Author Topic: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha  (Read 1795 times)

Wakas

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2019, 01:57:35 AM »
peace Iyyaka,


But the question that comes to me: By the play of symmetry between the two narrative blocks, where is the altar of sacrifice? (the second element of "sacrifice")


Your claim of symmetry, two narrative blocks, and there being two sacrifices in each block is built entirely upon your subjective interpretation. For example you said: "1. "Sacrifice" of Abraham to his people and his father after denying idols by arguing with them => A definitive separation"

In what way is this a sacrifice?

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When it comes to interpreting Quran, I find that sticking with what is solid (and objective as possible) first, then building on that solid foundation is the best approach, not the other way around, i.e. using subjective/unverifiable methods to build one's understanding on.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Wakas

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2019, 03:58:06 AM »
peace Iyyaka,

Sorry, I only just now read your earlier post below.

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Even if you did not react or take into account my Quranic arguments about the translation of verse 37:103...

I read your analysis just now and I consider it weaker, in comparison to my own. My understanding is relatively straightforward and the most cogent from a Quranic perspective, in my view.

And the reward is that God made sure that his remembrance and his work are saved for posterity (again in coherence with the other prophets cited in this surah).

This can also fit with my understanding.

Quote
Thus, if it is the case as I think, I lack an element to be convinced by your understanding of the verb "Talla":
How do you translate and understand (2:127) ?
          Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
          2:127 And when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the Bayt, "O our Sustainer! Accept Thou this from us: for, verily, Thou alone art all-hearing, all-knowing!"

Sorry in advance if you have already answered this question elsewhere in this forum.
Knowing that if we trust the Bible on this particular subject Abraham was building altars dedicated to God in different places.

I can only assume you consider 2:127 relevant is because you think the "sacrificial son" was Ishmael. Quran is not explicit on whom it was but my research indicates it was Isaac. The context of the verses only mention Isaac. Most Biblical scholars considered it to be Isaac, and most early Traditional Muslim scholars also considered it to be Isaac. Muslim scholars changed their mind later (at some point in time). There are various theories/reasons as to why they changed their mind but my preliminary research suggests it was to give eminence to Makkah and to link the Traditional Hajj rtuals with Abraham.

In any case you can read my translation and analysis of that verse here:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Iyyaka

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2019, 06:06:50 AM »
peace Iyyaka,

Your claim of symmetry, two narrative blocks, and there being two sacrifices in each block is built entirely upon your subjective interpretation. For example you said: "1. "Sacrifice" of Abraham to his people and his father after denying idols by arguing with them => A definitive separation"

In what way is this a sacrifice?

#####

When it comes to interpreting Quran, I find that sticking with what is solid (and objective as possible) first, then building on that solid foundation is the best approach, not the other way around, i.e. using subjective/unverifiable methods to build one's understanding on.
Sorry but my proofs are only quranic - the signs from allah are there. No subjective interpretation : just literal context proofs.
As i said i don't believe, under quranic control, at a "PHYSICAL sacrifice", even in dream, between Abraham and Ismael. You can sacrifice your life to spread the message of Allah..as all the messenger.
If the word "sacrifice" disturb you you can use "to devoted yourself to a cause..".

We must separate 2 thinks :

1) First the "sacrifice" of Abraham and Ismael for Allah and specially to call people to visit "the first bouse of gathering" and purify it (not the Kaaba but a place well define) where Ismal stayed live at this place for the rest of his life.

2) Abraham built with the help of Ismael an altar (Kaaba) as a symbol (the arabic word "shaʿār" - visible) of offering animals for defined days every year to thank Allah for his blessings and to feed the poor.
=> 5:95 :
"...and to make it as a donation to reach/as-an-offering-to the Ka'aba..." => So clear, no subjective idea.
And the root word of Ka'aba can refer to the ankle (high and full and useful/beneficial) or the firm and rounded boobs of young woman. (This 2 examples are also in the Quran not in my imagination).

if you do not believe that allah gives you signs by the structuring of his speech and the links that he makes even through different suras then it is your right, BUT from there to declare that it is a SUBJECTIVE method I think that it is a counterproductive manner and a no-Quranic argument ("Does they meditate ?"), which does not profit in advancing the truth.

NB : just a precision => The quranic Word "Ka'aba" does not fit with what traditional Muslims call Ka'aba at modern Mecca

Peace
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)