Author Topic: Do you think sincere sunni muslims can go to paradise  (Read 3400 times)

Jafar

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Re: Do you think sincere sunni muslims can go to paradise
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2020, 09:21:44 PM »
Peace...
What a silly and nonsensical and baseless statement that is which is super biased .... 
Use your sense before submitting in such a forum where most are intelligent...  That's so mean.....

Thank you, but I don't think that I'm mean.
I didn't attack anyone on my statement, or label it with any name.

But you're right about one thing, everything is biased, depending on one's perspective.

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"There is no wrong or right, option to choose" lol.. Where did you learn this? Or are you gone absolutely mad after rejecting the God and His book?

My life experience thought me as such.

The second part sentence can be categorized as 'personal attack'.

But I'm curious how can somebody (or something for that matter) rejects God?
And what does "rejects a book" mean?


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But God's guidance is beyond mere right and wrong but clarification and verification to one's understanding...

God's guidance is a revelation to understand ...

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I can understand how cheap your perception has demoralised ....

Cheap? Demoralized? And perhaps you can show what is "Expensive" and "Moralizing".

What other think is "right", might be different than what others think is "right".
That's why right or wrong is merely a perception.

For example:
- The world is flat or round like a ball?

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"" Can you guarantee the safety of people by following your way against the evil of day of Resurrection or you would say on that day I was in error so advised my way of error and escape... ""

1. Interesting... the Evil of day of Resurrection, can you elaborate on this?
2. And why do you think your "Safety" is in danger? And why do you think people safety are in danger?
3. I never asked people to follow my way, nobody will follow exactly my way, everyone has their own unique way. Or perhaps you do asked other people to follow your way? And that's why you are assuming that I must have similar expectation?


jkhan

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Re: Do you think sincere sunni muslims can go to paradise
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2020, 10:36:09 PM »
"My life experience thought or (taught) me as such.. Either way.. If so then better say... " in my opinion or I think" before stating such... Rather than straight forward.. Your manifest straightforward statement cannot be withdrawn... Coz you said so.. As if that is the truth...

Further...  If you think personal attack... Then let me put this way in your own style.. There is no right or wrong.. So why you assume what I said to be personal attack.. It is only your imagination to take what you take.. Isn't it...?
When there is no right or wrong,  just choose whatever you like of my last thread ... What made you to judge me as personal attack while you are not in a position to identify right or wrong.. That's super hilarious.. So you know to find personal attack.. So opted the right choice... Or just a choice.. Be content dude.. ... Coz you can't find right and wrong.. But choice..
You are piece of joke..  Hmm.. Right or wrong?

Flat Earth?  Your concern...
Anything taken without verification is wrong.... That's what my Lord says.. Study verify and ensure what's right and wrong... Making mistakes or in doubts doesn't mean chosen the right or wrong

jkhan

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Re: Do you think sincere sunni muslims can go to paradise
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2020, 02:13:34 AM »
"

What other think is "right", might be different than what others think is "right".
That's why right or wrong is merely a perception
.

1. Interesting... the Evil of day of Resurrection, can you elaborate on this?

I don't need to explain to someone who has read Quran...


Right for one and right for another different... So what?  They have chosen the right thing but in different style.. But not the wrong thing... Right is right in whatever way it is done.. Wrong is wrong in whatever way it is done. For that first know what is right and wrong...

Kill a person in whatever way one like.. That's a wrong act.. Save a person whatever way one can that's right if he deserves... Is right and wrong option?  No way... 
Option is when you don't know what is right and wrong... Suppose if you don't know which way is heading to the palace.. Then we choose one way... No clue where it is heading.. That's the choice.. It may or may not take to palace.. But he never chose the right path with knowledge .. Being in a situation of unknown and harbouring doubts are not meant right or wrong.. It can apply to any situation or any belief..

God's guidance is different from all these.. That's mercy and not choice.. Knowing right and wrong will not always pave way to opt right..  That's one's own decision .. God will..


ade_cool

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Re: Do you think sincere sunni muslims can go to paradise
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2020, 10:28:15 AM »
Sincere Sunni will not stay Sunni

if they are truly sincere, they will ponder on things for examples:
- How is hadith so fundamental when prophet Muhammad himself didn't even care of preserving his own teachings?
- Nowadays we are still puzzled what is the meaning of Alif Lam Mim, Alif Lam Ra, etc. Did companions of the prophet never ask the prophet what is the meaning of those initials?
- Why are we told to uphold hadith despite clear contradictions with Quran (for example stoning adulterers, killing apostates, allowed to have sex with slaves without marriage, etc)?
- How reliable is it to compile sayings of someone already passed away 200 years ago?
- Who invented lies in hadith books? What are their motives? How can we be sure that hadiths that look "fine" are not actually fabrications considering we have found many shahih hadiths that contradict Quran, scientifically wrong, etc?
- Why shahih Bukhari, shahih Muslim, shahih Abu Dawud, shahih Malik, etc that we have to uphold? What about shia hadith books? What about ibadi hadith books? Should we not uphold prophet Muhammad's teachings just because they are compiled in non Sunni hadith books?
- Imam Bukhari rejected 99% of hadiths. The 1% that he compiled in shahih Bukhari turned out to be unreliable. How do we know that imam Bukhari correctly rejected the 99%? What if some of hadiths rejected by Bukhari are actually true? How do we follow prophet Muhammad's teachings if they are lost due to Bukhari's false rejection?

The same also applies for sincere Christian, sincere Shia, sincere Hindu, sincere Buddhist, etc. If they are truly sincere, they will follow guidance that comes to them and will not stay as they are.

At the end of the day, it is God who has complete knowledge on who is following His guidance regardless whether they are called or they call themselves Sunni, Shia, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.

Jafar

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Re: Do you think sincere sunni muslims can go to paradise
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2020, 11:01:10 AM »
What is right is what is the closest to reason as possible, untainted by emotions, selfless (thus untainted by emotion),thoughtful, rational,  done thoughtfully, intentionally and willingly.

What is wrong is simply what is unreasonable, emotional, impulsive, unthoughtful, irrational, self-serving, and is done under compulsion.

But to each their moral compass.

Your last statement is the key, wrong or right is biased to each perspective.

Self-serving, Self-centered is right and not wrong to those who are focusing towards it or choosing of such perspective. As such conquering / controlling other in order to ensure the self superiority is the right thing to do, for those who adopted such view.

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Second part is also wrong.

In order to bring about any real change then one will have to acquire the understanding of it, uncovering the reason behind it,"fixing" the way they perceive it. Having that understanding stamped in one's mind is what brings change. That is why we need to meditate on our actions and reflect constantly, in order to acquire a better understanding, an understanding closer to the perfect understanding, the one of our Creator   :peace:

You are describing the detail process on what will happened next after one truly wishing it.
It must started from the self truly wishing it, and cannot be instilled or enforced by others.
Any act by others to enforce is an urge towards controlling which was described on the above.
Whether the act to control others is right or wrong again depending on the perspective.

The attitude of acceptance can be achieved only in the absence of judgement (judging right or wrong) and viewing everything happened for a reason (although the reason might be unknown) and everything is already perfect as it is.




Cerberus

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Re: Do you think sincere sunni muslims can go to paradise
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2020, 04:17:21 PM »
Each person uses their sense of right and wrong, and it is something that can improve over time. If their ability to judge right from wrong is good then they should benefit greatly from it, and if they're not they should suffer from it. So each one uses it to guide their life and make decisions and opinions.

This doesn't mean there is no right or wrong.

We are all alike after all. If there is an ultimately right and ultimately wrong then these apply to everyone. But who possesses such knowledge and understanding among us ? Or maybe who is closer to such knowledge and understanding among us ? Irrelevant to answer.

Now to claim that one's moral compass is ultimately right is unnecessary...Because you can only use your moral compass to guide your life. If it's right/wrong then it can only benefit you or harm you. Forcing other people into adopting your own moral compass and principles makes no sense. After all, we are only responsible for our own life (that is a judgement too I guess)

Second part,
You can't be in a position where you "truly wish for something" on the basis of nothing. Understanding, knowledge, intention, perseverance, failure, more understanding, more knowledge, better intention....it's an ongoing process.


The attitude of acceptance can be achieved only in the absence of judgement (judging right or wrong) and viewing everything happened for a reason (although the reason might be unknown) and everything is already perfect as it is.


It depends. It is vital to be able to assess your actions, are they right according to you? are they wrong according to you ? In the light of this assessment one could build opinions on other people's actions.

That doesn't mean there is no acceptance when there is judgement.

Acceptance is done through understanding, that people act following their own principles or lack of principles. And that will inevitably benefit them or harm them. But if they were to ask for an advice, you'd be willing to tell them about what you think is right or wrong...
Maybe there are other ways to "acceptance", but my point is, the two aren't necessarilly mutually exclusive.

Outside human actions you shouldn't judge things as right or wrong. Judge based on what ? Someone might judge those outside events based on their expectations.....Again......

Jafar

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Re: Do you think sincere sunni muslims can go to paradise
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2020, 07:34:28 PM »
Each person uses their sense of right and wrong, and it is something that can improve over time.

Or drastically change over time...

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If their ability to judge right from wrong is good then they should benefit greatly from it, and if they're not they should suffer from it. So each one uses it to guide their life and make decisions and opinions.

This doesn't mean there is no right or wrong.

.Because you can only use your moral compass to guide your life. If it's right/wrong then it can only benefit you or harm you. Forcing other people into adopting your own moral compass and principles makes no sense. After all, we are only responsible for our own life (that is a judgement too I guess)

That doesn't mean there is no acceptance when there is judgement.

Acceptance is done through understanding, that people act following their own principles or lack of principles. And that will inevitably benefit them or harm them. But if they were to ask for an advice, you'd be willing to tell them about what you think is right or wrong...
Maybe there are other ways to "acceptance", but my point is, the two aren't necessarilly mutually exclusive.

It depends. It is vital to be able to assess your actions, are they right according to you? are they wrong according to you ? In the light of this assessment one could build opinions on other people's actions.


Outside human actions you shouldn't judge things as right or wrong. Judge based on what ? Someone might judge those outside events based on their expectations.....Again......

 

Yes right or wrong and good or evil (it's pretty much the same) exist yet it's biased in nature.
The matter is one of the main focus of Taoism philosophy..



To some black is right/good and white is bad / evil.
To some white is right/good and black is bad / evil.

And to some other, who prefer not to judge, the existence of both black and white is already perfect as it is.

Judging and acceptance has 'mutually exclusive' relation due to the something known as 'law of reciprocity'. You cannot judge and accept at the same time. But there is also an exception of: you can accept while you are judging only if you are capable of judging from or using all / holistic perspective, which is very hard to do.

The story of "Moses and one of our servant" is an example of the last statement.
Murdering a children, destroying a ship, doing a good favor to mean people is "unjustified" or "wrong" according to judgemental Moses. The servant decided to stop the 'lesson' and explained the 'all / holistic perspective' of the events which then the judgemental Moses able to accept.

And it's also best described on this passages from a jewish sage:

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."


Don't judge don't condemn yet forgive.
Forgiving is an act of acceptance driven by love as the truest form of love is unconditional love.
Or it can also be viewed as: once you judge then forgive to cancel out the effects of reciprocity.

This is applicable to both human or non-human action as nature as a whole is a unity in the first place thus truly it's hard to differentiate human or non-human action as human is part of nature.

Because actually when you judge something you are judging an aspect of the infinite creator.
And the same measure / standard that you are using to judge will be used back to you, a 100% reciprocity.
If your standard is low then you will also be judged with low standard.
If no standard (no judging) then you will also not be judged.

Thus if...
what you desire is unconditional love by the infinite creator, then show an unconditional love to It as well.
what you desire is acceptance by the infinite creator, then show an acceptance to It as well.

"forgive us our sins, as we also have forgiven those who sinned against us."

And later on as the story progress, the Jewish sage practice what he preached, he decided to totally accept his fate and instead of extracting revenge or rejection, decided to forgive those who have sinned against him.


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Second part,
You can't be in a position where you "truly wish for something" on the basis of nothing. Understanding, knowledge, intention, perseverance, failure, more understanding, more knowledge, better intention....it's an ongoing process.

I agree, an exposure is first needed.
Nobody can wish for something which they have no reference or exposure of.

Moses will never wish for a Ferrari sport car since he never been exposed to it in the first place...

And as you said it's an ongoing process, or to be more precise an ongoing lesson.



good logic

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Re: Do you think sincere sunni muslims can go to paradise
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2020, 02:23:36 AM »
That Jewish dude has also a lesson for you brother jafar, me, brother Ceberus and all the brothers and sisters here and elsewhere.

Like you accept black and white ,accept everyone and their views as part of what they are.
It means your views brother jafar have "black and white" in them, Mine have, brother Ceberus has and all the other brothers and sisters have

.Only then ,we can all move towards that universal unity.All of us as brothers and sisters, creation of our one and only Lord.

Hope you can see where I am coming from brother, every point of view needs its place so we can have an overview of the jigsaw to complete our picture as a whole.
Everyone ,regardless of their view plays the part of the whole, then we can all see the whole picture,eventually?.That is the most important truth .
GOD bless you and all the brothers and sisters everywhere in the world.
Peace.
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Cerberus

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Re: Do you think sincere sunni muslims can go to paradise
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2020, 05:26:47 PM »
@Jafar

You first need to make the distinction between judgements, what are you judging ? Because there is a difference. Judging your actions ? Judging outside events that you have no power over as being good or bad ? Judging nature as being good or bad ? Judging other people as being good or bad ?  Judging other people's actions as being good or bad ?


Same for acceptance, accepting yourself with your flaws ? Accepting other people with their flaws ? Accepting nature and outside events ?

Each single one of the above questions has its portion of understanding that the person needs to have. Putting everything in one basket is a sign of a lack of understanding, by claiming that Judgement is bad/wrong and that acceptance is good/right is itself a judgement. I already gave an example of acceptance and judgement coexisting together.
Acceptance itself is achieved through good judgement, based on some kind of understanding.

Change, that you brought up earlier, is done following a person's judgement.

The jewish sage is talking about judging people. There is no point in judging people, you'd be judging them based on your own principles. People have their own principles. There is no point in holding people to a standard that you have taken and that they may not have taken.

The story of moses and the man is not saying judgement is bad or wrong, but that things happen for a reason. In other words judging outside events is also pointless.

good logic

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Re: Do you think sincere sunni muslims can go to paradise
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2020, 05:23:56 AM »
Peace Cerberus.
 I am into the habit of replying to posts I enjoy reading with one or two lighthearted jokes.
I got into trouble in one of the threads earlier, I hope I am not going to get into trouble with you!
Basically your post had some good logic in it.
Here is your treat with good wisdom in it:

A hobbit was terribly overweight, so her doctor put her on a diet. "I want
you to eat regularly for 2 days, then skip a day, and repeat this procedure
for 2 weeks. The next time I see you, you’ll have lost at least 5 pounds."
When the hobbit returned, she shocked the doctor by losing nearly 20 pounds.
"Why, that’s amazing!" the doctor said, "Did you follow my instructions?"
The hobbit nodded. "I’ll tell you though, I thought I was going to drop dead that 3rd day."
"from hunger you mean?"
"No from skipping."

Thanks , I am on my way now, which reminds me:
I was taking the road out of the city the other day when someone told me to put it back.
GOD bless you brother.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/