” He said: “I know what you don’t know.

This was a discourse between malaika and God well before the creation of Human...  We don't know with how many malaika God commented this particular dialogue..  Lets hope all of them...  That include iblees as well... What their concern was that "were they not enough as creature abd why need human?  And they are free of trouble making as well and fully obedient....  So these Jinns in the elite state of malaika are fantasy? Nothing but real... Try to grasp it...

Anyway.. I know people can be trapped with wrong understanding of Quran.. Sometimes it takes time to come to right understanding or perhaps die with wrong understanding... God guides and explains Quran's meaning.. So be patient and research..
May God guide us to right path..

Houriya

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2020, 01:55:46 AM »
Peace

Does rijal have an allegorical or literal meaning ?

72:6
"And there were men/rijal from among mankind who used to seek help from the men/rijal among the Jinn, but they only increased them in sin."

Peace

ayman

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Re: The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2020, 08:37:53 AM »
Peace Houriya,
we can start with these 2 verses :
72:1
Say: "It has been inspired to me that a group of Jinn were listening." They said: "We have heard a magnificent Qur'an!"

Do you agree that the great reading has allegorical passages?
Do you agree that allegorical passages speak to the imagination?
If your answer is YES to both then this passage describes a group of humans listening with their fantasies to allegorical passages. 

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7:179
And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like hoofed animals; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.

This passage makes it clear that humans and their imaginations are tied together. Do people understand with their hearts? How about physically blind people, are they destined to hell? How about physically deaf people, are they destined to hell? The passage is clearly allegorical, addressing the imagination. 

Peace,

Ayman