Author Topic: New article: salat timings as per The Quran  (Read 4113 times)

jkhan

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2020, 07:32:22 PM »
The regular/timed salat from The Quran: how many and when?
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html

peace jkhan,
You claim the one option I gave for "the day of gathering" / "a day of gathering" referring to "al hajj" cannot be since that is over a few days. Well your objection is refuted by 9:3 which uses ""yawma al-haji al-akbari".
I cannot be certain what "yawmi al-juamati" refers to in 62:9 (and I have never seen anyone make a solid case for one understanding over others, hence why I provided several options) but my point was no matter which you choose it works perfectly well with the article posted in this thread.
Why are you asking me if "amusement/distraction/sport" is allowed in "al hajj" or not, haven't you got a Quran? Show me the verse which says this is not allowed in "al hajj" then we can talk more. I hate to state the obvious but I should point out 62:9 referring to "al hajj" was simply one option I provided.

Re: 2:238
If a person does not understand something, I recommend re-reading, even if it means re-reading several times. Let me simplify further: 2:239 refers to the previous verse which mentions upholding the most excellent/balanced salat, and that is obviously the one connected to God / God's system, i.e. the timed-salat. So 2:239 is referring to whenever one upholds the timed-salat, it does not matter which one. It's like 5:6 when it says wash before you observe the timed-salat, it doesn't say which specific salat, it is referring to any timed-salat.

peace GL,
Thanks for clarifying. You could have avoided having to clarify by simply answering what I asked you previously, so let me ask you again: Quran says do salat X ila/to Y. Do you do one salat from X (which you take as noon) to Y (which you take as "ghasaq al layl"), which is currently approx. 7hrs in the UK where you reside? Yes/No.

Previously you said "maghrib al shams" means sunset in Arabic, now you say "In fact sunset in Qoran is described by "Ghurubi Al Shams". Forgive me if I do not take your word for it, provide the proof showing it can only mean what you claim it means.

You now say "bring from Qoran where "Duluk Al Shams" means sunset." when I could easily say YOU bring me proof from Quran where it means decline from its zenith? You as well as I know it only occurs once. My argument is painfully simple: I have interpreted the verses in such a way that provides the utmost logic, coherence and practicality and have challenged anyone to find a flaw/error. Since we have no idea what your timing system is we cannot compare and see what results.

You then say "If 17:78 is saying at the decline, the most logical way is the start of the decline. Hence my timing makes more sense than yours.". You seem to be fixated on "duluk" meaning decline, so tell us, do Classical Arabic dictionaries only mention "decline" as its meaning? Yes/No.

From PRL: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Dal-Lam-Kaf = rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun). The phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" / setting of the sun / the sun became high, by Lane.


In any case, it doesn't really matter what meaning one picks for "duluk" from the options, the point of the article is really simple, what matters is can the timings be made to work which respects the Arabic, logic, practicality and when cross-referenced with other verses (i.e. coherence). Since you seem extremely reluctant to detail what your timings system is we cannot compare/test it and see what happens.

Peace...
I do apologize for asking as a question... Thought you would consider in more apt way since your and our aim is to find out the errors.. But you discarded saying "Don't you have a quran".. Fine... Let's hope that's your nature.. .. But naturally amusement do take place in a fair / market taking into consideration the time the Quran  was revealed...  I have never read in Quran amusement was part of haj and for what purpose the amusement / sport needed where basically debate, dead people reminded and remembrance of God is taking place... It's not meant for fun... Naturally looking at the content of Haj amusement cannot be part of Haj (God allowed or not is not the key)...  But does it befit?  But here amusement is stated and it does befit within a weakly etc fair or market.. Why can't we perceive what suits to occasion... That's my point..

The verse 62:9-12 not sound like Haj at all... Look at the cream and the essence in the verse...
* people at business and asked to leave them (never stated to leave any Haj rituals and rush for Salat)
* And again once the salat is over. it never sounds like go and do what's relevant to haj, but go do business again. that's so unlikely the instructions if Haj is also meant by this verse...
* And the people who came to Haj and called for Salat can most probably be submitters / believers in order to come and perform Salat.. Then why they should leave Salat and rush for amusement almost all of them... Is amusement is so important during haj being believers...  Leaving the messenger standing.... 
God restricted certain things during Haj which is more or less without knowledge people may do,  and God doesn't need to restrict mostly what people hardly practice during haj.. That's amusement..
The greater day of Haj is one of the days of haj.. Greater day cannot be the only day of haj.. Haj is more than one day act..
But 62:9-11 specify ONLY ONE DAY.. 

2:238 ..still you are not ready to ponder what others say and remain eccentric on your view.. Fine.. But look for possibilities..
Here salawat and together with Salat wusta mentioned.. That's definitely unnecessary to mention wusta... If wusta is not a salat that needs emphasisng...
For example God used. 23:09 same word salawat and they are believers who guard salawat and successful... Notably,  there is no wusta... So if can be stated without wusta one place and Guard salawat why mention wusta in 2:238?
 
Coz it has a difference.. "Guard the prayers and the middle salat"... That's the most vulnerable Salat which can be missed coz of business and hustle and bustle  of busy day time ..needs extra emphasisng to guard it..

But in 23:9 it is not required.. Coz God is talking about those who guarded believers who guarded Fajr, Wusta, Isha...

Subsequently, I deduce there is no reason to put an additional word in 2:238 after saying Guard Salawat and salat wusta.. Guard salwar is more than enough as of 23:9 ...
Difference is..
23:9 is the one who is successful believers..
2:238 is instructions to become successful...

jkhan

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2020, 07:59:08 PM »
In 24:58 you say only two salat is mentiones so tw is appropriate...
Do you think it is really necessary to say middle salat in that verse..
Perfectly alright Salat Fajr and Isha coz they are the perfect timong of privacy... Coz timing for Salat isha and Fajr is so limited.. Do you agree?  So mentioning after isha and before Fajr makes much sense...
But how would one say after or before middle prayer(wusta) since it has much longer period...

Questions for you.. In case there is a Salat at midday from the time of sun decline from Meridian till darkness, then how would the verse 24:58 should be placed?
Can the verse say after Wusta Salat or can it say before wusta Salat?

If God said after wusta Salat... Then wusta Salat should be exactly when the sun declines from its peak.. That's not the time by verse 17:78...that's manifestly long period...  Let them sleep and pray OR pray and sleep.. Enough time.. But when they remove cloth at noon it is a privacy... There is no way to include the salat as landmark as of Fajr and isha..  Try to grasp...

Further what GL and tmtt is indicating of Guribath is perfect.. That I also indicated to its maximum in one of the similar topic,  but you never considered... But you prefer to take 17:78 as sunset only and leaving more convenient and proper and comparable meaning aside..

That's only your option taking as sun set,  and it has nothing to convince other than your mere option.. Can you convince it is sunset... No way...

Wakas

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2020, 03:29:03 AM »
peace GL,
Previously you said "maghrib al shams" means sunset in Arabic, then you said "In fact sunset in Qoran is described by "Ghurubi Al Shams", then went on to cite verses 18:86, 20:130, 18:17 which do not contain that phrase. I will have to assume therefore you mean when "ghurub" is used referring to "shams" it means sunset.
I already showed the following:
Quote
You have refuted yourself. In 18:86 the imperfect "taghrubu" is used, meaning an action incomplete or in the process of being done, and that is why the verse says "he found it setting IN a muddy spring" clearly showing it had not set yet, thus it cannot mean "sunset".

You then cited 18:17 so let's take a closer look:

"And you may have seen the sun when it rose inclining away from their cave to the right AND when it GhRBat passing away (from) them to the left..."

1) underlined words are perfect verbs
2) the verse states it would have possible to see what occurred to the sun
3) GhRBat is in the perfect tense BUT "passing away" (taqridu) is in the imperfect (i.e. an action incomplete or in the process of being done). Similarly "inclining away" is imperfect.

According to you GhRBat means sunset so how is it possible to see it passing away from them to the left after it is below the horizon?

Tell us why it cannot mean these:
From: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Ghayn-Ra-Ba = went/passed away, depart/retire/remove/disappear, become remote/distant/absent/hidden/black, withdraw, western, foreign/strange, exceed, abundance, sharpness, (maghrib = sunset), black, raven-black, setting place of the sun, the west.



When I said:
Quote
Next, you claim for 17:78 when Quran says do X  li A ila/to B, it means do X at/from A. Evidence from Quran please.
I thought I was being clear. If you have no other examples from Quran which proves how you interpret it is possible then just say so. It is not an easy thing to research so it is understandable if you are not aware of corroborating examples.

The reason I asked this:
Quote
Of course your timing for this salat has no time-range and you will have to clarify if you only do one salat during this time-range of zenith to dark night.
Because you previously said this. Readers will also note the baseless claim made by GL regarding preposition "Li".
Since I/we have no idea what his timings system is we cannot compare/test it.


You claim the salat time I am referring to in the evening would be "very long" and "not true or possible" when according to this website the timeframe would be approx 34-75mins for London UK. It will depend of course on which twilight one is referring to but going by 2:187 it seems whiteness in the sky is a good indicator of twilight so that would be till end of civil twilight in this case giving 34mins. Doesn't seem "very long" to me.


peace TMTT,
I'm not sure what point you are making. Please clarify.


peace jkhan,
I never saw any highlighting of a flaw/error in my article in your replies. Quran says no sex/wrongdoing/quarreling for those undertaking al hajj [2:187]. If you want to claim there is also no amusement/sport/distraction then go ahead. Bear in mind not everyone in the locality will be undertaking al hajj.
Also I will give you a good example, when I have visited some bazaars, some sellers, e.g. of ice cream, will put on a show as an amusement/advertisement in order to attract watching people, so they are hopefully enticed to also buy ice cream. Under your made-up claims this may not be allowed. You need to consider the practicality of what you're suggesting.

And in case you are still confused, here are the type of errors/flaws/problems I am looking for:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610966.msg428541#msg428541
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

jemby97

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2020, 07:06:43 AM »
Salam Everyone,

While it is good that this issue, one that has been discussed many many times before, without any agreement or conclusion, is being brought up again so that it can be finalized and concluded and agreed by all.

But, I feel that before discussing its timing, don't you think that it is better to agree to get the definition, meaning and objectives of Solat first.

Once this is agreed then the discussion of its timing will have meaning.

We can start on with Bro Wakas article on Salat.

Just my two cent contribution Guys.

Salam.


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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2020, 03:33:15 AM »
Peace Wakas.
Let us first cklear "Maghrib, Gharabat, Ghurub Al Shams... and its derivatives.

Not one of them relates to "DULUK" do you agree ?. and they describe when the sun sets,disappear...
What is sunset according to you? Does one see sunset when the sun has just set/disappeared, the clear glow in the sky?
Then you have no grounds with this, quote:

According to you GhRBat means sunset so how is it possible to see it passing away from them to the left after it is below the horizon?

 So here is my request to you :
Provide evidence from Qoran that Duluk Al Shams is sunset?
All you have done is choose a meaning from lexicon that fits your view.
Remember you  are clearly claiming this ,not me.
If you do not,, your work cannot be without error/s 100%.

Second:  You claim sunset to Ghasaki Al Leyl is a time frame,How do you deduce it is a time frame and not the lenght of the single salat?
You say Li/At or from To Ghasaki Al Leyl is not the lenght of the salat, yet if the instruction is from...to it can only mean continuous?

Otherwise the instruction would be Bayna Duluk ...Ila Ghasaki Al Leyl. i.e between Duluk and Ghasaki...This is a time frame not what you claim.
I am going to summarize here for you and the reader to show your errors in translating 17:78:

1- No evidence from Qoran that Duluk Al Shams is sunset, even though Qoran clearly uses another word for sun setting, To set, will set, has set...

2- No evidence that "at-to" or "from -to" means time frame and not one continuous salat of the whole lenght of time.

I explained my view , However ,regardless of any other view,I am highlighting the errors in your translation which is what you are asking the readers to do.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Wakas

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2020, 06:48:53 AM »
peace GL,
I am using the dictionary definition of "sunset" which refers to when the sun disc is fully below the horizon.

Thanks for making things clearer for readers:

GL first said "maghrib al shams" means "sunset".
I provided evidence that "maghrib" actually means setting time/place.
GL then said "ghurub al shams" describes "sunset" and cited no verse where this phrase occurs (so we can only assume he means when "ghurub" refers to "shams" it means "sunset"), so he cited 18:86, 20:130.
I refuted his claim regarding 18:86.
GL had no direct response and then cited 18:17.
I analysed 18:17 and asked him a simple question how his view can work with this verse.
GL completely avoids answering and then subtly changes his view to "Qoran clearly uses another word for sun setting, To set, will set, has set..."
Note how he doesn't say "sunset"! i.e. his claim now is this word describes the process of setting not only "sunset"

Readers will also note GL completely avoids answering my question on how he has seemingly changed his timings and  his baseless claim about preposition "li". I wonder why that is.


I do not understand your point about timeframe and length of salat. I clearly and unequivocally state what the timeframe/length is for each salat. In fact, I have no idea how anyone can be confused after reading what I wrote in the article, quote: "To clarify: this timed-salat begins at evening twilight and ends with dark night (i.e. end of evening twilight)."
Or to put it in your language, yes it's continuous. Although in the real world it would be flexible, e.g. if someone wants to do a little more/less etc it's not a problem as per Quran, which I discuss in the articles. Readers must pay attention to the ONLY plural address verse that uses salat and a timing component and that is 24:58, which says morning/dawn and evening/dusk, i.e. it gives no time-range/length. The time-ranges in Quran are exemplars. I think I will make this point clearer in my article.




All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

good logic

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2020, 08:22:37 AM »
Peace Wakas.
You have no evidence from Qoran that duluk Al Shams is sunset, or after sunset,Hence it is on you to bring the evidence from Qoran.
Or do you want us to take your view for it as accurate?

What is sunset in Arabic, Let us ask everyone (Who knows Arabic) this question to see who is right? You are not accepting Qoran.
The Salat at sunset ( i.e just after sunset) like you claim is called Maghrib salat by all Muslims. Nowhere do I see or hear Duluk salat.
You are now dodging the question of evidence .

 You say, quote:
Readers will also note GL completely avoids answering my question on how he has seemingly changed his timings and  his baseless claim about preposition "li". I wonder why that is.

I have given you the following explanation for time frame, in fact I will give you my translation of 17:78:
"Aquimi the  salat at the point(start) of decline of the sun(Atnoon), the decline that goes towards ghasaki al leyland...."
This salat is the noon salat and itstime frame is the noon time. i.e lunchtime,siesta time...-Known worlwide .

Your explanation of time frame cannot mean time frame it can only mean the whole time from sunset to ghasaki al leyl according to the Arabic you have chosen as at-to or from to.. If you say it is up to the individual how long they take, bring evidence from Qoran and identify clearly what is the salat  in details to see why it should take that long. Or are you saying GOD is not clear?

Now concentrate on bringing evidence from Qoran for:
1- duluk Al Shams is sunset.
2- Time frame clarification .
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Wakas

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2020, 09:56:24 AM »
peace GL,
It's funny how you ask me for Quranic evidence for "duluk al-shams" meaning "sunset" then refer to non-Quranic evidence for "ghurub" / "maghrib" meaning "sunset". Seems to me you have given up on your alleged Quranic evidence.

You say it means zenith but since it occurs only once you (like me) cannot prove it means what we take it to mean directly, so stop pretending your view is somehow superior to mine. But we can provide evidence indirectly:

4:82 Do they not reflect on the Qur'an? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many a discrepancy/contradiction.

If we select a meaning that results in no errors/flaws/contradictions etc then that chosen meaning is a contender. No-one in this thread so far has found any flaw/error/contradiction in what I've written.

There is no need for me to clarify timeframe. I have already answered this question. It is crystal clear in my article. It seems only you are confused about timeframe.

And by the way you never answered what I asked, but it's ok, I understand why you'd be reluctant to do so.

#####

In case if anyone actually reads my article on SaBiH I actually discuss why "duluk al shams" is used, hence why in this article I state "setting of the sun / sunset" as it doesn't affect my position which is chosen.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2020, 10:47:58 AM »
Peace Wakas.
  I am just doing what you asked people to do in this thread. I am showing you that there are issues in the work you claim has no errors.
 Here are the clear errors.
1- No evidence from Qoran that duluk Al Shams is sunset.
The dictionary has many meanings for duluk,. All you have to do is show that duluk Al Shams in Qoran has that meaning, find another verse or expression from Qoran to confirm for us you are right.
Otherwise, it is your view  Hence you have no evidence.

2- Your time frame and explanation of this salat  does not make sense. Clarify  or explain this salat  in details that takes more than two hours to complete. What does Qoran mean when it instructs the salat from sunset to ghasaki Al Leyl?
Remember, the Arabic has not said between sunset and ghasaki Al Leyl as this is what one expects for time frame.

If you are claiming your work is still 100%, then you are ignoring some very important and logical problems in your work. You have not been convincing in your answers and you have not provided any verses from Qoran to confirm your understanding.

If you say it is your view and accept that there may be room for improvement that is a better way than the position you are taking. about your work has no errors?
Can you see the issue brother?
Otherwise it is up to you to claim whatever you want.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2020, 11:30:49 AM »
Peace Wakas .
One more point
You seem to ignore verses that talk about the sun setting, before sunset. i.e clearly identifying the process of the sun going under the horizon.
All of them here:
hapter 50 Qaf سورة ق - Qaf: Verse 39
فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ الْغُرُوبِ

Chapter 6 The cattle سورة الأنعام - Al-Anaam: Verse 78
فَلَمَّا رَأَى الشَّمْسَ بَازِغَةً قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي هَٰذَا أَكْبَرُ ۖ فَلَمَّا أَفَلَتْ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِمَّا تُشْرِكُونَ

Chapter 18 The cave سورة الكهف - Al-Kahf: Verse 86
حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ وَوَجَدَ عِنْدَهَا قَوْمًا ۗ قُلْنَا يَا ذَا الْقَرْنَيْنِ إِمَّا أَنْ تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمَّا أَنْ تَتَّخِذَ فِيهِمْ حُسْنًا

Chapter 20 Taha سورة طه - Taha: Verse 130
فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ غُرُوبِهَا ۖ وَمِنْ آنَاءِ اللَّيْلِ فَسَبِّحْ وَأَطْرَافَ النَّهَارِ لَعَلَّكَ تَرْضَىٰ

Chapter 18 The cave سورة الكهف - Al-Kahf: Verse 17
وَتَرَى الشَّمْسَ إِذَا طَلَعَتْ تَزَاوَرُ عَنْ كَهْفِهِمْ ذَاتَ الْيَمِينِ وَإِذَا غَرَبَتْ تَقْرِضُهُمْ ذَاتَ الشِّمَالِ وَهُمْ فِي فَجْوَةٍ مِنْهُ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ مِنْ آيَاتِ اللَّهِ ۗ مَنْ يَهْدِ اللَّهُ فَهُوَ الْمُهْتَدِ ۖ وَمَنْ يُضْلِلْ فَلَنْ تَجِدَ لَهُ وَلِيًّا مُرْشِدًا

None of them mentioned duluk?

Even after it disappears Qoran used a different word than duluk.
Chapter 6 The cattle سورة الأنعام - Al-Anaam: Verse 78
فَلَمَّا رَأَى الشَّمْسَ بَازِغَةً قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي هَٰذَا أَكْبَرُ ۖ فَلَمَّا أَفَلَتْ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِمَّا تُشْرِكُونَ

You are not accepting but you cannot confirm your take. Is mine not a better position than yours regarding sunset.?
Just to clarify.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

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