Author Topic: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)  (Read 444 times)

Iyyaka

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THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« on: September 13, 2019, 10:46:44 AM »
Salam,

18:22 :
1- They will say: "Three, the fourth is their dog."
2- And they say: "Five, the sixth is their dog,"
3- conjecturing with the occult.
4- And they say: "Seven, and the eighth is their dog."
5- Say: "My Lord is fully aware of their number, none know them except for a few."
6- So do not argue regarding them except with proof, and do not seek information regarding them from anyone.

Here i share with you 3 remarks (others signs exist but it is not the subject here - i focus ONLY on THIS AYAT) that lead to think of the number 7 (eight if you include the dog).

(1)
The words of the sentence 1,2 and 4 are the same (I do not speak of conjugation but of words)  except that in sentence 3 it adds a "wa".

   18:22 :
   1- They will say: "Three, the fourth is their dog."
   2- And they say: "Five, the sixth is their dog,"
   3- conjecturing with the occult.
   4- And they say: "Seven, and the eighth is their dog."

=> Arabic language proof: in the Arabic language more we say things more that shows that it is strong, of importance (you put the emphasis on it). This version is therefore preferred.

(2)
Sentence 3 is quoted AFTER opinion 1 and 2 but BEFORE option 3 (sentence 4)

 18:22 :
   1- They will say: "Three, the fourth is their dog."
   2- And they say: "Five, the sixth is their dog,"
   3- conjecturing with the occult.
   -----------------------------------------------
   4- And they say: "Seven, and the eighth is their dog."

=> the conjecture therefore concerns opinion 1 and 2 and not opinion 3 (sentence 4). It is a clue that sentence 4 gives the right solution

(3)
Who is Allah addressed to?

18:22 :
   1- They will say: "Three, the fourth is their dog."
   2- And they say: "Five, the sixth is their dog,"
   3- conjecturing with the occult.
   -----------------------------------------------
   4- And they say: "Seven, and the eighth is their dog."
   5- Say: "My Lord is fully aware of their number, none know them except for a few."

=> Allah first uses the future then the present and then AGAIN present tense after the sentence 3.
Thus we are dealing with 2 groups: majority group that has the opinion 2 but they will change the story with opinion 1 AND the minority group ("Except for a few"). As for what is the identity of this minority group it requires more development.

Peace.
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

Mazhar

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2019, 04:21:31 PM »

سَيَقُولُونَ ثَلٟثَةٚ رَّابِعُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ

People will keep saying that they were three in number and fourth companion of them was their dog —

وَيَقُولُونَ خَـمْسَةٚ سَادِسُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ رَجْـمَاۢبِٱلْغَيْبِۖ

And others will say that they were five in number and sixth companion of them was their dog, hurling imaginary thoughts —

وَيَقُولُونَ سَبْعَةٚ وَثَامِنُـهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْۚ

And yet others will say that they were seven in number and eighth companion was their dog.

قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ

You the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the number of them; people do not know about them except a few ones [parents or government/police officials of the time when the boys initially went missing]

فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .18:22٢٢

Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point [disclosed above] and nor you should inquire about them from any one of them. [18:22]

وَلَا تَقُولَنَّ لِشَا۟ىْءٛ إِ نِّـى فَاعِلٚ ذَٟلِكَ غَدٙا .18:23٢٣

Take note,  you should not henceforth proclaim about a thing, saying: "I am certainly going to do it tomorrow." [18:23]

إِلَّآ أَن يَشَآءَ ٱللَّهُ

Except making it conditional that if Allah the Exalted so wills.

وَٱذْكُر رَّبَّكَ إِذَا نَسِيتَ وَقُلْ عَسَىٰٓ أَن يَـهْدِيَنِ رَبِّـى لِأَقْرَبَ مِنْ هَـٰذَا رَشَدٙا .18:24٢٤

And recall your Sustainer Lord when you forgot to say that, and say, "Perhaps my Sustainer Lord may guide me for a better and nearer course than this. [18:24]

Iyyaka

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2019, 11:12:55 PM »
You the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the number of them; people do not know about them except a few ones [parents or government/police officials of the time when the boys initially went missing]
=> In red : Over-interpretation. If Allah wanted to refer to the past, and express the fact that no one knows their number except Him and some contemporaries, then he would have been explicit and used the past.
BUT :
(18:22:20) yaʿlamuhum / knows them => V – 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb + PRON – 3rd person masculine plural object pronoun
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

Mazhar

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2019, 07:49:52 AM »
=> In red : Over-interpretation. If Allah wanted to refer to the past, and express the fact that no one knows their number except Him and some contemporaries, then he would have been explicit and used the past.
BUT :
(18:22:20) yaʿlamuhum / knows them => V – 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb + PRON – 3rd person masculine plural object pronoun

Thanks.

It helped me immediately detect omission in my parsing into sentences. They are two separate sentences. Second not about number.


سَيَقُولُونَ ثَلٟثَةٚ رَّابِعُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ

People will keep saying that they were three in number and fourth companion of them was their dog —

وَيَقُولُونَ خَـمْسَةٚ سَادِسُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ رَجْـمَاۢبِٱلْغَيْبِۖ

And others will say that they were five in number and sixth companion of them was their dog, hurling imaginary thoughts —

وَيَقُولُونَ سَبْعَةٚ وَثَامِنُـهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْۚ

And yet others will say that they were seven in number and eighth companion was their dog.

قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم

You the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the exact number of them".

مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ

Since except a small segment, people do not know them  —
فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .18:22٢٢

Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point [disclosed above] and nor you should enquire about them from any one of them. [18:22]

Iyyaka

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2019, 12:57:54 PM »
You're welcome. Even if we don't share the same comprehension.

I don't understand of what you said by "Second not about number." => is it about what for you ? Can you clarify ?
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

TellMeTheTruth

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2019, 01:38:07 PM »
Salam,
رجما بالغیب is interesting.

Peace

Mazhar

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2019, 02:46:26 PM »
You're welcome. Even if we don't share the same comprehension.

I don't understand of what you said by "Second not about number." => is it about what for you ? Can you clarify ?


قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم

You the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the exact number of them".

In the next sentence the information and advice is for the Messenger:

مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ

Since except a small segment, people do not know them  —
فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .18:22٢٢
Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point [disclosed above] and nor you should enquire about them from any one of them. [18:22]

This information advice does not refer about بِعِدَّتِـهِـم.


Novice

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2019, 11:32:58 AM »
Salam,
رجما بالغیب is interesting.

Peace

Yes it is interpreted as making conjectures in this verse but at other places they make it star missiles thrown on devils. Agree it is interesting.

Iyyaka

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2019, 01:46:11 PM »
Yes it is interpreted as making conjectures in this verse but at other places they make it star missiles thrown on devils. Agree it is interesting.
Salam Novice and Tellmethetruth,

I want to ADD 2 remarks :

 (1) Linguistic :

رَجْمٌ rajm :  basically and originally means to hit with stones (as Ibn Faris pointed out), not for killing BUT to drive away or exile someone or something,  It is also used for accusing or abusing, or to scold and oust => it means to leave someone or break relations with someone.

The form "rajman رَجْمًا" (once in the quran http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rjm#(18:22:9)) means "guess work" or "guessing without knowing the truth" int he context of (18:22).
More explanations in dictinnary :
- حَدِیْثٌ مُرَجَّمٌ (hadeethum- murajjam) is a thought which cannot be verified {in "Taj-ul-Uroos"}.
- رَجَّمَ الرَّجُلُ بِالْغَیْبِ (rajjamar rujul bilghaib): that man has said something about the unknown.
- قاَلہَٗ رَجْم ا (qaalahu rajma): he simply made a guess {in Lane}.

=> The common point is the notion of distance/estrangement, in this case, in context of (18:22:9), it means being away from the truth[/u].

 (2) Textual context:

Allah raises 2 problems of "counting" (Couting = "al-raqīmi" in 18:9) :
(1) The number of years
(2) The number of people in the cave

Meditation: While Allah gives the answer to the first counting, why does not he give the answer to the second couting ?

Let's connect these two issues:
(1)
   (18:25)
   And they remained in their cave (for) three hundred years, and add nine.
   (18:26)
   Say: "Allah is fully aware of how long they have remained, to Him is the unseen of the heavens and the earth ..
(2)
   (18:22)
   and they say, "seven and the eighth of them their dog."
   Say: "My Master-Teacher knows their numbers. None knows them except a few


First sign:
In (18:26) the answer is given in the PREVIOUS sentence that make the affirmation of allah's knowledge on the exact number of years.
So reasoning by analogy then in (18:22) the answer is of 7 people.

Second sign:
In (18:25) it is Allah who gives the answer because NO ONE among the familiar ones of the Scripture had the number of 300 + 9 as a good answer. (They woke up about two hundred years later according to the legend of the Seven Sleepers).
On the other hand, in (18:22,) some ("some" / "a few" as a minority) among the inhabitants of the country knew the answer. Indeed according to the Christian legend they were 7 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Sleepers). This is why Allah gives the answer by their mouths.

This comprehension is reinforced by the use of the word "Allah" in the first case while it is the word "Master-teacher/instructor" which is used in the second case.

NB : This sign also shows us that Christians (hermits ? who lives often in some holes made in the mountains) were in the immediate circle of the quraich tribe. To meditate...

Peace
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

ibn_a

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2019, 02:21:48 AM »
Salaam,


Any idea why they guessed those specific numbers 3, 5, 7 and not other numbers ?




-----

An interesting observation about the numbers cited in chapter 18 from verse 9 to 26 concerning " ASHAB ALKAHF" :

- The addition of the cardinal numbers:

3 + 5 + 7 + 300 + 9 = 324

324 = 18 x 18


- The addition of the ordinal digits:

4 + 6 + 8 = 18



source:
http://scdofg.net/wp-content/uploads/flipbook/1/book.html#p=157


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.