Author Topic: New article: salat timings as per The Quran  (Read 20876 times)

Wakas

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #90 on: February 19, 2021, 01:20:36 PM »
I'm not sure why but it seems you avoid addressing any of the points I raise in the article. Let's start with the very first one:

Quote
In 2:238 The Quran makes no reference to the "salawaat" being "in a day"


This point alone is enough to critically damage your initial claim of:
"The problem comes from the verse [2:238] where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ?"
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Iyyaka

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #91 on: February 19, 2021, 03:04:50 PM »
I'm not sure why but it seems you avoid addressing any of the points I raise in the article. Let's start with the very first one:


This point alone is enough to critically damage your initial claim of:
"The problem comes from the verse [2:238] where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ?"
I'm not sure why but it seems you avoid addressing any of the remarks i made to you (Did you even click on the link i gave you ? i am not sure..).

You seems so convinced that you have analyzed all the options and come to the only valid conclusion that finally there is no place for a real debate.

Why the Quran needed to add the expression "in a day" ? I don't understand this argument and how it can "damage my initial claim".
The Quran tells you to observe carefully (imperative form) the prayers you have to perform ? how many different and obligatory ones are there ? 2 according to you but the word refers to 3 minimum. So, the question is quite simple: where is (at least) the third prayer in your reflection?

In addition, in the word "l-ṣalawāti" you find the lam of determination.
+
Verb (form III) - to guard
(2:238:1) ḥāfiẓū   Guard strictly   حَافِظُوا عَلَى الصَّلَوَاتِ وَالصَّلَاةِ الْوُسْطَىٰ
(6:92:22) yuḥāfiẓūna   (are) guarding   وَهُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ
(23:9:5) yuḥāfiẓūna   they guard   وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَوَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ
(70:34:5) yuḥāfiẓūna   keep a guard وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ
=> Note the difference in sentence structure and grammatical form between verse [2:238] and the other 3. In these three verses it is about evoking all the prayers of all believers, whereas in verse 238 it is about believers observing THE prescribed prayers.

good logic

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #92 on: February 20, 2021, 01:53:24 AM »
Here is the problem that  I can see with this verse:

حٰفِظوا عَلَى الصَّلَوٰتِ وَالصَّلوٰةِ الوُسطىٰ وَقوموا لِلَّهِ قٰنِتينَ

You shall consistently  guard/look after/observe... THE SALAWAT,  and/ also/especially  THE SALAT ALWASTA and devote yourselves totally to God.

What are "THE SALAWAT"?  Why mention another" THE SALAT ALWUATA" with them?  What is the meaning of "KUMU  kANITEEN"?

The "AL" in Arabic denotes something known/specific. The prophet and believers knew exactly what to Guard/ look after...consistently,Or didn t they?

Should "in a day" be a question? Why?

 One would easily argue there is no "in a day" or" in a week" or" in a year" or "in your lifetime" in the verse. So what can be the most logical? The most likely? Or has the verse got nothing to do with prayers?

The next verse will shed light on this:
فَإِن خِفتُم فَرِجالًا أَو رُكبانًا فَإِذا أَمِنتُم فَاذكُرُوا اللَّهَ كَما عَلَّمَكُم ما لَم تَكونوا تَعلَمونَ
 If you fear/Under unusual circumstances, you may ( Guard/Hafidhu them - The Salawat and The Salat Al Wusta )walking or riding. Once you are safe/back to normal circumstances-, you shall commemorate God as He taught you what you never knew.
 Why "Udhkuru" commemorate-?

For me both verses are most likely talking about the "connection/prayers£ subscribed .
The terms "KUMU KANETEEN" AND "UDHKURU ALLAH" used are both are also used for the Salat that Qoran prescribed to Moses before " Wa Aquimi The Salat Li Dhikri"

In my opinion Qoran is talking about guarding consistently the "daily prayers" even when busy with work and travel "daily" i.e under unusual circumstances.

NOTE:  With 2 prayers per day one can never have 1 Salat wusta as the numbers are always even  whether per day, per week or per year.?
GOD bless .
Peace.
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Iyyaka

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #93 on: February 20, 2021, 12:09:38 PM »

The next verse will shed light on this:
فَإِن خِفتُم فَرِجالًا أَو رُكبانًا فَإِذا أَمِنتُم فَاذكُرُوا اللَّهَ كَما عَلَّمَكُم ما لَم تَكونوا تَعلَمونَ
 If you fear/Under unusual circumstances, you may ( Guard/Hafidhu them - The Salawat and The Salat Al Wusta )walking or riding. Once you are safe/back to normal circumstances-, you shall commemorate God as He taught you what you never knew.
 Why "Udhkuru" commemorate-?
For me both verses are most likely talking about the "connection/prayers£ subscribed .
The terms "KUMU KANETEEN" AND "UDHKURU ALLAH" used are both are also used for the Salat that Qoran prescribed to Moses before " Wa Aquimi The Salat Li Dhikri"
In my opinion Qoran is talking about guarding consistently the "daily prayers" even when busy with work and travel "daily" i.e under unusual circumstances.
Peace Good logic,

Thanks for your contribution - yes the context in [2:239] is obvious and this verse is naturally linked to the previous verse.

I add an intra-textual proof on the subject of verse 239: the expression "ʿallamakum mā takūnū taʿlamūna" is found almost identically in another verse, verse [2:151] which unambiguously deals with the common prayer performed by the prophet (pbsl).

Fadiva

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #94 on: March 16, 2021, 03:39:29 AM »
Salam,

True. While debating one should point all the passages he doesn't agree and give proof or at least show why his understanding is different.

Just a few points and questions:

I noticed :
 Salati al fajri, salati al 3ichai and wal (wa +al) salati al wusta which seems different from the others in its formulation. Fajri, 3achai but wusta. Seems like fajri and 3chai translate a period of time but not wusta (adjective).   

2.238 : where is the word "especially"? Have you read all the verses with the word wa and derive from it " And especially " ?
Why should one be more likely forget or do not a salat during the day than salat al fajri for instance?
You've mentioned because of business. But in some countries, where it's hot, one can notice that a lot of people don't open their shops or don't work until 3 or 4 p.m.

On this verse we can read salawati which seems to be a plural meaning a minimum of three and we can read
wal salati al wusta  so if we don't add a word one can understand here a minimum of 4 salats unless he proves that it it is "especially". One other can understand all the salats and the how salat should be (wusta as adjective).

And we can read: 24.58

Here one translation :
Arberry: O believers, let those your right hands own and those of you who have not reached puberty ask leave of you three times -- before the prayer of dawn, and when you put off your garments at the noon, and after the evening prayer -- three times of nakedness for you. There is no fault in you or them, apart from these, that you go about one to the other. So God makes clear to you the signs; and God is All-knowing, All-wise.

By just reading not deducing, salat of dawn, evening salat but "when you put off your garments at the noon".

Good logic said:
"Should "in a day" be a question? Why?

 One would easily argue there is no "in a day" or" in a week" or" in a year" or "in your lifetime" in the verse. So what can be the most logical? The most likely? Or has the verse got nothing to do with prayers?"

Why should be "in a day" In verse 2.238 the most likely? Can you explain it?

Why should one deduce from " When you put off your garments at noon", that it is a salat while it is mentioned for dawn and dusk?

I am just pointing some things.
I am trying to be as honest as possible and not saying you're right or I'm right.
But read, reread, notice, not deduce to fast we have to read all the verses.
Question yourself. We are humans, we can mistakes.

So maybe it's better the restart and take point by point the claimimgs and give proofs he you have.