Author Topic: 30:3 lowest point on earth?  (Read 4361 times)

jkhan

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Re: 30:3 lowest point on earth?
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2019, 12:36:57 AM »
Salam brother.

We are not in disagreement on the variations in meanings of words (like "ayah" can mean "sign" or "verse" - depending on context).

If you take Rome/Persia version, then "adna" fits better as "near" - if you take the Rome/Muslim version, then "adna" fits better as "lowest".

That is why I was asking which reading you are looking at.

Rome/Muslim battles have been documented. First battle occurring at Mutah in 629AD (present day Jordan - near the Dead Sea), second battle occurred at Yarmouk in 636AD(present day Syria/Israel). First battle was a victory for Rome, second was a defeat. Battles occurred within 7-years of each other, which is in-line with the word "bid3 sineen" (a few years "3-10 max").

Roman/Persian battles are a mess lasting 721 years and taking place all over the Middle East.

I get you.. But for the argument sake let me explain

8:42 "when you were on the near side of the valley, and they were on the farther side, and the caravan was lower [in position] than you. If you had made an appointment [to meet], you would have missed the appointment. But [it was] so that Allah might accomplish a matter already destined - that those who perished [through disbelief] would perish upon evidence and those who lived [in faith] would live upon evidence; and indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing"

I am not here alter your opinions...  But your opinions of meaning didn't convince me.. The above verse may give you a better picture.. God used three type length... Near,  far and lower... Used three different words... Dunya, Quswa and Asfala respectively to mean Nearer,  farther and lower...  So...  30:3 in my understanding has to be close-by land...

@ brother Mazhar..
Okay let it be superlative but why lowest instead of nearest ..

jkhan

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Re: 30:3 lowest point on earth?
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2019, 12:56:31 AM »
Salam jkhan.

Saying "adna" is "nearest" simply ads no value to the statement as all wars are fought near or far. Also, "adna" has been used in the Quran for lowest (see 2:61) - which is consistent to this context.

You can't say probably no value in the statement if doesn't mean lowest... It can still mean with close-by land.. That gives clear picture where Mohamed lived..  If people claim Mohamed lived in Makka then as you say it is documented(lets take it true) so mutha in Jordan near dead Sea is not nearer.. That's far away from Makka... So they fought in a place nearer to their dwelling place... So Makka cannot be the place where Mohamed lived.. ...  We can't say the verse doesn't give meaning...  It gave meaning to the yester year people and it gives meaning for us as well..  If taken as lowest.. Most probably it would not give any meaning to the ancient folks.. What lowest?  That could be there question..  Coz it was not a prophecy but god talking about an incident which happend during their life time and the prophecy is the second one the defeat...

Adna is the word God used whether it gives value or not we will know..

Mazhar

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Re: 30:3 lowest point on earth?
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2019, 02:16:44 AM »
Quote
brother Mazhar..
Okay let it be superlative but why lowest instead of nearest ..

Just google to locate the lowest area of the Earth. does not mean "near". When two things are compared it means one thing inferior or lower than the other mentioned; when superlative it means "the lowest" of its second entity of possessive phrase. In Arabic words for the concept of "near" and "far-distant" are different.


إِذْ أَنتُـم بِالْعُدْوَةِ ٱلدُّنْيَا وَهُـم بِٱلْعُدْوَةِ ٱلْقُصْوَىٰ وَٱلرَّكْبُ أَسْفَلَ مِنكُـمْۚ

That day you people were on the lower level corner and they, the approaching army of infidels of Mecca. were on the farther higher altitude corner, while the Merchant Caravan was relatively at a lower level ground than you people.

This gives the picture of the battlefield and positioning of three parties. This location and positioning caused optical illusion for the incoming enemy army about the strength of Believers.

jkhan

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Re: 30:3 lowest point on earth?
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2019, 06:12:58 PM »
Just google to locate the lowest area of the Earth. does not mean "near". When two things are compared it means one thing inferior or lower than the other mentioned; when superlative it means "the lowest" of its second entity of possessive phrase. In Arabic words for the concept of "near" and "far-distant" are different.


إِذْ أَنتُـم بِالْعُدْوَةِ ٱلدُّنْيَا وَهُـم بِٱلْعُدْوَةِ ٱلْقُصْوَىٰ وَٱلرَّكْبُ أَسْفَلَ مِنكُـمْۚ

That day you people were on the lower level corner and they, the approaching army of infidels of Mecca. were on the farther higher altitude corner, while the Merchant Caravan was relatively at a lower level ground than you people.

This gives the picture of the battlefield and positioning of three parties. This location and positioning caused optical illusion for the incoming enemy army about the strength of Believers.

Salam Mazhar...

No way near to the real words of Quran your translations...  What makes you to exaggerate by words... That you only know why you do that... Just speak what is written in the verse... That's worthy... Isn't it brother?

Pls you or anyone just read all the verses of Adna or Quswa or Asfala in entire Quran...  Then you yourself decide what's the best suited meaning here in 30:3 ...  Thank you..

Mazhar

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Re: 30:3 lowest point on earth?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2019, 11:09:38 PM »
Salam Mazhar...

No way near to the real words of Quran your translations...  What makes you to exaggerate by words... That you only know why you do that... Just speak what is written in the verse... That's worthy... Isn't it brother?

Pls you or anyone just read all the verses of Adna or Quswa or Asfala in entire Quran...  Then you yourself decide what's the best suited meaning here in 30:3 ...  Thank you..

This Prepositional Phrase coupled with Possessive Phrase is solitary occurrence in Qur'an: فِـىٓ أَدْنَـى ٱلۡأَرْضِ.


Exaggeration and avoiding translation loss are two different things. Please remember Arabic is not translatable by following old theory of "word by word" and sense by sense translation.

Translating Grand Qur’ān in the 21st century
Self translation and comprehension of Grand Qur’ān through Triplet Theory of Translation

http://haqeeqat.pk/TranslationOfQuran.htm

jkhan

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Re: 30:3 lowest point on earth?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2019, 11:42:31 PM »
This Prepositional Phrase coupled with Possessive Phrase is solitary occurrence in Qur'an: فِـىٓ أَدْنَـى ٱلۡأَرْضِ.


Exaggeration and avoiding translation loss are two different things. Please remember Arabic is not translatable by following old theory of "word by word" and sense by sense translation.

Translating Grand Qur’ān in the 21st century
Self translation and comprehension of Grand Qur’ān through Triplet Theory of Translation

http://haqeeqat.pk/TranslationOfQuran.htm

Peace..

I do absolutely agree that we cannot translate with every word as it is.. Coz understanding is the translation...  But biasing with manipulation or additional words which has no value is beyond translation...

Just look at your translation brother.. Why do you add Macca or approaching army infidels or higher etc.. These are too much... It's not translation.. It is your own quran... I wonder what you expect by exaggeration of words.. Do you think you can give better picture than God?
I wonder what's wrong with some believers...

Pls remember there are millions of people who only depend on translated version of Quran so adding words which is not there is such a blasphemy... If one read your translations then they would think Macca is in fact in Arabic Quran

Mazhar

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Re: 30:3 lowest point on earth?
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2019, 01:32:46 AM »
Peace..

I do absolutely agree that we cannot translate with every word as it is.. Coz understanding is the translation...  But biasing with manipulation or additional words which has no value is beyond translation...

Just look at your translation brother.. Why do you add Macca or approaching army infidels or higher etc.. These are too much... It's not translation.. It is your own quran... I wonder what you expect by exaggeration of words.. Do you think you can give better picture than God?
I wonder what's wrong with some believers...

Pls remember there are millions of people who only depend on translated version of Quran so adding words which is not there is such a blasphemy... If one read your translations then they would think Macca is in fact in Arabic Quran

The methodology for translation indicated in Qur'an itself is that firstly segment the text into Frame (فَصَلْتُ الشَّيءَ فَصْلاً).

http://haqeeqat.pk/TranslationTripletTheory.htm

 The Frame is 8:41-44.

You also are not noticing that Ayah 8:42 is a dependent clause for which reason understanding it you need to keep in  mind the main clause.

Further you are not realizing the importance of what is called "anaphora resolution". I do it in the translation, otherwise the translation loss will render the sentence ambiguous for the reader. 'they" needs to be mentioned as to who were they.

Pl just skim it

8:41-44decisive Battle of Badar

seekingtruth1111

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Re: 30:3 lowest point on earth?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2019, 03:30:43 AM »
If it is lowest point of earth then was this verse meant to  be understood only by the later generation when humans discovered that dead sea is the lowest point of earth?

Mazhar

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Re: 30:3 lowest point on earth?
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2019, 03:52:40 AM »
If it is lowest point of earth then was this verse meant to  be understood only by the later generation when humans discovered that dead sea is the lowest point of earth?

It was understood all the time. Sentence is informative. Anytime one can try verifying an information.

jkhan

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Re: 30:3 lowest point on earth?
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2019, 05:56:44 PM »
The methodology for translation indicated in Qur'an itself is that firstly segment the text into Frame (فَصَلْتُ الشَّيءَ فَصْلاً).

http://haqeeqat.pk/TranslationTripletTheory.htm

 The Frame is 8:41-44.

You also are not noticing that Ayah 8:42 is a dependent clause for which reason understanding it you need to keep in  mind the main clause.

Further you are not realizing the importance of what is called "anaphora resolution". I do it in the translation, otherwise the translation loss will render the sentence ambiguous for the reader. 'they" needs to be mentioned as to who were they.

Pl just skim it

8:41-44decisive Battle of Badar

Peace...
I don't want to further continue reiterating the same...  I do very well aware anaphora resolution... Brother if it is translation let it be translation ..if you want make interpretation then let it be interpretation....  Then it is your view.. Let it be ambiguous... Is that an issue for you?  So you clarify in translation itself what's ambiguous by inserting your personal opinion... So your personal opinion of the verse adapting with additional words becomes true and so that it is not ambiguous... Brothers that's worse than hadith... Just translate it... People grasp or not grasp is not your duty... For that God is around... For that the one who reach Quran will explore..
Honestly disgusting what you doing...  And still you are not getting.. Do you know how I struggled with such biased translation and foot note... Just be aware that God doesn't like speaking the lies... What if your AR is wrong assumption?  Then who will be responsive misguiding... Just translate dude.. That's more than truth... How strong the advice of God to Mohamed if he include anything into Quran  .. So my humble advice.. I know you won't take it as positive... But true believers know that addition and deletion of real words from QURAN is not acceptable... Then it cannot be Quran...

Anticipate one day you will understand that you cannot play around with words of God... That's my wish.. Specially while translating.. Not while giving interpretation or personal understanding of Quran... If one not understand fir example one word and translated according to how he understood is no harm.. Coz that's his comprehension at that time...