Author Topic: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha  (Read 7087 times)

Wakas

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #80 on: October 11, 2019, 11:01:29 AM »
I have now updated the article to include a link at the end with some test questions. [direct link]

(and in case anyone wonders questions 11-14 are not relevant for jkhan's view, they cover other viewpoints)
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #81 on: October 11, 2019, 05:55:47 PM »
Peace..
Few additional comments for question No. 9... (for blue highlights).
Moses Mother reluctantly put Mosa in the river...  To do that she received a revelation (Wahi). This was separation of Mother and infant son.. As a mother she would have taken the baby to forehead or whatever to the points she could... Needless to say about love of mothers...
Did Allah called out "O! Mother of Musa you followed our command" and thus we reward...
In my human nature what Mosa mother did was greater being suckling mother than Ibrahim did(if Ibrahim separated his son)..
Is Allah partial to admire Ibrahim while nothing is stated for Mosa mother... What Mosa mother did was mammoth risk... Is it coz she was a woman and not a Prophet....  Allah is just... Coz Ibrahim never separated his son by those verses but brutally attempted to slaughter...Allah only favored Ibrahim and delivered of disastrous slaughter
 

jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #82 on: October 11, 2019, 11:45:25 PM »
Peace...
QUESTION NO. 08
i have responded in my previous thread 55 &57 .. Pls... Refer...
dhāl bā ḥā (ذ ب ح) in QURAN is always SLAUGHTER and it befit to 37:107 as well easily ... Unless it doesn't befit we could have resorted to any other possible meaning... It is none other but SLAUGHTER... Not even SACRIFICE befit to any dhāl bā ḥā  word in my perception .. So all slaughter... . Sacrifice is kind of conventional word it has only meaning with those who sacrifice animal to Aaliha(gods) etc etc with their INTENT (that convert a slaughter to sacrifice) .. Allah doesn't need sacrifice...  If we slaughter that benefit for us... Allah orders to slaughter...We have no sacrifice but slaughter.... Had I used sacrifice only for the sake of argument....

jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #83 on: October 12, 2019, 08:48:03 PM »
QUESTION NO.  07

Sahih translation.... 37:102 " ...... .....He said, "O my father, DO (af'al) as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the STEADFAST."
37:103 " And when they had both submitted and HE put HIM down upon HIS forehead,"
37:104 " We called to HIM, "O Abraham,"

Note here the DOER is  Ibrahim... His son requested Ibrahim to DO... Son will be at the receiving end.. otherwise son would have said "I would DO it as you commanded" if in fact son to leave ... Son cannot say father "do what you are commanded" while son is the one who has to execute what his father saw..
When son is not the DOER, son accepted to be patient/ STEADFAST letting the DOER to carry out his task without obstacles... If separation, then son needless to say patience coz without having patience you cant carry out long journey and loads of task (if Ibrahim intended his son to preach god's law- which dream never state)... 
Note below.. dream itself is not complete for Ibrahim to carry out either slaughter or separation ...
37:102 " ..... O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I [must] sacrifice you...." sahih ..

Separate for WHOM / Slaughter for WHOM?
**Separate and send where? For what? 
** slaughter and do what?  Bury the body? Or eat the flesh?
Dream never said a word that it is "FOR ALLAH" ... clear confusion of Ibrahim..(note, Moses's mother instructed with complete picture, promising to return him and make him messenger) . Was his son a messenger to do that? Who will accept him if he was sent to a place other than his language ? If going to place spoken same language then not far.. Then why all drama? If he was already a grown man and a messenger then no need Ibrahim's dream.... His son clearly underaged...

Now.. We know,  the DOER is Ibrahim and he is the older and father... If you take "as took to his forehead to say farewell" then most suited in both of them is Ibrahim... Coz that's reasonable and most of all Doer... Acting person is Ibrahim...
Even to slaughter, Ibrahim is the doer and he would have put his son on slautering position.... (whatever "li" applies)
Now doer is Ibrahim Remember.   
Then suddenly in that posture God calls out...How?.. That's key..
""" We called out to HIM..".. Who is this him and why Him and then quote O! Ibrahim ? Coz Doer...
If separation son is the Doer... But God calls out the right person Doer who is Ibrahim before slaughter ...
If separation who in fact carried out the task? In fact son.. Coz Ibrahim just saw the dream.... But burden was on his son....
But if slaughter who carried out completely as he seen in dream?  Ibrahim.. Only son was patient and surrendered enabling father to accomplish his dream ..
Then comes the next verse.. It was MANIFEST TRIAL...
If separation for the cause of Allah, how can that be a trial manifest? They both doing a great job... Not a trial manifest (mubeen) ..

Trial coz, Ibrahim took the wrong path....trial always when we are wrong if it was self conduct.. .... And trial only to Ibrahim coz his son was innocent and followed a Messenger's request by obeying him..
Ibrahim was REWARDED not coz he attempted to slaughter,  coz of he was used to be a muhsinun (good doer).. Just coz Ibrahim got one thing wrong that also hoping that it was from God, how come God punish.... His reward was delivering his beloved son... Wasn't it a reward for a father? What could have been had he slaughtered ? To date all would be cursing him... Coz son was pure not a tyrant or destined disbeliever...
Mosa teacher we don't curse coz God speak the truth about boy...further God said it was INTENDED 18:81.. so the teacher did what God intended....
 

jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #84 on: October 13, 2019, 08:22:09 PM »
QUESTION  NO. 06

Peace…
below blue highlighted waqas's comment and question....
can you provide another example in Quran wherein it states someone did X (e.g. perfect verb) but what is meant is they intended to do X.
Reason: you take "...when they both had submitted..." in 37:103 as submitted in INTENTION only (i.e. not actually done the slaughter). Similar case with "...Surely you have believed/confirmed..." in 37:105, i.e. technically they HAVEN'T CONFIRMED it yet, i.e. it is intention only.


You have utterly messed up what INTENTION is :&.. haven’t you?

For example … I saw while driving a matured person keeping his head on the rail track for suicide while train is getting closer… when the train approached so near someone suddenly pulled him out  with his legs and saved his life which he never wanted…His intention was to die and if not for that brave young man he would have died on the spot… it doesn’t mean suicide person didn’t carry out his intention …Intention was carried out to its maximum but not the outcome…

So, Ibrahim saw the dream and took it as command… not actually a kind of his own intention but based on dream hoping it is from Allah as a command.. So he was about to carry out the INTENTION of God in his view..
Yes.. 37:103 they both surrendered purely … (so it is perfect verb) they in fact did the (Aslama) surrendering part...
Then.. Ibrahim about to slaughter and no one would stop Ibrahim.. He carried out his dream…Didn’t he?
Now, who did in fact stop it from doing it? God… what He said? O! Ibrahim you believed the dream… Dear Waqas.. Believing part didn’t take place AFTER the SURRENDER but before Surrendering.. that’s why they surrendered and about to slaughter…
But, God comes in to picture later… When God  said O! Ibrahim… suddenly Ibrahim would have stopped … then God says.. You believed the Dream… Did Ibrahim believe at that time while God said? No… no way..No chance..

Technically they have CONFIRMED everything in advance… Only God stopped it as a mercy and rewarded.. 

jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #85 on: October 13, 2019, 09:47:43 PM »
Peace ……..

QUESTION NO. 05

Waqa's question and comments below in blue..
can you provide some examples elsewhere in Quran in which God rewards us/someone for what they were about to do but did not do.
Reason: stating "like thus We reward..." implies an exemplar, if so, where are the other examples, or where such a principle is mentioned.


Are you sure, is that you who asked this question…I wonder what made you to pose such a weak query….Not expected from your standard as I know of you through your articles…

REWARDS are not for the particular act stated here (whether done or not done)…. Don’t you get that… “LIKE THUS WE REWARD THE GOOD DOERS” is in the same chapter few times… Just explain for what reason they were rewarded based on the story presented in quran? For example Moses, Nuh, etc etc…. No. No.. don’t complicate... REWARD is for sheer performance good things in the life and God knew they were Muhsinun and for that precise reason they were thus rewarded coz they were in total dilemma… Wasn’t Ibrahim a Good doer (Muhsinun) … He was always…. So delivered from nasty act he completely got wrong…

Examples you ask for “like thus We reward the Doer of Good”  … okay note below.. 37:80 (Nuh) … 37:121 (Mosa, Harun) …. 37:131 (Ilyaseen)

What they in general did or what they about to do but didn’t do to deserve by a statement by GOD saying soon after “like thus We reward the Doer of Good” ? Nothing …right? But they deserve in God’s vision  coz they were pure human…

jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #86 on: October 13, 2019, 11:47:56 PM »
Peace…

QUESTION NO. 04

below are Waqas's question and comments in blue..
can you provide a classical Arabic dictionary reference which states the meaning of the verb TLL can mean what you take it to mean and can be done in a gentle/soft/willing manner? i.e. without force.
Reason: the primary meaning of this definition is to throw down / make one prostrate / hold down / wrestle them down etc , i.e. not willingly, but Quran states both submitted so the action was willingly, i.e. no force needed).


I am extremely sorry question No. 04 asking Dictionary reference… I don’t use dictionary, so I am unable to give you..(I beg you pardon).. I know, whoever translated would have used dictionaries in their support to give certain meaning…that’s enough for me plus pure quran..But I am not blind to accept as it is translated without verification with quranic flow and sheer meaning… it has worked out for me and continuing to do so…...
This word ( tā lām lām (ل ل ت) occurs once.. okay..but it has been translated referring dictionaries as put him down…or even take as throw down / make one prostrate / hold down / wrestle down…. Never mind.. just coz it occurs once in quran, I won’t panic….
Just look what is written in quran other than the particular word T L L… what is attached with TLL to give meaning.. what is the act to happen.. that’s important…..
Note they surrendered willingly … fine..… Surrendered for what? For slaughtering not for wandering…Once surrendered to slaughter it has to be done in its own/unique manner…no kindness can creep in while you are about to slaughter anything (coz life like us)… then you won’t be able to do… Honestly I cannot slaughter even a tiny animal… Why God says… when they are to whisk/lash the culprits not to have pity….with such atmosphere job cannot be done…
We know Ibrahim is kind (incredibly) and most of all that was his son… But,… somehow he controlled his mind to do the slaughtering … If he can come up to the slaughtering point, why can’t he throw his son down to further proceed? Is throwing down is mighty or slaughtering? How he would carry on slaughtering if he can’t even first throw him down…. Ibrahim adjusted clearly his mind…
Further… why he threw him down… probably his son’s face was covered (usual way of human slaughter) and he was unable to see where to keep his head on his own…Or though his was patient and surrendered still afraid to face… Slaughtering will take place in slaughtering manner… with kindness cannot execute..it doesn’t mean they don’t have kindness.. I never said gentle / soft willing manner as you claim ….

Wakas

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #87 on: October 14, 2019, 05:17:51 AM »
peace jkhan,

Can you clarify if you replied to the correct question in your "Question 7" comment above?

Quote
7)  preposition "li" occurs over 2000 times in Quran. Please provide clear examples of it meaning "upon" as you take it to mean in 37:103 (i.e. upon his forehead).

It is better to quote the question then reply, as you started to do recently, so it is clearer and easier to follow.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #88 on: October 14, 2019, 05:39:29 PM »
peace jkhan,

Can you clarify if you replied to the correct question in your "Question 7" comment above?

It is better to quote the question then reply, as you started to do recently, so it is clearer and easier to follow.

Cope with my answers... I don't have answers beyond that for the question..
Let others decide at their own will what could've been story... I will come up with answers to your other questions within this weekend...

jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #89 on: October 14, 2019, 09:26:12 PM »
QUESTION NO. 02

I added the question on top is to coz people won’t have that much of time to go back to each page to see what actually the questions are… unless they are so curious of those..

below Waqas's question and comments..

when Abraham asks "...look what you see?" his son seems to automatically assume it is a command when he says "...do what you are commanded...". Do you agree? If not, please say why.

Look brother… Keep in mind the truth…the truth is Ibrahim never said it was a COMMAND or rather “I have been COMMANDED by GOD to Slaughter you”…… and DREAM never stated it was a COMMAND… only person who used the word COMMAND was Ibrahim’s son….Why did he use it meticulously? .. He knew as a believer we are to follow commands of God being the slaves of God.. if we deny, then we are to blame ourselves..Ibrahim was a messenger but not his son to that point… So, his son needs to obey what Messenger says as a believer … coz “obeying the Messenger is obeying the God”..
But his son used a very important word(COMMAND) which ibrahim couldn’t grasp by the dream and never verified how he previously got commands (look what you see itself a confused statement like having a suggestion to God’s command) or what is the normal medium of getting commands from God.. By saying DO what you are COMMANDED is clearly an indication only the COMMAND his son was surrendering not the DREAM or IBRAHIM as person on the matters of God..…Who will command a Messenger? God.. so his son didn’t use the word to the phrase Do what you are commanded BY GOD.. Messenger should verify before presenting to the public and messenger cannot lie and should not… Suppose… Prophet receives a message.. He should verify what actually the message is and how to present it and how it came to him..(simply thoroughly understand the message and present).. Needless for son to verify coz he was a messenger ordering him (if his son pose question after question, then he is transgressing same as people of musa on the order of God before slaughter a cow)… like the true people as quran points out.. “We hear we obey”… but we don’t have to do the part of “we hear we obey” coz we don’t hear it from the Messenger, God assigned to take it AS IT IS…We are bound to verify everything, even the quran and it’s verses… Coz we have no clue unless we verify…No living Messenger who take speech of God directly and present..

That’s why his son naturally assumed it was a COMMAND… but Ibrahim didn’t verify and failed … A Messenger failing is whole community failing…That failure had to bear by his innocent son who trusted the Messenger… But, God delivered him… it would have been a very good profound advice and trial for Ibrahim in his life time not to take dreams as literal and command of God since God never authorized.... God talks in three mediums only to any human being 42:51 (unless God talk, how a command can be released to human? If not in those three mediums, then how God talk? Do you say about God what you do not know, while God emphasizes that he talks only in three ways..  Whatever the other mediums are not speech / talk of God..but signs…..Signs are not command…)