Author Topic: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation  (Read 3801 times)

Iyyaka

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2020, 01:50:08 PM »
Salam,

Back to rational analysis : what does means "bibaṭni" before the word makkata (the context was already explains by Mazhar above) ?

   48:24 :
   And He (is) the One Who withheld their hands from you and your hands from them bibaṭni Makkah, after that He gave
   you victory over them. And is Allah of what you do All-Seer.
(classic translation)

1. Quranic Grammar :

bibaṭni = P – prefixed preposition bi
              N – genitive masculine noun
This form appears 17 times as the noun baṭn (بَطْن)

2. Intratextuality :

This form appaears 17 times, distributed as follows:
- 2 times figuratively (with the idea of resurrection in the same verse)
- 14 in the physical sense
    - 5 animals
    - 9 women
- 1 time with the preposition bi = "in/into"= Preposition generally marking the position inside a space.
Another example : 2:37 "biwādin" = in a valley/wadi.

3. Ideas inside this root word :

The concrete meaning of this form is the "belly".

This root mainly contains the following conceptual ideas:
- The inside, or interior, of anything (not apparent, obvious)
- middle/midst
- The lower, or lowest, part.

4. More from Lexicons :

in Lane's lexicon we find these ideas:
1) "Thus بَطْنُ وَادٍ means The interior of a water-course or riverbed [or valley; i. e. its bottom, in which flows, occasionally or constantly, its torrent or river]. "
2) "Also A low, or depressed, tract, or portion, of land, or ground;"

5. Conclusion :

Litt. "into the belly of makkah" ie Enter the heart of/inside/in the intimacy of Mecca ie it designate to "cross the road inside the city, which is not apparent from outside the city, and that divides the city into 2 sides.

A question that remains open: does the core of makkah form a geographical depression (In geomorphology, a depression is a topographic trough whose bottom altitude is lower than that of neighboring regions and whose slopes converge) with possibly a permanent or temporary watercourse?

jkhan

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2020, 08:35:38 PM »
Peace..

So Makka is proper noun as per your formula and not strange it is a proper noun for most and they all know where this proper noun is located... No harm.. If that is the guidance you feel you got what I can do.. I am innocent from what you do.. Vice versa

But for me Makka in 48:24 is "Mass" (a heavily crowded situation) ...
In that Mass (Messenger + his believers(ready to fight) + large number of disbelievers who are ready to fight and attack + unknown considerable number of innocent believing men and women)
Bi-batani makka....  In the midst of Mass.   that's my taking  ..
If they were in the heart of Makka then that can only be as per current day Kaaba surrounded masjid AL haram...
The word stamp / trample is very vital here for me...  Both believers from messenger side and disbelievers were made to keep away from fighting by Allah intentionally ..  Coz there were considerable number of believing men and women who were not recognizeable by believers.. ... 
Had they fought those innocent believing men and women would have been victim of great stampede  " in the midst of heavy crowd "....God saved them

Further God says THEY(disbelievers) were the people who barred the believers from reaching to masjid AL haram... Note.. If they were already in the heart of Makka then they are already in masjid AL haram (.as per current acceptance)  .. this shows while they were in the midst of mass they were not in masjid AL haram... Further,  already believing men and women were present among disbelievers so they didn't hinder them.. Had it been masjid AL haram.. Story would have been different..

What is midst of Makka and what correlation with midst of Makka and trample of people? Is Makka so small to get trampled...

 

Iyyaka

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2020, 11:24:23 PM »
Peace..

So Makka is proper noun as per your formula and not strange it is a proper noun for most and they all know where this proper noun is located... No harm.. If that is the guidance you feel you got what I can do.. I am innocent from what you do.. Vice versa

But for me Makka in 48:24 is "Mass" (a heavily crowded situation) ...
In that Mass (Messenger + his believers(ready to fight) + large number of disbelievers who are ready to fight and attack + unknown considerable number of innocent believing men and women)
Bi-batani makka....  In the midst of Mass.   that's my taking  ..
If they were in the heart of Makka then that can only be as per current day Kaaba surrounded masjid AL haram...
The word stamp / trample is very vital here for me...  Both believers from messenger side and disbelievers were made to keep away from fighting by Allah intentionally ..  Coz there were considerable number of believing men and women who were not recognizeable by believers.. ... 
Had they fought those innocent believing men and women would have been victim of great stampede  " in the midst of heavy crowd "....God saved them

Further God says THEY(disbelievers) were the people who barred the believers from reaching to masjid AL haram... Note.. If they were already in the heart of Makka then they are already in masjid AL haram (.as per current acceptance)  .. this shows while they were in the midst of mass they were not in masjid AL haram... Further,  already believing men and women were present among disbelievers so they didn't hinder them.. Had it been masjid AL haram.. Story would have been different..

What is midst of Makka and what correlation with midst of Makka and trample of people? Is Makka so small to get trampled...
Peace jkhan,

Thanks for sharing.

1.
I quote you : "Makka in 48:24 is "Mass" (a heavily crowded situation)"

=> In the Quran the appropriated word for "mass", in connection with the territory made famous by Abraham and Ismael, is more Bekka. indeed as Tabari underlined the word bakkah derives from the Arabic root bakka meaning to be tight, gathered in a crowd and the term bakkah has the fundamental meaning of: gathering. Furthermore, the structure of the textual unit where this word appears is in direct place with Hajj (massive gathering of pilgrims in a place to celebrate God in two major ways).

2.
I quote you : "The word stamp / trample is very vital here for me.".

   48-24 :
   And He (is) the One Who withheld their hands from you and your hands from them within Makkah, AFTER
   that He gave you victory over them. And is Allah of what you do All-Seer.
   48-25 :
   They (are) those who not firmly disbelieved and hindered you from Al-Masjid Al-Haraam while the offering (was)
   prevented from reaching its place/destination.
   And if not (for) men firmly believing and women firmly believing not you knew them
   that you may TRAMPLE them and would befall you from them any harm without knowledge.
   That Allah may admit to His Mercy whom He wills.
   If they had been apart surely, We would have punished those who disbelieved among them (with) a punishment painful.

=> Do not mix two different time sequences:
1) In 48-24 we are AFTER Muhammad "conquered" Makkah (in blue),
2) in 48-25 we are BEFORE Muhammad "conquered" Makkah (in blue) => a flashback.

3.
For the relationship between makkah and masjid al haram it seems clearer once the structure of sura 2 exposed (god willing - soon).

jkhan

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2020, 01:50:28 AM »
Thank you dude for your response...
But unfortunately you seems you have complicated with or without perceiving.. IT'S  NOT AFTER or TWO SEQUENCE OF TIME..
carefully read again without having any prebiased perception on these verses...
God says WITHHELD (kaffa) each others hands... i.e No war / fighting took place..  WHEN no fighting took place?  In fact when they were in the midst of Mass.. Agree??
Soon after, God says WITHHELD hands,  God refer AFTER THAT... It means God never referring to the crowded situation but after that crowded period.. Probably...  Coz there were no war or fight as per 48:24...but only referring another occasion in which in fact fighting took place.. Without fighting You can't have victory.. ... So in same verse 48:24 two key factors ( *No fighting and Victory against the same disbelievers) .. Ponder pls...
In 48:25 God brings back the story of 48:24 until part.. ... Saying if they were separated,  we would have punished... Remember while all of them were crowded no FIGHTING.. And in 48:25 no FIGHTING but pointing out the same disbelievers and what they did to believers once upon a time... But had there not been those group of unfamiliar believers story could have been different...
Definitely one set of believers no need to trample another set of believing men and women within a mass...

It is not two different time of sequence.. No one conquered Makka as you claim by this verse.. All imagination of conquering imaginary Makka which never existed with the advent of this verse... .
God with obvious words confirms that Bakka is the place of first house..3:96...

So to summarise....
*** 48:24 first part No fightimg... Second part Victory, of course no victory without fighting..

*** 48:25 : referring the first part of 48:24 as flashback... Coz 48:25 not referring any fighting or victory...

Iyyaka

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2020, 05:12:03 AM »
Peace Jkhan,

I do not agree with your conclusions. But I recognize that the use of the English term "conquered" in my last post was not really appropriate.
But before we start, we have to clarify a point about what you said: "of course no victory without fighting" = a victory can be the result of a fight or not (unless I misunderstood your point).

So now, let's take a larger overview to better understand these 2 verses: 48-24 and 48-25.
These two verses are part of a larger whole which goes from verse 18 to verse 27. I will not go into the details of its structure here but we will highlight some important inks-elements (Translation from shakir) :
"
[48-18] Certainly Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance to you under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquility on them and rewarded them with a near victory,
[48-19] And many acquisitions which they will take; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
--------------------------
[48-20] Allah promised you many acquisitions which you will take, then He hastened on this one for you and held back the hands of men from you, and that it may be a sign for the believers and that He may guide you on a right path.
[48-21] And others which you have not yet been able to achieve Allah has surely encompassed them, and Allah has power over all things.

[48-22] And if those who disbelieve fight with you, they would certainly turn (their) backs, then they would not find any protector or a helper.
[48-23] Such has been the course of Allah that has indeed run before, and you shall not find a change in Allah's course.
[48-24] And He it is Who held back their hands from you and your hands from them in the valley of Mecca after He had given you triumph over them; and Allah is Seeing what you do.

[48-25] It is they who disbelieved and turned you away from the Masjid al-Harâm and (turned off) the offering withheld from arriving at its destined place; and were it not for the believing men and the believing women, whom, not having known, you might have trodden down, and thus something hateful might have afflicted you on their account without knowledge-- so that Allah may cause to enter into His mercy whomsoever He pleases; had they been widely separated one from another, We would surely have punished those who disbelieved from among them with a painful punishment.

[48-26] When those who disbelieved harbored in their hearts (feelings of) disdain, the disdain of (the days of) ignorance, but Allah sent down His tranquility on His Messenger and on the believers, and made them keep the word of guarding (against evil), and they were entitled to it and worthy of it; and Allah is Cognizant of all things.

[48-27] Certainly Allah had shown to His Messenger the vision with truth: you shall most certainly enter Masjid al-Harâm, if Allah pleases, in security, (some) having their heads shaved and (others) having their hair cut, you shall not fear, but He knows what you do not know, so He made besides that near victory.
"
----------------------

Thus, we have 2 different time sequences:
1) Aborted attempt of Pilgrimage to Masjid al-Harâm => prevented. Negotiation with not fight (almost!)- In red below
2) then, another year, Pilgrimage success to Masjid al-Harâm without final victory over the Makkans = Triumph - In Orange below
In green in the text, the result of the transition from time sequence 1 to time sequence 2 = ultimately, Triumph for Allah.

----------------------
"
[48-18] Certainly Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance to you under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquility on them and rewarded them with a near victory,
[48-19] And many acquisitions which they will take; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
--------------------------
[48-20] Allah promised you many acquisitions which you will take, then He hastened on this one for you and held back the hands of men from you, and that it may be a sign for the believers and that He may guide you on a right path.
[48-21] And others which you have not yet been able to achieve Allah has surely encompassed them, and Allah has power over all things.

[48-22] And if those who disbelieve fight with you, they would certainly turn (their) backs, then they would not find any protector or a helper.
[48-23] Such has been the course of Allah that has indeed run before, and you shall not find a change in Allah's course.
[48-24] And He it is Who held back their hands from you and your hands from them in the valley of Mecca after He had given you TRIUMPH over them; and Allah is Seeing what you do.

[48-25] It is they who disbelieved and turned you away from the Masjid al-Harâm and (turned off) the offering withheld from arriving at its destined place; and were it not for the believing men and the believing women, whom, not having known, you might have trodden down, and thus something hateful might have afflicted you on their account without knowledge-- so that Allah may cause to enter into His mercy whomsoever He pleases; had they been widely separated one from another, We would surely have punished those who disbelieved from among them with a painful punishment.

[48-26] When those who disbelieved harbored in their hearts (feelings of) disdain, the disdain of (the days of) ignorance, but Allah sent down His tranquility on His Messenger and on the believers, and made them keep the word of guarding (against evil), and they were entitled to it and worthy of it; and Allah is Cognizant of all things.

[48-27] Certainly Allah had shown to His Messenger the vision with truth: you shall most certainly enter Masjid al-Harâm, if Allah pleases, in security, (some) having their heads shaved and (others) having their hair cut, you shall not fear, but He knows what you do not know, so He made besides that a near victory.
"

jkhan

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2020, 05:45:05 PM »
Peace....
Whatever you have written in your last reply, I don't see any debate but mere verses...
If conquered is not the right option just pls replace it with right word so that readers will have an idea what you mean by conquered Makka...
Regarding victory in verse 48:24 ... You will definitely find that it is not a morale victory or victory without fighting... God used the word OVER THEM .. This time hands were withheld but when God gave victory (ẓā fā rā) it was fighting... Gave victory over them. You can get advantage or morale victory without fighting or terrorizing them to surrender.. but you can't get victory over anyone without fighting.  Specially in a war. You can't merely call we won OVER THEM... and note the word AFTER THAT.. what it indicates is they didn't fight amidst crowd (hands withheld) but after that hands were not withheld and  gave victory over them.. By the word of punish we can imagine it was not meant mere morale victory but war... But it was to happen but God withheld hands.. But gave what's missed out on another occasion.

Strange part is.. If you even take it as not a victory without fighting then why did you intentionally called it "conquered Makka " two times..(that is your genuine view as of all conventional muslim) How can one conquer without fighting unless one or the other surrender? Even to surrender one side need mighty power exposed either before fighting or during fighting...

Iyyaka

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2020, 11:53:21 PM »
I am not as an expert in English as you are brother. For me the word "conquer" (i put it in quotation marks the first time i used it) can be used in different context but maybe it is too loaded with warrior connotations. This is why by using this term I recognized that I could introduce confusion..And of course the translation of Shakir (i used it as reference) can be improve. But the debate around the word "conquer" is not the substance of the debate.

At one point in the debate, debate is almost useless. Only God can change hearts (sense of reflection), for you as for me.
It is more useful to invite to meditation, reflection by taking as support the text which must unite us: the Quran.
And thanks to you because your posts invited me to meditate again this passage of sura 48.

The Quran is not only the reflection of a language but also of the way of structuring a thought. this structuring of thought influences the understanding of the text. It is this structuring that i wanted to introduce with colors. Meditate on it, and you will see that God gives the keys to understanding himself: he is the supreme arbiter.
And that the access formula in the textual sense of the quran confirms the traditional vision so good otherwise it is not a problem for me to go beyond old production.

Peace to you brother and that his speech (words + structure) is highlighted as it deserves.

Mazhar

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2020, 12:40:57 AM »
وَهُوَ ٱلَّذِى كَفَّ أَيْدِيَـهُـمْ عَنكُـمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُـمْ عَنْـهُـم بِبَطْنِ مَكَّـةَ
And He the Exalted is the One Who withheld the hands of them (Non-believers) away from you and the hands of you people away from them in indulging hand to hand fight in the interior of Mecca —
مِنۢ بَعْدِ أَنْ أَظْفَرَكُمْ عَلَيْـهِـمْۚ
After He the Exalted had made you people overwhelm upon them.
Root: ظ ف ر
وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيـرٙا .48:24٢٤
And Allah the Exalted was watching everything that you people were acting upon. [48:24]

The fact mentioned in the first line is an event that happened after the time and event mentioned by the Prepositional Phrase coupled with two successive Possessive Phrases and followed by Prepositional Phrase. It shows no full fledged war had taken place, and victory was gained without much bloodshed. The Topic of the Narrative is:
إِنَّا فَتَحْنَا لَكَ فَتْحٙا مُّبِينٙا .48:01١
Indeed Our Majesty have gained victory for you (the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam]), in the manner of decisive and vivid victory— [48:01]

jkhan

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2020, 02:55:25 AM »
Peace brothers…
My English…lol…
Dude… You have not written Conquer of Makka in two places blindly or accidentally … So if not Conquer, just replace with the right word or just point where in quran Conquering  / bla bla of makka is stated.. I told you I may be distorting your topic and I withdrew… but you only dragged me in again.. anyway.. God will..

DEBATE is no harm at all… with debate I have reached this far not only in this forum but personally as well… Debate shows us our weaknesses and strengths… If we are honest we can learn from our weaknesses and find the right path… Of course God will, we will get guidance…. Who knows through what God intend guidance…. Will everyone talk to us what they feel within their heart how they got guidance…. What you, me and everyone here on this forum if they are true believers doing only to pass right message as per their understanding of quran… That’s all..

In addition to that… word “Fathi” never gives me an impression as victory gained fought… It only gives me something like conquest or subjugation or simply being in a satisfied situation well under control and dominance over another….war could be part of it and may not be in all Fathi… For example.. if you read with much pondering, you will grasp what I grasped in sha allah..
57:10 “How is it with you, that you expend not in the way of God, and to God belongs the inheritance of the heavens and the earth? Not equal is he among you who SPENT, and who FOUGHT before the “Fathi”; those are mightier in rank than they who SPENT and FOUGHT afterwards (after ‘Fathi’); and unto each God has promised the reward most fair; and God is aware of the things you do.”

110:1-2 “When comes the help of God, and Fathi, and you see men entering God's religion/system(deen) in throngs, …”
So Fathi is not merely fighting and gaining war victory… it seems beyond that of long term struggle came to an end with dominance.. there could be some near or short term Fathi… But Fathi is different in quran… it is not two groups fight and one win at one instance… By order of revelation of quran you may find… 48:24 second part is just a victory over a war / fight...
Unfortunately both you and mazhr never gave me any concrete support from quran to give the meaning to Makka as Proper noun in comparison of verses 48:24-25….. rather than directly or indirectly your minds are prejudiced to current day Makka by this verse which I have no reason to accept within quran… God knows the real story…. May God guide us..

TellMeTheTruth

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2020, 03:11:28 AM »
Salam!
Arabic scholars say that everything of great importance has numerous names/words for it in Arabic. I wonder why the word/name for sword is not present in AQ while it is said that there are almost 300 words for sword/types of swords in Arabic.
Peace!