Author Topic: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)  (Read 1260 times)

jkhan

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2019, 04:58:32 AM »
Salam brother,
Thanks

I will not give here my definition of SIYAM coz it needs a big analysis, even if  Allah give the answer directly by the text but we are blinded by our prejudices. I just want to focus on the fact that sawm is not SIYAM even if SAWM can be practice during the time of siyam OTHERWISE Allah is contradict himself and it is unacceptable for a mumin. Finally, I will not discuss AGAIN about the fact that "to fast" is NOT a transitive verb and to translate like this in 2-185 is grammatically incorrect, in english like in arabic.

After this parenthesis, i want to underline that you have reason to make a focus on the words ḥattā/until and ilā/till in 2-187.
ilā (à, vers in french) can be inclusive (not ḥattā) SO it is clear just by using this word that "eat and drink" is from ENTERING the night ḥattā/until the emergence of the dawn.

You said "Meticulously look at the verse" - funny that's what i invited you too..just by the words of Allah not by any personal opinions.
So i am going to take back my example from the Quran :

   "
   Traditionnal statement: SIYAM = "do not eat and drink during the day time."

   Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187:
   First part:
   "And eat and drink until become separate from the thread [the] white from the thread [the] black of [the] dawn.
   Second part:
   "thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.
   "

Why is there a contradiction here between the traditionnal statement and words of Allah ?
the first part is NOT about siyam IF we follow the logic of the traditional statement, right ? because in the first part is about eating and drinking. Ok. Let's continue.
And now, in the second part, Allah asks you to "Complete" SIYAM until you entering the night. How is it possible to complete something that is not siyam ? So you have a contradiction here.
Hope my reasoning if more clear.

To conclude just by using words of Allah :
- SIYAM is a 24 hours period of time
- SAWM (in this context of 2-183...187 is about "not to eat and drink" - the word is implicit) is only during day time.
You will see that all the passage will become more clear after that.

A remark : Allah doesn't say "and eat and drink and have sex..". Allah is precise and clear. Sorry but Rafatha doesn't means in the quranic context "having sexual relationship with a woman" but "say obscene and rude remarks" like in 2-197 (look at the context).

Peace...
If you are not sure what the definition of siyam then you don't have any right to claim by saying contradiction... Isn't it..
If you feel you are prejudiced to traditional siyam then I can't help.. But I am never ever prejudiced to anything but only look for mere guidance...
So you workout first your understanding then let us all know your understanding...
I have given my understanding already...

Further if siyam is not fasting and something else in your understanding just explain what is it and how you do it... That's worthy for the readers.. Even I ask this form sister Hourya
Peace

jkhan

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2019, 05:36:21 AM »
@Iyyaka

Further... I should have replied this...
You are saying contradiction emphasising that FIRST part and SECOND part..
That's funny.. You divided into parts... Your misunderstanding made you to claim up to the extent of saying contradiction...
There is no parts..
Brother... How can one fast without eating... Isn't it the responsibility of God to explain what to do before fast.. Otherwise people would continue for days without eating or they would take it as 24 hours fasting by only eating at the advent of night only...
Look brother.. Take example of Salat... God says four steps before salat.. 4 body parts to be cleaned unless of course if we had a full bath..
So this cleaning part is not part of Salat but prior to Salat it is kind of a practice which is imperative..
Same way... Before fasting eating and drinking is must... What's wrong with logic? I wonder..
So first part is must though  it is not part of fasting but without it there is no fasting... Got it?

Wakas

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2019, 05:53:26 AM »
peace,

   "
   Traditionnal statement: SIYAM = "do not eat and drink during the day time."

   Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187:
   First part:
   "And eat and drink until become separate from the thread [the] white from the thread [the] black of [the] dawn.
   Second part:
   "thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.
   "

Why is there a contradiction here between the traditionnal statement and words of Allah ?
the first part is NOT about siyam IF we follow the logic of the traditional statement, right ? because in the first part is about eating and drinking. Ok. Let's continue.
And now, in the second part, Allah asks you to "Complete" SIYAM until you entering the night. How is it possible to complete something that is not siyam ? So you have a contradiction here.
Hope my reasoning if more clear.

To conclude just by using words of Allah :
- SIYAM is a 24 hours period of time
- SAWM (in this context of 2-183...187 is about "not to eat and drink" - the word is implicit) is only during day time.
You will see that all the passage will become more clear after that.


That is not a contradiction. The error is in your reasoning. Let's work through it step by step...

The verse literally says:
do X and Y until Z then complete siyam to the night


If someone says to you "do X and Y until Z", it is clear Z is the point at which doing X and Y ends. When/after Z occurs there is no more doing X and Y.

Do you agree/disagree?

If you disagree please explain why.

If you agree, then it is clear at point Z eating/drinking ends, and thus a fast has begun. Thus, when it then says "THEN complete the siyam to night" is self-explanatory, i.e. complete the fast that has already begun (at point Z) to the night.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Iyyaka

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2019, 09:52:40 AM »
@ Jkhan= debate is useless and sterile with you. Your opinion is so strong and you don't really take time to meditate quranic evidence i exposed you. Probably my bad english.

@ Wakas
"If someone says to you "do X and Y until Z", it is clear Z is the point at which doing X and Y ends. When/after Z occurs there is no more doing X and Y.

Do you agree/disagree?"
=> Of course yes..The problem between us i think is about the word "complete/atimmu". For you siyam begins at dawn and for me it must be completed at day time. the word complete implies that something was starting before.

Houriya

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2019, 11:07:04 AM »
Peace Jkhan,

My goal is to share my understanding, I have no power to convince anyone.

Only God can enlighten us.

We must take the time to meditate each verse in order to see clearly later.

Meditation can help to see things clearly in different aspects of our life

I meditated on Nawat's article several days before I decided to share it with you and discuss it.

No worries if we agree on our disagreement.

May God increases our knowledge

God bless


jkhan

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2019, 05:29:57 PM »
@ Jkhan= debate is useless and sterile with you. Your opinion is so strong and you don't really take time to meditate quranic evidence i exposed you. Probably my bad english.

@ Wakas
"If someone says to you "do X and Y until Z", it is clear Z is the point at which doing X and Y ends. When/after Z occurs there is no more doing X and Y.

Do you agree/disagree?"
=> Of course yes..The problem between us i think is about the word "complete/atimmu". For you siyam begins at dawn and for me it must be completed at day time. the word complete implies that something was starting before.

Iyykaka...
If you find it hard to debate with me.. It's fine I won't compel you...  I don't see that you have perceived Siyam... Nothing you exposed.. You yourself claimed that there is contradiction.. Only one thing God prescribed that's Siyam... No 24 hours of period of siyam... Siyam is only when that happens... That's why God clarifies and allow approaching wives at night to negate such misunderstanding...  If it was restricted before revelation of Quran approaching wives at night is not known coz QURAN only we look for guidance.. Since those who perform fasting even before Quran revelations seems to be  somehow have approached their wives at night and that God pardoning saying betraying self. So if God pardons then must have been restrictions at night for approaching wife... That's not necessary for us.. Coz Quran clarifies No to wives during day..Yes at night.. We are not the community before Quran but after..

Your English has no flaws n I understand...  I agree my English is the weakest coz I know how bad I was in English at college even now😩... But Law is my favorite subject...
Had I known to explain using best language within few sentences I would have...  But always use longer threads coz that's how I am comfortable to explain.. For that I beg you pardon from all... Be patient while reading my threads..

No grudges okay dude Iyykaka.. We search for guidance...

jkhan

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2019, 05:39:12 PM »
Peace Jkhan,

My goal is to share my understanding, I have no power to convince anyone.

Only God can enlighten us.

We must take the time to meditate each verse in order to see clearly later.

Meditation can help to see things clearly in different aspects of our life

I meditated on Nawat's article several days before I decided to share it with you and discuss it.

No worries if we agree on our disagreement.

May God increases our knowledge

God bless

Peace Sister..

Convince doesn't mean that I or you or anyone should make other believe in what is debated and make them guide... No.. No... God will guide.. What I always mean by convince is.. We debate and if we all involved in debate then it is with the willingness we participate.. So what is debated should have meaning with the Quran.... And the questions of other debators should be precisely answered... If one remains on his or her own conviction... So we can deduce that the conviction of her or his is within the context of Quran... We are not here to debate uselessly or to pass time.. While someone exposing and at that time withdraw and say "my understanding  is for me and your understanding is for you".. Then no point of arguing... At some point we should stop the same topic of argument with conclusion... Coz God says He clarifies His verses.. And it seems 2:183-187 are simple manifest verses... How come I am on one side and you are on another side and others may be in some other side.. Who is right? What is actually God revealed and what Mohamed practiced and what his people practiced calling siyam.. Let's approach that one truth... Escaping saying I am doing what I'm doing is meaningless... 

Further... I missed to state below...

God prescribed Siyam and not Sawm...
2:183 " O you who have believed, prescibed upon you is fasting (SIYAM) as it was prescribed upon those before you that you may become righteous."

God prescribed Siyam... If you confuse it as Sawm... Then better explore... That's why I brought order of revelation.  .after prescribing Siyam in verse 2:183 all Siyam verses revealed... And not before 2:183...
But the word Sawm in chapter 19 is revealed even well before the verse 2:183 revealed.... Coz chapter 19 was revealed as 44th sura and chapter 2 in which fasting was prescribed is revealed as 87th Sura....(2:196, 4:92, 5:89, 5:95, 58:04, 33:35 all these Siyam verses revealed after 2:183 but)That's order of revelation.... (Sawm in 19:26 was revealed well before all above verses and all verses are siyam but 19:26 is not siyam but Sawm) In my assumptions order of revelation is precise...
Sawm in 19:26 has no connection with Siyam in rest of the quran... Siyam is not Sawm...
Further Maryam didn't say Siyam...  We don't vowe a Siyam for God... But we fast (Siyam)  for ourselves for our own benefit and to become muttaqun and to get status which we don't know but God promises...
But Maryam vowed a Sawm for Arrahman.. That's the difference... When we vowe there is a commitment between us and God... Fasting is not a vowe at all...

Wakas

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2019, 12:48:54 AM »
peace,


@ Wakas
"If someone says to you "do X and Y until Z", it is clear Z is the point at which doing X and Y ends. When/after Z occurs there is no more doing X and Y.

Do you agree/disagree?"
=> Of course yes..The problem between us i think is about the word "complete/atimmu". For you siyam begins at dawn and for me it must be completed at day time. the word complete implies that something was starting before.

Sorry, but you have contradictory positions.

On the one hand you agree (at Z no more X and Y, ergo, a fast has started at point Z) but then say "the word complete implies that something was starting before ". You already admitted (indirectly) it (a fast) has started, so what's the problem?

Your position makes no sense and is contradictory.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Houriya

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2019, 01:48:29 AM »
Peace,

2:184    A few number of days. Whoever of you is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it / waan tasoomoo is better for you if only you knew.

2:185    Shahr Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed alshashahr shall fast it / falyasumu; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

When one had witnessed Shahr Ramadhan, what are we doing ?

I asoom, you tasoom / tasoomoo, we nasoom, the action is sawm, the same letters are repeated S W M.

what did this Marie did during the action of  sawm, she tasoom (S W M).


Houriya

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2019, 04:03:12 AM »
They / yasoomoon from the action of sawm.