Author Topic: 6 Phases of Qur'an Alone Muslims  (Read 756 times)

Neptin

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Re: 6 Phases of Qur'an Alone Muslims
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2020, 04:58:33 AM »
:rotfl: I feel no depression or fear at all.

Well, I did. And most people do. If you've invested your life in an endeavor, several times with opportunity cost, then it kind of depresses you to realize you've been wrong all along. This was my case with Islam - preQur'anist and Qur'anist.

What's more? Your relationships. The reaction of your family and friends. You didn't address any of this.

People have parents, siblings, spouses and more. There is a reason why families mostly share the same religion. Because religion is a bonding and trusting mechanism.

When I lived with my parents, we not only did salat in congregation(we lived far from a mosque) but we did congregational readings on traditional Islamic doctrines.

Imagine me going to one of these family meetings last Ramadan, where the topic of reading is penalties for missing a fast. And there I observe, "perhaps the penalty of fasting 60 days for missing a single day of fast is too extreme." What would my family do?

They'll lose it. They'll flip off. Then, imagine me stating I'm not even sure of fasting in Ramadan or upholding any doctrine in Qur'an because I'm skeptical of the divinity or preservation of the Qur'an.

So, I wonder if you have self identified sunnites in your families(I know you don't label people anymore), are they in your life, have you been open to them about your views?

Even if you say, "well, I don't care what anyone thinks of my views", these are at least your families, naturally they're the ones who have your best interest at heart, and by deviating this radically from their religion, you're breaking bonds.


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Partly because I stopped labeling and judging people and see them as they are.
I did not withdraw from Islam (or any other religion for that matter) I embrace them all.
I found peace on any location, I can pray in the Catholic Church, meditate in Buddhist temple, shalat in Sunnis or Shiite mosque, meditate in Hindus temple, and I can easily find peace within a hectic business meetings or packed subway.

OK. How about Atheists conventions, shrines of African pagan religions? If inclusivity is your thing, why not extend it to the laws and lores taught in those temples as well?

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Peace and happiness can only be found INSIDE of you and NOT OUTSIDE of you.
Let alone 'social club' or 'social identity' that you identify yourselves with.
Or 'holy book' that you think is 'truly holy'.

You're going to tell victims in poverty ravaged and war torn countries that happiness and peace come from the self? What about the sick and bereaved? No, man.

Happiness and peace is a two way street. Your state of mind is in part a function of the state of your group or community. Which is why even as a kid, you're told to withdraw from bad companies.
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good logic

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Re: 6 Phases of Qur'an Alone Muslims
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2020, 07:45:15 AM »
What is wrong with honesty with your own family,friends and all who know you and are interested or you want them to know your stand ?

Like with the following;
 Standards and stands.
 Beliefs and questions/answers about my concerns in life,if they want to ask.
 Phylosophy and personal relationship with my Creator.
Hobbies/intrests and skillls and sharing them if asked.

As long as one is  not hostile or boasting or preaching /expecting them to say/do....
Of course sometimes it is important to hide certain things if one feel hostility or hatred/oppression/aggression.
However now days we have more security and freedom than it has ever been possible in the past.

Also what is wrong with teaching our children exactly what you know, making it clear to them that they will have to check things and preparing them to "investigate things in life" i.e what they hear,see and learn from everyone including you.
 Just like you teach the chores of life, morality and preparing them to face society and the world.

If people believe in GOD and believe GOD, they will know that lying, cheating,hiding things, pretending,fearing others when we are not in danger is not acceptable or healthy.
Being in a relatioship with GOD requires courage, honesty and deep conviction.
our life here and after here is at stake.
GOD bless.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

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Amra94

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Re: 6 Phases of Qur'an Alone Muslims
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2020, 01:11:55 PM »
 I dont believe the Quran condones wife beating or that there are daily 5 prayers. There are 7  :)

imrankhawaja

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Re: 6 Phases of Qur'an Alone Muslims
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2020, 09:41:06 PM »
Belief has no place/value, whereTRUTH is concerned.

Go into it and find it for yourself instead of having a faith on something which may or may not based on TRUTH.

But human consider the TRUTH what they believes in.

First stage is to present the concept ( need sacrifices of different kinds)

In second stage that concept in specific society take place and firm its roots.

Third stage the concept finally evolved into blind faith and circle goes back to first stage if you have to chnage the already going concept, you need extraordinary effort and sacrifices.

Its always very difficult for a human to adopt change and when human adopt change another change is also more difficult then the first one..

Either its science, religion, tradition or philosphy human evolved in it stage by stage.

From flat earth to round, from many Gods to one or none, from swords to guns/nuclear, from wheel to rocket, from one cell to many different complex life cells.

MORE we learn MORE we realise how unaware we were before.


Neptin

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Re: 6 Phases of Qur'an Alone Muslims
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2020, 04:12:47 AM »
I dont believe the Quran condones wife beating or that there are daily 5 prayers. There are 7  :)

Hahaha
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Rauf Murtuzov

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Re: 6 Phases of Qur'an Alone Muslims
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2020, 10:37:13 AM »
Most people here range from moderate to liberal. It used to be conservatives to moderates, but times have changed. The conservatives largely now consider free-minds forum a lost platform, with the rise of the liberals owing to the surge in popularity of the site post 2010.
What about the whole world?

There are also statistics about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quranism#Notable_organizations

Rauf Murtuzov

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Re: 6 Phases of Qur'an Alone Muslims
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2020, 03:40:52 AM »
Those who don't Believe in Allah and all his messenger are not from the people of the truth.

Quran 4:150-152 is a clear evidence for this.

Anoushirvan

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Re: 6 Phases of Qur'an Alone Muslims
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2020, 01:51:44 AM »
Salam,

Interesting topic. But I think there could be a 7th stage or "bucket".

It's for people like me who, after having gone through phase 3 or even phase 5, realize that neither Sunni/Shia approach of Qur'an nor Qur'an alone approach of Qur'an are really satisfactory to really understand what Qur'an says.

For Sunni/Shia, in order to understand Qur'an, you must go through a whole context made of hadiths, Sira, and so-called "asbab an-nuzul".
Yet, they fail to realize or accept that there are strong indications that this huge additional corpus, even when it is deemed "sahih", was actually composed later and by a different milieu that the one of Qur'an initial preaching.


As for Qur'an alone approaches, those are not satisfactory either.
They are roughly divided into two:
* those who dismiss any historical context to understand Qur'an, saying it is useless to rely on it, since Qur'an is "clear" and "self-explaining".
It is as if Qur'an was blank and unpolluted from any historical context, since God's speech should transcend all times and eras.

This is just a weird idea. If it was so, then why a forum to discuss, why so many topics in it, why so many centuries of tafsirs and so on, why so many discussions and diverging opinions, why... why... etc, etc. ?

* those who acknowledge the same historical context as Sunni/Shia islam, for lack of better, but say that it shouldn't be used for understanding Qur'an.
This is even weirder.


Neptin

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Re: 6 Phases of Qur'an Alone Muslims
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2020, 04:36:44 AM »

As for Qur'an alone approaches, those are not satisfactory either.
They are roughly divided into two:
* those who dismiss any historical context to understand Qur'an, saying it is useless to rely on it, since Qur'an is "clear" and "self-explaining".
It is as if Qur'an was blank and unpolluted from any historical context, since God's speech should transcend all times and eras.

This is just a weird idea. If it was so, then why a forum to discuss, why so many topics in it, why so many centuries of tafsirs and so on, why so many discussions and diverging opinions, why... why... etc, etc. ?

* those who acknowledge the same historical context as Sunni/Shia islam, for lack of better, but say that it shouldn't be used for understanding Qur'an.
This is even weirder.

You will fit in the Neo-sunnite phase or Renaissance Qur'anist phase.

Well written post. The flaw in the Qur'anist approach become evident once the reader places themselves in the shoes of the 7th century Arab Bedouin. I mean sure, there is nothing wrong in rejecting hadith entirely, but to assume your 21st century, modern interpretation of certain verses would be conceivable in the 9th or 10th century is misguided.
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Anoushirvan

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Re: 6 Phases of Qur'an Alone Muslims
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2020, 10:58:11 AM »
You will fit in the Neo-sunnite phase or Renaissance Qur'anist phase.

Well written post. The flaw in the Qur'anist approach become evident once the reader places themselves in the shoes of the 7th century Arab Bedouin. I mean sure, there is nothing wrong in rejecting hadith entirely, but to assume your 21st century, modern interpretation of certain verses would be conceivable in the 9th or 10th century is misguided.

I have followed a somewhat different approach.

Three or four years ago, I realized that way some Qur'anists tried to understand Qur'an by correlating verses each other instead of relying on hadiths, and evidencing dual meaning of some verses, had reminiscence of one of the exegetic Jewish traditions called the Midrash.

Some French members may know Jinn Dukhani's article on Nawaat, like https://nawaat.org/2016/02/06/ibadat-el-chouyoukhs-13-des-revolutions-dans-le-coran/ or https://nawaat.org/2012/12/05/ibadat-el-chouyoukhs-6-anges-jinns-demons-et-satan/

Well, though he surely wasn't aware of it, Dukhani read Qur'an (or some passages of Qur'an) like a Jewish scholar (especially an ancient one) would have read a midrash.

Essentially the midrash works as a machine that produces new stories in order to expound one or several points of the Law or God will, from other stories, by allusion of verses, wordplay and metaphors.

In addition, it has been noticed since the 19th century by scholars that a lot of Qur'an passages bore resemblance to Jewish midrashim.
For instance, the story of Adam in Surah 2 is much closer to the one of the midrash Genesis Rabba than the one of the Torah.

Then I understood that Qur'an actually makes much more sense when interpreted through the midrash approach rather than through Qur'an alone or hadiths.
The midrash gives also the full meaning to the word "mutashabih" (v. 3.7), and in fact, mutashabih simply means midrashic: if you try to take literally a midrash story you are lost and you miss the point, exactly as verse 3.7 explains.

But in order to understand the midrash, you need to deep dive into the ancien Jewish thought and traditions, and Muslims in general, including Qur'an-alone people, seem very reluctant to get in touch with Jewish traditions or to envisage that Qur'an could have anything to do with that, as if Jews and their traditions were theologically condemned.

The trouble with understanding Qur'an in the midrash way is that now it gives Qur'an a meaning that is simply not compatible with the traditional narrative of early Islam emergence.
First, it means that Qur'an preaching addressed to Jewish-like or Jewish-Christian people with Gnostic beliefs, not polytheists. And in effect, it stems from historical facts that Arabia at the beginning of the 7th CE was not polytheist anymore.
And it is not a coincidence that a lot of topics here are related somehow to mind and God consciousness concepts in Qur'an: those were typical Gnostic topics.
Next, Qur'an was the preaching of opponents who opposed to some messianic movement at that time, that founded the Arab "kingdom". It is simply not possible that Qur'an could have been the ruling text of the caliphs during the 7th CE.