Poll

what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?

being on the 1st qiblah
1 (16.7%)
being on the 2nd qiblah
1 (16.7%)
changing from 1st to 2nd qiblah
3 (50%)
unsure
0 (0%)
other (if other please specify what in a post)
1 (16.7%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Author Topic: what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?  (Read 1377 times)

Mohammed.

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Re: what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2020, 11:41:49 AM »
peace Wakas,

To my knowledge, there is no any verse that says to the prophet to turn towards 1st qiblah. Hence it's evident that God did not order it.

But if you are claiming that the prophet and his followers were on the 1st qiblah because God instructed/ordered him/them to do so, Where did God gave such an instruction in the Qur'an?
(i.e. to turn towards the 1st qiblah. Like in 2:144,149-150 -where God says to turn towards almasjid alharam).
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Wakas

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Re: what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2020, 04:05:49 AM »
peace Mohammed,

You have made a bold claim, i.e. when Quran uses "We made...", "God guided" etc it doesn't necessarily mean it's something from God or God wanted. Since you never brought any evidence from Quran you have defaulted to the following line of argument: command to follow 1st qiblah is not explicitly stated thus it's not from God. This will raise a few theological/conceptual issues for you to reconcile e.g. if it was not from God then from where did the messenger and his community get the authority/guidance to follow such a qiblah? Did the messenger just make it up? You believe it means "prayer direction" so if it was not from God, who decided upon the direction if it was not God? Interestingly this issue came up recently in a debate with Edip Yuksel. Long story short, there are explanations but it depends on which viewpoint you want to go with and if you find them acceptable or not.

Perhaps you should ask yourself, what if you cannot find any example in Quran wherein it uses "And We made..." etc and it's not from God. Will you still hold your view?

In any case, let's examine your line of argument. On the surface it seems reasonable but I recommend you read (and re-read) my article in which this is discussed:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

It is discussed therein.

It is not explicit in Quran what the "1st qiblah" was but as I have mentioned I'm only using the terms "1st qiblah", "2nd qiblah" to make the article easier to follow. In reality this wording is impractical (and somewhat stupid) as there can be many qiblah, each person can have their own qiblah, and one's qiblah could change even in the same day. Why is that? Well the word is tied to "wijhatun" which means "course/goal/motive/direction" and obviously this can change frequently for people. So it's not quite fitting to make explicit a "1st qiblah", it wouldn't sound right, although it is obvious for any reader of Quran what the messenger community at the time focussed on, i.e. what their course/goal/motive/direction was.

However, we can glean lots of info about it in the verses, as discussed in the article.

But let's get back to basics. If you are among a nascent messenger community, and the people around you have differing beliefs, when you spread your message you will get opposition, argument, hostility. This is clear from Quran this is what happened. The message (and thus you) are antagonistic to them. This was the 1st phase (or qiblah/focus if you will) of the messenger community. This was over years and naturally this takes it toll on a person, just like I'm sure it did on the messenger and some of his community. After years their numbers grew but they still needed to progress, it was still a struggle. The messenger was seeking guidance [2:144], on the next step, and he received it. God commanded him and his followers to utilise a vehicle through which would complete God's favour upon them and it did this perfectly. It was actually ingenious in my opinion.

Many people cannot answer so many issues raised in the article, they cannot connect the dots and realise "al masjid al haram" and "hajj" etc are only mentioned in the latter chapters (after these change of qiblah verses), a mere coincidence, they cannot answer why does Quran say "from wherever thou depart/exit..." as if to imply travelling to another location, why does it talk about uniting people, they have no clue as to why it will result in no debate, what the big test was in 2:143, why the change pleases the messenger, why is shatra used here and nowhere else, why is there a fear of monetary loss in excluding people from AMAH, what does 48:27 mean, what does 17:1 mean, why is 17:60 a trial for others etc etc etc. In the dedicated discussion thread you will find not one person came up answers, but dont take my word for it, read the entire thread for yourself. It's only been 7 years maybe they need more time?
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

good logic

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Re: what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2020, 04:52:57 AM »
Peace Wakas.
It seems you do not need any answer as you have a good idea of what went on regarding the verses.
Then you say this, quote:
"you will find not one person came up answers, but dont take my word for it, read the entire thread for yourself. It's only been 7 years maybe they need more time?".

Why are you even relying on answers from others? Or is this not the case?
Are you satisfied with your understanding? That should be the only concern really.

While I appreciate reading your views, I do not see what others deduce or explain as an issue, if one is satisfied with their own understanding..
You shared your view and asked the difficult and easy questions and that is all you can do.
When others give you their views,then you reply like you are doing .
And so far you have done by not accepting their answers which is fair enough.
The issues that I see is what are:
Hajj.
Masjid Al Haram.
Qiblah.
The Salat.
... and many more .
What is the relationship with these ? And what is Qoran instructing?
And this is where more questions arise, but at the end of the day, each will have to satisfy their own side /enquiry. This is where I see the  main.problem.
 But like Qoran says-Each follows the direction they choose-. So in reality it is not really a problem if one is continuing their research.
Thanks for your threads that at least ask so many questions.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

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Wakas

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Re: what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2020, 07:13:53 AM »
peace GL,
Why are you even relying on answers from others? Or is this not the case?
Are you satisfied with your understanding? That should be the only concern really.

I am fairly satisfied with my understanding however in an ideal world I'd like to see discussion with actual evidence being put on the table (for the various views), including addressing issues raised and then weighing up which view is strongest. This is what advances the learning process (for myself and others).

And of course I agree we are ultimately only responsible for our own self.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Mohammed.

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Re: what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2020, 02:39:01 AM »
peace Wakas,

Everything is from God only, He is the ultimate controller, EVERYTHING is a result of His judgement/will.

what if you cannot find any example in Quran wherein it uses "And We made..." etc and it's not from God.

I did not say it's not from God. I said:
...and God made things so..

I.e., God let things happen in this way/ God let them choose the 1st qiblah (but they choosed it by their own) just for the purpose that, at the time of change, God make evident he who follows the messenger from he who will turn back on his heels.


Some examples for "We made"

36:8
"Surely We (have) made on their necks iron collars, and it's (up) to the chins, so they (are with) heads raised up."

36:9
"And We (have) made before them a barrier and behind them a barrier. and We covered them, so they (do) not see/understand."

Here "We made" doesn't mean God simply made these people in that state because He wanted them to be so. It's these people (their own decisions/actions/deeds) only made them in that state/condition. Only they are responsible for that. I.e., it's actually they choosed their state/condition, still it says "We made" (since ultimately God is the controller/judge). So here, "We made" refers "they choosed"

36:34
"And We (have) made therein gardens of date-palms and grapes..."
Does "We made" here means, God simply commanded the earth/land to produce a Garden?
No, it's actually human decisions/actions/ their efforts made the garden, but it says "We made".

Further more, If God willed, He would have given the messenger the knowledge of 2nd qiblah in the beginning itself i.e., at the time the messenger choosed/started to follow 1st qiblah. But God didn't give that knowledge.
In other words, "God made" the 1st qiblah for them until a certain time.

1st qiblah = qiblah which they followed prior to God's command
2nd qiblah = qiblah in God's command -2:144,149,150 (the sacred/Restricted temple)

Everything ultimately is from God only, everything happens because God wanted it to happen. And God is just.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Wakas

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Re: what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2020, 04:19:04 AM »
peace Mohammed,

Even if we accept that "we made" may mean similar to what you are proposing BUT that is not the only words used, and I mentioned some, e.g. "God guided", "he who follows the messenger", "so We make evident..."God was not to let your iman/faith go to waste..."

However, it does not change the main point of the article and that is determining what was the great/big (thing) in 2:143. All evidence points to: being on the 1st qiblah.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

ayman

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Re: what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2020, 03:10:32 PM »
Peace brother Wakas,

Could you please clarify a few points for me? It has been a while since we discussed this issue.

1. What is your interpretation of the 1st focal point/target?
2. How was making/allowing this 1st focal point/target a test? How is this test applicable today?
3. I think you are still interpreting the 2nd focal as "the inviolable time of submission" and I think that this is further interpreted by you as the inviolable full-moons where hunting is restricted. Could you clarify how this reconciles with the change of the focal point. Is the 2nd focal point only during this time or is it permanent?   
4. How do the people of the book know that "the inviolable time of submission" is the truth from their lord? How do they know it as they know their own children?

Peace,

Ayman


Enquiry

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Re: what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2020, 01:44:01 AM »
Salam Wakas,

Although many people aren't sure about the 1st Qibla, however there are some indicators on where it could have been. Dan Gibson's video on this issue is interesting. Please see this video (from 6.30 min onwards):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shlQIAnMEdA&list=PLCy1hElGB7JFO_btWjf1QeEyoD1mlb1hG&index=2

Peace

P.S

Sorry I didnt consider your question:

These verses discuss a change in "qiblah". My question is simple:
what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?

No evidence on my part except conjecture: If Mohammed believed in other prophets and messengers, then he must have seen no reason (at first) to not face the 1st Qibla. Overtime however he must have see the diffulty in compromising with other religions and etc.and must have understood it was time to change their entrie course (as not to be confused with other religions) and see who was faithful (and not "inbetween") him and other religions (Jews, Christians, etc). This final turning might have meant cutting ties with all they knew from their previous religions and or families.

God knows best.

Peace

Wakas

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Re: what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2020, 02:37:04 PM »
peace Enquiry,

By asking "what was the test...." it is referring to the poll options:

being on the 1st qiblah
being on the 2nd qiblah
changing from 1st to 2nd qiblah
unsure
other

The poll doesn't require anyone to explain what they think what 1st qiblah was, but that may prove helpful in further discussion. Perhaps I could have been clearer.
In any case you seem to imply the difficulty was the change of the qiblah. This fails according to the issues highlighted in the article. e.g. you have to claim the messenger was pleased for him/community to undergo a testing change, and "cutting ties with all they knew from their previous religions and or families" will lead to less argument, bring you all together etc.


peace Ayman,
Answering those Qs will not affect your answer to the poll question, which is... ?
In any case, most of those Qs are answered in this thread and the linked article:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
When I have some more time I will give summarised answers.

 
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org