Author Topic: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha  (Read 10101 times)

ibn_a

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #160 on: October 27, 2019, 08:01:41 AM »

Salaam,


Peace Wakas,

Do you consider that there is nothing more to add to the discussion about "fidya"?


ibn_a

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #161 on: November 25, 2019, 01:33:47 AM »
Salaam,



Quote
...  (you will)*find me, if God willed, of the patient ones.
.....

http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Peace Wakas,



ستجدني ان شا الله من الصبرين  ...

 ... satajiduni,  in sha'a Allahu, mina alssabireena.

 ... you will find me, if God willed, of the patient ones.



- Doesn't that imply that :

Abraham will experience / observe his son's patience? ( i.e. no separation?)


His son did not say for example: I will be, if God willed, of the patient ones.



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.





Wakas

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #162 on: November 25, 2019, 06:58:18 AM »
peace ibn_a,

Quote
- Doesn't that imply that :

Abraham will experience / observe his son's patience? ( i.e. no separation?)

That's a decent point and yes it could imply that. We'd have to research all similar occurrences to be sure.

It could be argued when Abraham said goodbye and left he found his son to be patient AND he was later given news of his son as a prophet implying he was of the righteous and thus of the patient ones.

However the evidence is in favour of the following point:
Quote
3) The future particle "sa" occurs over 100 times in Quran. Can you provide one example of usage which matches how you claim it is used here, i.e. what comes after particle "sa" refers to an ongoing future activity that occurs prior to what came before particle "sa"?
Let me clarify, here is structure of the Arabic: ABC <future particle sa> XYZ
My view is XYZ occurs in the future, i.e. after ABC.Your view is XYZ occurs prior to ABC or XYZ occurs until ABC takes place.

Which means that if someone can come up with an explanation that fits better, bearing in mind the above, then I'm all ears. At the moment I don't see any better alternative.


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Houriya

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #163 on: November 26, 2019, 10:51:38 AM »
Peace,

FM translation
37:102    And when he grew enough to work with him, he said: "My son, I am seeing in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said: "O my father, do what you are commanded / if'al ma tu/maru to do. You will find me, God willing, patient."

The son of Abraham did not say to his father : Do what you saw or see in your dream or  do what you have been commanded / if'al ma omirta    as in the following verse :

39:11    Say: "I have been commanded / Ineee omirtu to serve God, devoting the system to Him."



37:103    So when they both had submitted,wa tallahu liljabeeni.

So when they both had submitted to do what abraham is commanded, not what Abraham is seing in a dream. Abraham did not say "I have been commanded  to sacrifice you".

I undestand "wa tallahu liljabeeni" as a mark of approval and total submission of Abraham and his son  to what he is commanded.

37:105    "You have carried out the vision." It was such that We rewarded the righteous.

37:110    It is thus that We reward the righteous.


Abraham is rewarded because he has carried out the vision and he did not execute the vision, he submits himself to God, and he is a good doer / righteous


4:125    And who is better in the system than the one who submits himself to God, and he is a good doer, and he follows the creed of Abraham in monotheism? And God took Abraham as a friend.

31:22    And whoever submits himself completely to God, while he is righteous, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold. And to God is the conclusion of all matters.


37:107    And We ransomed him with a great animal sacrifice.


Abraham was rewarded by a  great sacrifice instead of the sacrifice of his son in his vision. God knows the true interpretation of Abraham's vision.

God knows best.


Houriya

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #164 on: November 27, 2019, 04:18:01 AM »
In the quran, we read in the verses 2 - 196 and 5 - 2 animal sacrifice as alhady.

Houriya

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #165 on: November 28, 2019, 01:08:29 AM »
37:105    "You have carried out believed the vision." It was such that We rewarded the righteous.


Mohammed.

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #166 on: December 03, 2019, 10:18:10 AM »
Yusuf’ story is a clear example for family separation.

Years of separation between parents and beloved child -(12:84-86). This also happened by God’s (the Just/Wise/Judicious) will/permission.
Unlike Abraham’s story, here it was unexpected and Yusuf was much younger compared to Abraham’s son. And the parents meet him long after his childhood & adolescence.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

ibn_a

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #167 on: December 04, 2019, 01:01:42 AM »
Salaam,


peace ibn_a,

That's a decent point and yes it could imply that. We'd have to research all similar occurrences to be sure.

It could be argued when Abraham said goodbye and left he found his son to be patient AND he was later given news of his son as a prophet implying he was of the righteous and thus of the patient ones.

However the evidence is in favour of the following point:

Quote
3) The future particle "sa" occurs over 100 times in Quran. Can you provide one example of usage which matches how you claim it is used here, i.e. what comes after particle "sa" refers to an ongoing future activity that occurs prior to what came before particle "sa"?
Let me clarify, here is structure of the Arabic: ABC <future particle sa> XYZ
My view is XYZ occurs in the future, i.e. after ABC.Your view is XYZ occurs prior to ABC or XYZ occurs until ABC takes place.

Which means that if someone can come up with an explanation that fits better, bearing in mind the above, then I'm all ears. At the moment I don't see any better alternative.
bold:mine

Quote
Quote
...
*Arabic "sa" is a prefixed particle (i.e. coming before the verb "find me") indicating action in the future. The obvious problem for the conventional understanding is how can one be of the patient ones after having been sacrificed/killed?
....
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Peace Wakas,

If I fully understand what you mean, I don't see an issue about "Sa" / سَ

I think that when his son said: ... you will find me, if God willed, of the patient ones. / ... satajiduni, in sha'a Allahu, mina alssabireena.
has not necessarily to be after, but could refer to the moment ( if3al ma tu amru ) i.e.
when Abraham would do what he saw in his dream, and like you said in the first part of your comment:

...when Abraham said goodbye and left he found his son to be patient AND...



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Wakas

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #168 on: December 04, 2019, 06:20:19 AM »
peace ibn_a,

What I said refers to AFTER (and immediately after) he had enacted the vision, hence my use of "said" not "says". Not at the moment (i.e. in the process of doing) or was about to enact. That's the difference.

All you or anyone needs to do is bring one example from the over 100 uses of "sa" in Quran that matches with whatever you/anyone takes it to mean in this Abraham story. jkhan provided one example but issue is it depends on how you interpret that story, if it is taken as is commonly taken then it fails as an example.

What I'm asking is not difficult, but it seems getting an answer to my questions is proving difficult.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Houriya

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #169 on: December 05, 2019, 12:25:38 AM »
Peace,

Thabaha / thibh / sacrifice  as daraba / beat or cut off the hand have multiple meanings.

If we accept the meaning of sacrifice, there is no problem, abrahama confirmed his vision and obeys according to this verse:

4:125    And who is better in the system than the one who submits himself to God, and he is a good doer, and he follows the creed of Abraham in monotheism? And God took Abraham as a friend.

37:106    Surely, this was an exacting test mubeen.

What does mean mubeen according the quran ? :

37:113    And We blessed him and Isaac. And from among their progeny, some are righteous, and some are clearly (mubeen) wicked.

Abraham's vision / clearly (mubeen) test,   shows that Abraham is clearly righteous and not wicked.

37:105    "You have carried out the vision." It was such that We rewarded the righteous.

The vision is a test that clarifies / bayyana / mubeen that Abraham is righteous / he is a good doer.