Author Topic: Why Qur'an Alone Communities Don't Exist  (Read 2042 times)

Neptin

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Re: Why Qur'an Alone Communities Don't Exist
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2020, 07:53:40 AM »
Coincidently, I have been pondering upon this also.

I might mistake the person for someone from the coldest region or orthodox jewish sect. In the latter, nikab is prescribed though.

 ;D You're kidding, right? I mean the "hijabi" kind of headscarf common among traditionalist women.

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But it is known that the scarf is used as repellent. Non-muslims usually do their research online instead of asking someone else.


Yeah, they start the research online, but the deeper they delve, the sooner they begin to gravitate towards Muslim individuals off the internet.

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Yet majority of the hadithists would choose Quranic west any day over regions that claim to abide by Islam. Honestly, it seems Muslims were forced into sectarian orthodoxy.


They choose the west mainly for economic reason. And the west remain an attractive spot because their community continue to grow geometrically. The very brands and definite doctrines which served in propagating sunnism at the cost of Qur'anism in the 7th century, will continue to serve propagate sunnism in the 21st century.

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How do you explain Christianity? Christians don’t display their identity either, but they are more in number.

Christianity had a 400 years head start over Islam. Christians bear a lot of brands too - the crucifix worn around the neck, the churches marked with the crosses, headscarf worn by women until few centuries ago, church bells, the pope.

But Christian brands are not nearly as prominent and celebrated as Muslim brands. And in part, this explains why while traditional Islam grows, Christianity wanes today. The Muslim community is also more united and committed than the Christian community.

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Quran alone Islam at this point will not pick up speed. Here is why:

Sects have more in budget to invest for their religion.

People can’t get away from appeal to authority fallacy. I haven’t come across any mullah who practiced Islam from Quran alone, yet if he says we are incorrect people believe him.I have a feeling that fox news idea was stolen from sunnis.

Our info sites are mostly banned in middle east and going public is life threatening.

It takes energy to personally study and uphold the scripture. People like to be fed by someone else.

Not that any of these is incorrect, but they are not the true culprit. There are rather the fruits that spring of the root of the problem; the lack of unique brands and the phenomenon of widely differing views among Qur'anists.
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amin

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Re: Why Qur'an Alone Communities Don't Exist
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2020, 07:08:02 PM »
no need for these aritificial communities, they simple cant exist or survive, will not be real Quran alone.
better its to act and believe what Quran advocates, the real Islam and being a real muslim, coexisting with your current community whatever it is. There needs so much give and take between people in a community, the language, the culture unites people more than religion.

When we leave everything to God alone as per Quran, we can co-exist with any other sects. rtituals do not hinders a God aloner, as for us God is sacred and we do not claim anything in particular to be more important than others. We do not differentiate between prophets, we believe everyone irrespective of religion has equal opportunity before God to be Good and get guidance.

being a muslim, or mushirk is apart from religion, our ego decides these.

Neptin

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Re: Why Qur'an Alone Communities Don't Exist
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2020, 12:26:26 AM »
In time you will..

And the sunnites hates the shiites (and vice versa) more than the Democrats hate the Republicans.
And oh did you know that the Sunnis hate among themselves too?
There are more than 1000 factions within a group named Sunniism.

When was the last time we heard of a sunnite v shiite altercation? Aside from the Saudi/Iranian proxy conflict - which in underneath is truly a racial conflict masked as a religious conflict - the common sunnite and shiite get along just fine.

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Not correct, people generally accepted and benefited the revelation of micro-organism, electricity, electro magnetic waves, earth is round, DNAs and millions of other knowledges .And they have benefited greatly from it.

How many people? Most people couldn't care less about the validity of these things you've mentioned. And coupled with the fact that it takes so much investment to verify all these scientific elements, most people are content with the declaration of the experts.

But then when you move into more cultural and social elements, such as penalty for crimes in the Qur'an, dress code, sexuality, spirituality; that's when differences and resistances become apparent among the masses.

And so, the notion that knowledge and clarity will just remove the difference and get people to see things in a way, in your way to be fair, is a pipe dream. So to save yourself the frustration, just form your own group with those who agree with you and hopefully attract more folks to you.


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Knowledge is a blessing, belief is a curse..

OK. So, what is "God Alone"? Isn't it a belief? How do you know there no multitude of gods? And how do you know there are is even a God? What is the knowledge in this?

You can't have knowledge without foundational beliefs. Take for example, the Dalton Atomic Theory. Most scientists accept this theory despite never verifying it for themselves. Which exactly is what belief is - a piece of information that you accept without ever testing it's validity.

Also, beliefs are not necessarily blind, and many of them endured through the ages and pass down through generation because they offered the most logical response or solution to challenges people were confronted with.

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Less channels will resulted in less spread..
Look at the current COVID-19 for example..

No. Think of it like blocking the mouth of a stream. You're not stopping flood at all. The water current will divert in another direction and flood it.

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You should be aware of the division within "The kingdom of Saudi Arabia".
It's far much greater and much brutal than the division in the US.
Saudi Arabia's Lost Princes
https://youtu.be/5Dofn0oDWMw

And it will came to the surface very soon..
When the oil revenue cannot longer sustain the money for obedience transaction between the family members and the regular citizens.

This has nothing to do with religion. And this in no way divides the regular citizens among themselves.

Compare this to the US, where conservatives and liberals are demonizing each other, down to regular citizens. You think Saudi is censorious? Go see how leftists operate in the US, from slurring their opponents to deplatforming  and ruining their livelihood over simple difference in opinion on issues even as petty as comic books or video games.

SJW vs Anti-SJW. The outrage mob is real in the western countries. Families, relationships are breaking apart over differences on political opinion. So you take away religion, and the intolerance is no different or even worse than when you have religion.

And what is God alone? Simply put, it is an euphemism for "everything passes, except idolatory and atheism". In practice, it is akin to removing "religion", but it achieves nothing in removing intolerance among people.


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You're referring to the US Civil War?  :rotfl:
Oddly enough the 'more religious' southerners during that time, defended the practice of human slavery to the nail and teeth...
Heck why not? They're 'negro', not among us.. not a human but a sub-human.. born to be a slave..

The civil war was a conflict between two governments, that's all it is. The individual Americans at time, were at worst divided over slavery abolition. Today, individual Americans are divided over race, sexuality, abortion, nationalism, immigration, movies, video games, comic books, gun rights, freedom speech/hate speech etc.

By withdrawing from religion, Americans did curb religious intolerance and fanaticism, but the consequence is that the people became even more invested in social and political activism. And thus religious intolerance and fanaticism morphed into political intolerance and fanaticism.

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I never see thing as "good" and "bad", did you found any of my mentioning about "good" or "bad"?
I state that today the mindset of religion is a big problem.

All religion, throughout time, serve the urgent needs for the politicians in power (King, Caesar, Caliph) to 'dominate' and 'control' other human being to become their loyal supporters and their willingness to die in order to expand their area of domination.

I think I already addressed much of this. If you want to see what becomes of a world that abolish religion, look no further than the US. Forget the recent debacles and look at the state of political and social unrest among common citizens inflamed over the most trivial things. T

That unrest, that chaos is what religion evolved to control. Knowledge and clarity is simply not enough. A lot of things remain unclear despite human advancement in arrays of fields, but aside that people will reject and accept things they find emotionally appealing. And this is why beliefs - ideas said to be authorized by an all knowing/all powerful entity - became the basis of religion.

What's even more? Our ancestors since prehistoric times couldn't afford the individualistic stance that result from the 'anti-religion/God Alone" rhetoric you're pushing. Religion helped ancient tribes to think and act collectively to curb infighting and to protect themselves from falling prey to barbaric tribes.



Now, I've taken so much pain to explain the need for a living breathing religious community outside obscure internet forum, and the primary reasons why Quranists can't afford such a community. But do not be misled, I do not seek or implore Qur'anists to build any such community. May be I did in the past, but today, I simply don't care.
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good logic

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Re: Why Qur'an Alone Communities Don't Exist
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2020, 04:34:50 AM »
Peace Neptin.
I read a lot of reflection and "intelligent" experience in your posts. This is healthy for the soul.
You say, quote:
"And so, the notion that knowledge and clarity will just remove the difference and get people to see things in a way, in your way to be fair, is a pipe dream. So to save yourself the frustration, just form your own group with those who agree with you and hopefully attract more folks to you."

But surely one should also do things for their own benefit regardless of others . Especially in religion,if they claim to follow GOD s instruction/message when they are told clearly that they will meet GOD individually and are accountable as individuals not as groups?
Agreeing or disagreeing with each other should never stop us from working on ourselves for ourselves by doing and following the right thing-according to our own judgement/checking/conclusions...
Our religion should be what we deduced from our own research/pondering/reasoning...whether we are the only one in that religion or multitudes, we should have our own satisfaction/reasons for this religion. Therefore the numbers in a religion are/should be irrelevant.

As for this, quote:
"Now, I've taken so much pain to explain the need for a living breathing religious community outside obscure internet forum, and the primary reasons why Quranists can't afford such a community. But do not be misled, I do not seek or implore Qur'anists to build any such community. May be I did in the past, but today, I simply don't care.

Ther is no need for any community as far as religion is concerned. It makes no sense if each individual is accountable -No other person can bare any burden of any other person, each  person is in a religion only for themselves first and foremost-
However I agree that we need a community for other social reasons, which can be achieved even if folks in the same community are in different religions.
Deep down we should all care.
GOD bless you brother.
Peace.
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Jafar

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Re: Why Qur'an Alone Communities Don't Exist
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2020, 04:48:29 AM »
When was the last time we heard of a sunnite v shiite altercation? Aside from the Saudi/Iranian proxy conflict - which in underneath is truly a racial conflict masked as a religious conflict - the common sunnite and shiite get along just fine.

You're right they are living peacefully for many centuries, I haven't heard of any hatred between them. Or any sunnis murdering shiites or otherwise.

Sectarian Violence In Lebanon
https://youtu.be/Gdd-TfCMLYI


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And so, the notion that knowledge and clarity will just remove the difference and get people to see things in a way, in your way to be fair, is a pipe dream. So to save yourself the frustration, just form your own group with those who agree with you and hopefully attract more folks to you.

It seems that your 'goal' is to remove any differences and make people to think the same thing?
Then definitely my friend creating a religion is the way to go for you.. if that's your goal.

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OK. So, what is "God Alone"? Isn't it a belief?
It just a 'name' it can be anything that you want actually, definitely you can also create a religion named "God Alone".

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How do you know there no multitude of gods?
Because God by itself an infinity, how many infinity could there be possible be exist?

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And how do you know there are is even a God?
Because we 'exist' aren't we?

double quote intended, because in truest reality we actually don't exist.

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You can't have knowledge without foundational beliefs. Take for example, the Dalton Atomic Theory. Most scientists accept this theory despite never verifying it for themselves. Which exactly is what belief is - a piece of information that you accept without ever testing it's validity.

Oh yes they do..
And through continuous verification and questioning, we now know for sure that Dalton Atomic Theory is not correct.

  • The indivisibility of an atom was proved wrong: an atom can be further subdivided into protons, neutrons and electrons. However an atom is the smallest particle that takes part in chemical reactions.
  • According to Dalton, the atoms of same element are similar in all respects. However, atoms of some elements vary in their masses and densities. These atoms of different masses are called isotopes. For example, chlorine has two isotopes with mass numbers 35 and 37.
  • Dalton also claimed that atoms of different elements are different in all respects. This has been proven wrong in certain cases: argon and calcium atoms each have an atomic mass of 40 amu. These atoms are known as isobars.
  • According to Dalton, atoms of different elements combine in simple whole number ratios to form compounds. This is not observed in complex organic compounds like sugar (C12H22O11).
  • The theory fails to explain the existence of allotropes; it does not account for differences in properties of charcoal, graphite, diamond
.


Now imagine when there's a religion of "Daltonism" and defend the belief of Dalton vigorously up to extent that they call themselves 'believer' and those who do not accept Dalton theory as "unbeliever", doomed to torture in hell?

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Compare this to the US, where conservatives and liberals are demonizing each other, down to regular citizens. You think Saudi is censorious? Go see how leftists operate in the US, from slurring their opponents to deplatforming  and ruining their livelihood over simple difference in opinion on issues even as petty as comic books or video games.

Still incomparable to Saudi familiies assasinate and kidnap each others..
Oh and haven't you heard about how Kashoggi's got murdered?

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So you take away religion, and the intolerance is no different or even worse than when you have religion.

The essence of religion is PRIDE.
We are the believer and they are the unbeliever.

Without pride, religion as an identity will not hold and sustain long.

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The civil war was a conflict between two governments, that's all it is. The individual Americans at time, were at worst divided over slavery abolition. Today, individual Americans are divided over race, sexuality, abortion, nationalism, immigration, movies, video games, comic books, gun rights, freedom speech/hate speech etc.
So what?

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By withdrawing from religion, Americans did curb religious intolerance and fanaticism, but the consequence is that the people became even more invested in social and political activism. And thus religious intolerance and fanaticism morphed into political intolerance and fanaticism.

Exactly... stripped the religion thus it's core came forward and morphed into something else, intolerance and fanaticism.
We are 'believer' they are 'unbeliever'.
We are 'most correct' they are 'most wrong'.
We are 'high' they are 'low'.

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Now, I've taken so much pain to explain the need for a living breathing religious community outside obscure internet forum, and the primary reasons why Quranists can't afford such a community.

I think you should aim for the need for a living breathing a community where wisdom, love, respect, tolerance in is abundance.
And pride, fanaticism, hatred, anger and fear is non existence or at least at it's lowest level.

And I'm glad that I'm already living in such community.. although those who label themselves as "Muslim" within the community is very rare.

Neptin

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Re: Why Qur'an Alone Communities Don't Exist
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2020, 06:09:57 AM »
Peace Neptin.
I read a lot of reflection and "intelligent" experience in your posts. This is healthy for the soul.
You say, quote:
"And so, the notion that knowledge and clarity will just remove the difference and get people to see things in a way, in your way to be fair, is a pipe dream. So to save yourself the frustration, just form your own group with those who agree with you and hopefully attract more folks to you."

But surely one should also do things for their own benefit regardless of others . Especially in religion,if they claim to follow GOD s instruction/message when they are told clearly that they will meet GOD individually and are accountable as individuals not as groups?
Agreeing or disagreeing with each other should never stop us from working on ourselves for ourselves by doing and following the right thing-according to our own judgement/checking/conclusions...
Our religion should be what we deduced from our own research/pondering/reasoning...whether we are the only one in that religion or multitudes, we should have our own satisfaction/reasons for this religion. Therefore the numbers in a religion are/should be irrelevant.

As for this, quote:
"Now, I've taken so much pain to explain the need for a living breathing religious community outside obscure internet forum, and the primary reasons why Quranists can't afford such a community. But do not be misled, I do not seek or implore Qur'anists to build any such community. May be I did in the past, but today, I simply don't care.

Ther is no need for any community as far as religion is concerned. It makes no sense if each individual is accountable -No other person can bare any burden of any other person, each  person is in a religion only for themselves first and foremost-
However I agree that we need a community for other social reasons, which can be achieved even if folks in the same community are in different religions.
Deep down we should all care.
GOD bless you brother.
Peace.

Peace goodlogic.

I'm not calling for a community formation. That was never the intention of my OP. What I've addressed are the reasons why Qur'anists can't build a community, whether they intend to build one or not.

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However I agree that we need a community for other social reasons, which can be achieved even if folks in the same community are in different religions.

This seem implausible. Unless you refer to some non-religious and secular community, which will is not the bone of contention.

Thanks, though.




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Neptin

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Re: Why Qur'an Alone Communities Don't Exist
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2020, 06:47:25 AM »

I think you should aim for the need for a living breathing a community where wisdom, love, respect, tolerance in is abundance.

Under the banner of what do you build such community? Every existing community supposedly enjoin wisdom, love etc. The sunnites, the shiites, the catholics, secular political parties.

You can't just gather people to build a community of "wisdom, love, tolerance and respect". You need some common ground often in form of a set of beliefs/doctrines.


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ade_cool

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Re: Why Qur'an Alone Communities Don't Exist
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2020, 07:13:40 AM »
Salam all,

From sahih hadith books, prophet Muhammad is reported to always encourage/command Muslims to be different from Christians and Jews in any aspect! Meaning if Christians are doing things A way, Jews are doing things B way, then Muslims must invent another way different from them.

Examples of such sahih hadiths:

https://sunnah.com/nasai/48/33

It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that:
The Prophet [SAW] said: "The Jews and Christians do not dye their hair, so be different from them."


Since Jews and Christians do not dye their hair, then Muslims should otherwise not different from Christians and Jews

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/11/1

Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) (p.b.u.h) saying, "We (Muslims) are the last (to come) but (will be) the foremost on the Day of Resurrection though the former nations were given the Holy Scriptures before us. And this was their day (Friday) the celebration of which was made compulsory for them but they differed about it. So Allah gave us the guidance for it (Friday) and all the other people are behind us in this respect: the Jews' (holy day is) tomorrow (i.e. Saturday) and the Christians' (is) the day after tomorrow (i.e. Sunday)."


Jews have holy day on Saturday, Christians have holy day on Sunday, Muslims must also have a holy day but it has to be different from Christians and Jews. Let's make Friday as holy day.

https://sunnah.com/abudawud/2/262

Narrated Aws ibn Thabit al-Ansari:

The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: Act differently from the Jews, for they do not pray in their sandals or their shoes.


Even about praying on sandals or shoes, Muslims have to be different from Jews.


https://sunnah.com/abudawud/21/88

Narrated Ubadah ibn as-Samit:

The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used to stand up for a funeral until the corpse was placed in the grave. A learned Jew (once) passed him and said: This is how we do. The Prophet (ﷺ) sat down and said: Sit down and act differently from them.


Attending funeral? Don't act like Jews ...Be different!!!

Now let's see the teaching in Quran ...

[30:30] So set your face to the system of monotheism. It is the inclination that God has nurtured the people on. There is no changing in the  creation of God. Such is the pure system, but most of the people  do not know.
[30:31] Turn to Him, and be aware of Him, and hold the Connection, and do not be of the polytheists.
[30:32] From those who have divided their system and become "religion", each group exult with what they have.


So let's not be divided into "religion" which would make us of polytheists.


Wassalam,
Ade

Jafar

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Re: Why Qur'an Alone Communities Don't Exist
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2020, 11:59:57 AM »
Under the banner of what do you build such community? Every existing community supposedly enjoin wisdom, love etc.

You can't just gather people to build a community of "wisdom, love, tolerance and respect". You need some common ground often in form of a set of beliefs/doctrines.

Choose any banner, the banner and label is not important.  :rotfl:

It's the attitude of the person inside the community that matter.
And within the person, it's the emotion inside the person that matter.

Positive and sweet emotion will resulted in positive and sweet person.
Positive and sweet person will resulted in positive and sweet community.

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The sunnites, the shiites, the catholics, secular political parties.
All of these is actually name of political parties..
Or to put in other terms:
All of these is actually name of religion..

They're all struggling for pride, for power.

Pride has it's own characteristic of separation, to be separated from others so I (the ego) or we (the collective ego) can be the 'best' compared to others, can 'win' over others.

Proud person will try to be the 'most' person, compared to others.
Proud pious person will try to be the most pious person, compared to others.
The actual mechanism varies, a sunni / shiite might recite the entire Al-Baqarah on his praying to  have the comfort that he is more pious compared to others as he can memorize and recite the longest surah which others cannot. A catholic evangelist might try to convert the pagans to 'salvation',  thinking that the pagans are 'less pious' compared to him thus need to be 'saved'. A candidate will try to give more donation to communities more than his rival, thus having the comfort of better at community contribution compared to his rival. A Quranist will try to prove that the Quran is the only book written by god and superior compared to other books which are claimed as merely man made... and millions other example of pride manifestation.

If you want to find a good attitude to start, start with the opposite attitude of pride, humility.
And the best person to start is no other than your own self.



Sarah

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Re: Why Qur'an Alone Communities Don't Exist
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2020, 06:33:12 AM »
The reason there aren't any Qur'an alone communities in real life is because there's hardly any of us and we're scattered across the globe.

When I was sunni and I saw a woman across the street wearing a headscarf, I wouldn't just automatically talk to her or become a friend to her because we have one thing in common i.e. the religious symbol of the hijab.

I'm sure if there were more of us to the extent that even a colleague is a Qur'an alone believer and we just happened to talk about it, there'd obviously over time very likely be a Qur'an alone community in the real world.
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