Author Topic: Verses 2.143- 145  (Read 1852 times)

Layth

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Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2020, 11:20:34 AM »
Dear Wakas,

Becca is the location of the pilgrimage - no two people can debate that. What you decide Bacca is will determine what you see (is it another name for Mecca, is it a different place altogether, etc.).

Mohammed’s people were located in the same town of Lot. There can never be a dispute that Lot and Abraham were in 2 different places.

Mohammed and his people were “gentiles” (never receiving a Book), which takes them out of the realm of Abraham who received a scripture.

Your argument against Mussala is I assume to discredit that a Qibla was held before Mecca. In any case, it is a weak linguistic argument that cannot be substantiated (which is why I said it’s best to use the context as the word has no firm references).

Finally, does the argument that the Qibla switches back to the station of Abraham get negated by the verse that the system is complete? I would say absolutely not as the verse on the Musalla is already in the Quran which means the system is set (just like the verses which speak of Mohammed’s wives or not entering his house or raising our voices over his - all cease to function with his death).
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Wakas

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Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2020, 01:19:19 PM »
peace Layth,

Thanks for the reply.

I think my articles will help better understand my view and points to consider:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html


My discussion of "musalla" was simply to point out what the theoretical word form can tell us, i.e. whatever meaning we select should fit inside that scope, not outside of it. As it stands I do not consider your rendition viable according to the Arabic. As a side note we can use this tool to indirectly check what the word form is telling us.

I hear your arguments but my view is still the same. Until the issues I raised are satisfactorily answered I do not see how your view holds. Readers are free to make up their own minds.

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

tutti_frutti

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Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2020, 06:00:36 PM »
salam layth

if you do not mind, please share the verse or verses that make you believe that muhammed pbuh lived in the town where lot pbuh lived

i do not believe they lived in same town but rather lot pbuh lived in a town that was very close to where muhammed pbuh lived

i understand that muahmmed pbuh and his people used to pass by it and not necessarily live in it and that The God left the city of lot pbuh, which was in a well establoshed road, as a sign

yes, in verse 45 of surah 14 The God says “And you lived among the dwellings of those who wronged themselves, and it had become clear to you how We dealt with them. And We presented for you examples."

is The God speaking about muhammed pbuh and his people, or about humans in general living where previous wiped out generarions lived? and are we sure that verse is about the city of lot pbuh?

i have no knowledge, i am just trying to understand

peace


Layth

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Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2020, 10:33:00 PM »
Salam tutti_frutti,

Quote
if you do not mind, please share the verse or verses that make you believe that muhammed pbuh lived in the town where lot pbuh lived

i do not believe they lived in same town but rather lot pbuh lived in a town that was very close to where muhammed pbuh lived

i understand that muahmmed pbuh and his people used to pass by it and not necessarily live in it and that The God left the city of lot pbuh, which was in a well establoshed road, as a sign

You have answered the question, the Qur'an tells us that the prophet and his people we are told were able to "pass by the ruins of Lot" every morning and every evening. This is not a description of a town far away, but of a location that is accessed by people going about their daily routine...It is within where they live.

37:133   And Lot was one of the messengers.
37:134   When We saved him and all his family.
37:135   Except an old woman who remained.
37:136   Then, We destroyed the rest.
37:137   And you pass by them in the morning;
37:138   And in the night. Do you not comprehend?

Quote
yes, in verse 45 of surah 14 The God says “And you lived among the dwellings of those who wronged themselves, and it had become clear to you how We dealt with them. And We presented for you examples."

is The God speaking about muhammed pbuh and his people, or about humans in general living where previous wiped out generarions lived? and are we sure that verse is about the city of lot pbuh?

I would say that it is speaking to the people of Mohammed, as 14:37 leads up to the mention of the prophets in the area (the restricted House). Also, most people on Earth have never and will never live in a place where there are destroyed remains of the people with whom God was angry (I would think there could be 3-4 such places that were rehabilitated).

Quote
i have no knowledge, i am just trying to understand

So am I brother...To learn, we have to be brave enough to question and challenge, even if the questions sound wrong.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

tutti_frutti

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Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2020, 09:22:32 AM »
salam layth

thank you for your reply

i thought you meant they lives in the exact same town

indeed i agree with you, i believe that they lived within generally same area and close to each other

thanx :)

peace

Fadiva

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Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2020, 01:33:34 PM »
Peace Fadiva,

Please see below post from hafeez kazi about al-masjid al-haram, You may check the complete thread here:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7710.msg13732#msg13732

Peace Someone,

Thanks for the link, I will read it later inchaa Allah.

Fadiva

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Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2020, 01:51:45 PM »
Salam Fadiva,

The Book was still being revealed at this time in stages, so there is no way for any follower of the Prophet to have the same holistic view that we have today. Even the Prophet himself was at some point trying to second guess what the Quran would tell him (see 75:16). The faith of the early believers needed to be far more intense than the later believers.

I am sure based on the logic and flow of the commands. Otherwise, we would all be stuck with the 'trial qibla' until the Day of Judgement (which makes no sense as it had served its purpose).

Peace Layth, 

Wasn't it about those who had the other Book ( prior to al Quran) ? "Those who were given the Scripture" " Those to whom we gave the Scripture", the translators used the simple past.  So if the translations are correct it is more likely about people who already had a Book from God ( previous to al Quran), isn't it ?

I'm not as sure as you. I need more knowledge and it isn't easy.

Anoushirvan

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Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2020, 12:17:59 PM »
Salam,

Actually the textual context of verse 2.143 and followings begins a bit earlier, at verse 2.139.
Here is a translation based on free-minds'one, except that I modified some small part that I disagree with the original:
* Ummah means community in the lifetime, i.e. generation and in verses 2.141 and 2.143, generation is a better fit
* Ummah wasatan in verse 2.143 does not mean a balanced community in my opinion. Wasat means at the center like an edge, so ummah wasatan means a leading edge generation, i.e. they carry a new message from God, and this explains why they can be witnessed over the people.
* Kasaba means "to do", "to perpetrate", and not "to earn", see verse 4.112
* I kept Qibla instead of "focal point" for the purpose of this explanation.
* I kept al-Masjid al-Haram instead of "restricted Temple", as I don't fairly like this translation.



2:139    Say: "Do you debate with us regarding God? He is our Lord and your Lord, and we have our works and you have your works, and to Him we are believers."
2:140    "Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs were Jewish or Nazarenes?" Say: "Are you more knowledgeable or is God?" Who is more wicked than the one who conceals a testimony with him from God? God is not unaware of what you do.
2:141    That is a generation that has passed; to them is what they have done, and to you is what you have done; and you will not be asked regarding what they did.
2:142    The foolish from among the people will say: "What has turned them away from the Qibla that they were on?" Say: "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."
2:143    And as such, We have made you a leading edge generation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the Qibla that you came on except that We may know who is following the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.
2:144    We see the shifting of your face in the heaven; We will set for you a Qibla that will be pleasing to you: "You shall set your face towards the Masjid al-Haram; and wherever you may be, you shall all set your faces towards it." Those who have been given the Book know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
2:145    And if you come to those who have been given the Book with every sign they will not follow your Qibla, nor will you follow their Qibla, nor will some of them even follow each others Qibla. And if you were to follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you would be one of the wicked.
2:146    Those to whom We have given the Book know it as they know their own children; and a group of them hides the truth while they know.
2:147    The truth is from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt.
2:148    And to each is a direction that he will take, so you shall race towards good deeds. Wherever you may be, God will bring you all together. God is capable of all things.
2:149    And from wherever you go out, you shall set your face towards the Masjid al-Haram; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.
2:150    And from wherever you go out, you shall set your face towards the Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you may be, you shall all set your faces towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not be concerned by them, but be concerned by Me; so that I may complete My blessings upon you and that you may be guided.



So this passage begins with the statement that the generation of Jacob has passed with all it has done, and the generation the messenger speaks to must try to move forward.
What is implied here of course is that the mores and customs that were prevalent at the time and generation of Jacob are not relevant anymore for this current generation of the 7th century.

Then the passage goes on verse 2.142 with the complaint from the foolish people: What has turned them away from the Qibla that they were on?
Let us put aside this sentence for the moment, I'll come back to it, and let us examine the answer to that rhetoric question: "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."

We need to understand how the answer is related to the question, and understand the question as well.

In order to understand the answer, we need to understand what is implied by "east" (mashriq) and "west" (maghrib).

Since the passage addresses to people who want to stick to the customs of Jacob, i.e. Jewish-like people, we must understand how those could have understood the passage.
It means we have to understand the ancient Jewish thought and tradition in order to understand this correctly.

And indeed, East means the place and time where the Sun rises, while West means the place and time where the Sun sets.
In the ancient Jewish thought, the Sun was metaphorically the new messianic era, so that East meant resurrection, coming of the Messiah, and West meant Exile, destruction, idolatry.
Also in the ancient Jewish thought, when the Messiah will come, he will alleviate the Law.

So, "To God is the east and the west" means that time of destruction and time of resurrection belong to God, i.e. the decision to stick with the ancient Law or to move to a newer Law.

So somehow, the change of Qibla is related to a change of Law and customs from the time of Jacob.

In verse 10.87, we find:
10:87    And We inspired to Moses and his brother: "You shall seek out homes for your people in Egypt; and leave your homes to be a Qibla, and uphold the Salat. And give good news to the believers."

Does it mean here that the homes of Moses and Aaron are direction of prayer ?
Nobody coming from Jewish traditions as those to whom the messenger addressed would have understood that.

Verse 2.145 makes it clear that the Qibla is something to follow, it is not itself a place.
It also makes it clear that the Qibla belongs to someone:
* qib'lataka: the Qibla of the messenger
* qib'latahum: the Qibla of the opponents to messenger
* Mā Ba`đuhum Bitābi`in Qiblata Ba`đin: the opponents are so divided that some don't follow the Qibla of others
* following the Qibla of someone else after having received knowledge is following his desires and will make you among the wicked

The word "Qibla" comes from a verb qbl that means to be facing each other, such as to receive or accept something.
This actually fits rather well with the situation where students are facing their teacher.

So Qibla simply means teaching of the Law.

But what about verse 2.144: We will set for you a Qibla that will be pleasing to you: "You shall set your face towards the Masjid al-Haram; and wherever you may be, you shall all set your faces towards it." ?


In verse 2.149 and 2.150, we read: And from wherever you go out, you shall set your face towards the Masjid al-Haram.

If we take the verb walla in the proper sense, then each time you go out of somewhere you must physically turn yourself towards the Masjid al-Haram which is simply ridiculous.

So the verb walla is to be taken in a figurative meaning in this context.
Turning one's face towards al-Masjid al-Haram simply means remembering the Divine Law, and that remembrance, by itself, is already a Qibla.

"from wherever you go out": the verbe kharaja indeed means to go out, but in that context, could be well understood as "to dissent".

"from wherever you go out" or "wherever you may be": this is to be understood as whatever group you dissent from or you are in. Any case, keep remembrance of the Divine Law symbolized by the Masjid al-Haram, so that people have no argument against you.