Author Topic: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha  (Read 13338 times)

Wakas

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2019, 01:57:35 AM »
peace Iyyaka,


But the question that comes to me: By the play of symmetry between the two narrative blocks, where is the altar of sacrifice? (the second element of "sacrifice")


Your claim of symmetry, two narrative blocks, and there being two sacrifices in each block is built entirely upon your subjective interpretation. For example you said: "1. "Sacrifice" of Abraham to his people and his father after denying idols by arguing with them => A definitive separation"

In what way is this a sacrifice?

#####

When it comes to interpreting Quran, I find that sticking with what is solid (and objective as possible) first, then building on that solid foundation is the best approach, not the other way around, i.e. using subjective/unverifiable methods to build one's understanding on.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Wakas

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2019, 03:58:06 AM »
peace Iyyaka,

Sorry, I only just now read your earlier post below.

Quote
Even if you did not react or take into account my Quranic arguments about the translation of verse 37:103...

I read your analysis just now and I consider it weaker, in comparison to my own. My understanding is relatively straightforward and the most cogent from a Quranic perspective, in my view.

And the reward is that God made sure that his remembrance and his work are saved for posterity (again in coherence with the other prophets cited in this surah).

This can also fit with my understanding.

Quote
Thus, if it is the case as I think, I lack an element to be convinced by your understanding of the verb "Talla":
How do you translate and understand (2:127) ?
          Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
          2:127 And when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the Bayt, "O our Sustainer! Accept Thou this from us: for, verily, Thou alone art all-hearing, all-knowing!"

Sorry in advance if you have already answered this question elsewhere in this forum.
Knowing that if we trust the Bible on this particular subject Abraham was building altars dedicated to God in different places.

I can only assume you consider 2:127 relevant is because you think the "sacrificial son" was Ishmael. Quran is not explicit on whom it was but my research indicates it was Isaac. The context of the verses only mention Isaac. Most Biblical scholars considered it to be Isaac, and most early Traditional Muslim scholars also considered it to be Isaac. Muslim scholars changed their mind later (at some point in time). There are various theories/reasons as to why they changed their mind but my preliminary research suggests it was to give eminence to Makkah and to link the Traditional Hajj rtuals with Abraham.

In any case you can read my translation and analysis of that verse here:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Iyyaka

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2019, 06:06:50 AM »
peace Iyyaka,

Your claim of symmetry, two narrative blocks, and there being two sacrifices in each block is built entirely upon your subjective interpretation. For example you said: "1. "Sacrifice" of Abraham to his people and his father after denying idols by arguing with them => A definitive separation"

In what way is this a sacrifice?

#####

When it comes to interpreting Quran, I find that sticking with what is solid (and objective as possible) first, then building on that solid foundation is the best approach, not the other way around, i.e. using subjective/unverifiable methods to build one's understanding on.
Sorry but my proofs are only quranic - the signs from allah are there. No subjective interpretation : just literal context proofs.
As i said i don't believe, under quranic control, at a "PHYSICAL sacrifice", even in dream, between Abraham and Ismael. You can sacrifice your life to spread the message of Allah..as all the messenger.
If the word "sacrifice" disturb you you can use "to devoted yourself to a cause..".

We must separate 2 thinks :

1) First the "sacrifice" of Abraham and Ismael for Allah and specially to call people to visit "the first bouse of gathering" and purify it (not the Kaaba but a place well define) where Ismal stayed live at this place for the rest of his life.

2) Abraham built with the help of Ismael an altar (Kaaba) as a symbol (the arabic word "shaʿār" - visible) of offering animals for defined days every year to thank Allah for his blessings and to feed the poor.
=> 5:95 :
"...and to make it as a donation to reach/as-an-offering-to the Ka'aba..." => So clear, no subjective idea.
And the root word of Ka'aba can refer to the ankle (high and full and useful/beneficial) or the firm and rounded boobs of young woman. (This 2 examples are also in the Quran not in my imagination).

if you do not believe that allah gives you signs by the structuring of his speech and the links that he makes even through different suras then it is your right, BUT from there to declare that it is a SUBJECTIVE method I think that it is a counterproductive manner and a no-Quranic argument ("Does they meditate ?"), which does not profit in advancing the truth.

NB : just a precision => The quranic Word "Ka'aba" does not fit with what traditional Muslims call Ka'aba at modern Mecca

Peace

TellMeTheTruth

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2019, 12:07:40 PM »
Salam!
I agree that Ibrahim was to leave his sons. There is no sacrifice of animal or human. ذبح عظیم means great separation/splitting.
May be it is talking about the death of Ibrahim AS. Not sure.
Peace!

jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2019, 11:56:31 PM »
Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?
New article - click HERE

Feedback welcome, especially corrections. Thanks.

Peace Wakas...

For me your article seems very interesting... but i will go through again when i have time...

For everyone : if you say that dream is not from God, then i cannot agree to it... whatever the dreams mentioned in quran (many right) all seems from God... Story may end sad but from God... But i don't personally whatever the dreams people used to see in their life is from God or not..expect an answer to it..
For example two prisoners saw dreams and they were explained by dream specialist Yousuf and what they saw in the turned out to be as true predictions.. There could be meaningful dreams which really gives concerns to people... we used to see dreams and not even remember what they are, but very few dreams it touches our heart and hovers around to see what it could be...

Finally as per quran non of the dreams stated in it is not from satan or any other forces.. but from God... But all dreams will have meaning or not.. no clue.. Ibrahim was not a dream specialist.. we don't see it in quran directly applying it to him.. And all messages won't come through dreams.. If allah want to talk to a human to pass a message there is three way according to verse 42:51...

So dreams are kind of indirect hint that God may send us, but not always... it is not our duty to believe in them unless there is an authority given... example Yousuf.. people could have asked from him since God has taught him and it is an authority.. But Abraham never had such capacity which we are not told through quran...

In fact if Abraham saw was something that has to performed, Abraham could have waited till a messenger comes to him and reveal - (if you take the story as sacrifice)

But i think what waqas telling is a different story and ..... that is something to ponder... coz Abraham took the dream from God and implemented it without any direct message being delivered...After all he was a messenger and any orders of such extent would have directly come to him through a messenger... But ibrahm believed the dream ...





jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2019, 03:25:26 AM »
"My Lord, grant me from the righteous." ~~~ He was righteous..wasn’t he?
So We gave him good news of a compassionate child. ~~~ God gave good news… does God need to give him a bad news when he grows up?
So when he reached the age of striving/working (with him), he said: "Indeed I have seen in sleep/dream that I am sacrificing you, so look what you see?" He said: "O my father, do what you are commanded (you will)*find me, if God willed, of the patient ones." ~~~ what Ibrahim saw was a dream and not a command.. Will ever Allah command anything to any messenger through Dream.. Allah may show dreams and dreams may come true.. but will Allah ever order to do what a person saw in dream (which is practically unconscious)… Ismail is righteous child and compassionate.. he would obey his father for sure and of course more than that Ibrahim was a messenger and need to obey..But Ismail was a not a grown man (refer musa grown man verse)… so Ismail said, “Do what you are COMMANDED” Is it really a command from God for Ibrahim to practice? No.. Unless any such command was given to Ibrahim through dream previously. 42:51 denies anyhow.. “Ismail further said (You will) find me if God will of the patient”… Yes Dear Waqas He cant be patient after he was killed.. But Till Ibrahim implement what he has seen in the dream, Ismail can be utterly patient till he face it.. not to escape or deny.. That is real patience.. while being with his father and knowing he is gonna kill him….And He was in fact patient..
The dream (Mana) of Mohamed was not a command.. it was just an encouragement and even doubtful Mohamed knew that it was from Allah until the verse was revealed saying it..and in the end what Mohamed saw was not real coz reality was different but encouraged..

So when they both submitted and he (Abraham) brought** him (son) to*** his (Abraham's) forehead (or side of head). ~~~  So they both (Aslama – Surrendered not submited) to execute the task… How do you decide that He brought Ismail to Abrahm’s forehead? Does Arabic verse give you a clear cut meaning to accept that Abraham’s head.. why can’t it be Ismail’s head…
And We called him: "O Abraham," ~~~ Most significant part.. pls answer Mr. Waqas.. Why God through a Messenger (coz WE is used) should call “O Ibrahim” when actually Ibrahim took Ismail to his forehead… God could have called Ibrahim once Ismail actually leaving him if you take the meaning in that way.. God called Ibrahim at the right time to avoid and save from a great disaster .. That suits as most of the quran believers accept… What is the point of isolating a not fully grown man from him if it was the real meaning of it?

"Surely you have believed/confirmed the vision." Indeed like thus We reward the righteous/good-doers. ~~~ What was said to Ibrahim by calling him … said “you believed the vision”.. If it was a command from God, why the command was cancelled by calling at Ibrahim? What was the reward after cancelling  a command? I consider it cancelled with the flow of verses coz he was ransomed of a disastrous sacrifice…The dream doesn’t state that should be left alone on his journey. Ibrahim doesn’t need to send him alone.. He could have properly took him to the place where he should be left. 14:37 doesn’t say just leaving anyone … it is stated “ I have SETTLED some of my Progeny ..” huge difference to above..

Remember God calling 37:104 O’ Ibrahim.. while Ibrahim calling 14:37“O our Lord, I have settled” totally contrary… These are two incidents..

Surely this (was) a clear trial. ~~~~ of course it was a trial and a great one which Ibrahim trapped but God saved both and it was a reward and great favor and specially for Righteous like Ibrahim when he was in dilemma …We all are put to test but not always you will find God save from our evil act without knowledge..Ibrahim was favored..

And We ransomed/exchanged him with/for a mighty/great sacrifice. ~~~ what God ransomed was in fact great and it could have been a DISASTROUS sacrifice… not at all a great (highly valued) sacrifice… but ismail was saved and ransomed of a disastrous/great(great in the bad aspect) sacrifice…Why take Azeem as good side of GREAT why not bad side of great..

Further Ismail was not isolated as we can see  Abrahim and ismail together raised foundation of the house (whatever it is)…Abrahim established the house and were entrusted to keep it clean and tidy.. and Ibrahim SETTLED remember some of his Progeny.. big difference it makes to your view when we compare the word settled? It was not like Ibrahim isolated his son in a sad and horrible way to consider it a great matter..that’s barbaric act…Even the dream was not such to leave him in a barbaric manner. So how he could take him to his forehead and say bye bye…that’s bizarre..


Anyhow it is interesting your research... but not convincing and i would remain with the conventional understanding...but definitely not sacrificing animal remembering Abrahim and ismalil and resorting to Makka... all nonsense..

Wakas

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2019, 09:12:45 AM »
peace jkhan,

Re:
Quote
what Ibrahim saw was a dream and not a command.. Will ever Allah command anything to any messenger through Dream.....
....so Ismail said, “Do what you are COMMANDED” Is it really a command from God for Ibrahim to practice? No.. Unless any such command was given to Ibrahim through dream previously. 42:51 denies anyhow.. ...

1) we have very few examples of dreams of messengers in Quran thus unable to claim with certainty God never commands through dream.
2) there does not need to be a prior command via dream for this to be accepted as one.
3) his son clearly interpreted it as a command (or something Abraham is expected to do) and so did Abraham, thus I would rather take their view on it than claim they made a mistake and we know better.
4) 42:51 doesn't exclude anything. It would only exclude it if it was explicitly stated dreams do not fall within these categories.

Re:
Quote
How do you decide that He brought Ismail to Abrahm’s forehead? Does Arabic verse give you a clear cut meaning to accept that Abraham’s head.. why can’t it be Ismail’s head…

Both before and after this part, the one spoken of is Abraham. To suggest otherwise will be inserting a break in addressee without any reason.

Re:
Quote
Why God through a Messenger (coz WE is used) should call “O Ibrahim” when actually Ibrahim took Ismail to his forehead… God could have called Ibrahim once Ismail actually leaving him if you take the meaning in that way.. God called Ibrahim at the right time to avoid and save from a great disaster

It doesn't say when he was called but I have no issue if it was during or immediately after this goodbye embrace. If we take your view, one could argue why not call to him as Abraham raised the knife/sword etc (i.e. last minute). The fact that you consider it your "most significant part" indicates your objections to my position is weak.

I considered your other points poor/irrelevant, hence no reply. If you think they are, perhaps you can articulate them better, keeping it concise.

Also, you consistently kept referring to the "sacrifice son" as Ishmael. There is no Quranic evidence of this.




All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

jkhan

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2019, 11:45:59 PM »
Dear Brother Waqas,
Thank you for taking your valuable time to respond my concerns..
Btw your article is interesting but honestly not convincing coz it doesn’t convince me, I have no idea about others..but many of your articles have convinced me and I verified it with quran..

1)   we have very few examples of dreams of messengers in Quran thus unable to claim with certainty God never commands through dream. ~~~..yeah.. that’s the truth.. then why you claim so that it was a command? God says wait till my command comes… messengers have waited though the followers were in a hurry..how do you judge on what God has not taught you ? Has God taught you to take the dream/s as command or is it in quran? That will put any one in great confusion … confusion is not command, but commands are clear .. only three ways 42:51

2) there does not need to be a prior command via dream for this to be accepted as one. ~~~ who gave you this authority? I am serious.. how you conclude it? Give Quranic proof to go in line as you always write in articles..
3) his son clearly interpreted it as a command (or something Abraham is expected to do) and so did Abraham, thus I would rather take their view on it than claim they made a mistake and we know better.~~~ His son didn’t know anything.. do you agree.. Everything was Abraham’s mere decision.. That’s’ why His son said “Do what you are commanded…” No command to his son or no information and totally nothing…And no evidence of proof sending a Messenger .. no confirmation.. merely Abraham’s dream for which Abraham was asking sort of PERMISION from his son.. wasn’t he? “so look what you see” this is what Abraham said.. so needs his son’s permission.. in case His son refused then Allah’s command is nullified.. How can a messenger nullify a command from God just coz his son doesn’t agree?
See the end… God only said to Abrahm “ You believed the dream” no reward nothing to his son… who is more sacrificing person here Abraham or His son.. be it isolating him or sacrificing… His son is key and not Abrahim.. without his son acknowledgement nothing would happen out there..


4) 42:51 doesn't exclude anything. It would only exclude it if it was explicitly stated dreams do not fall within these categories. ~~~ Yes.. that’s what I emphasize… no believer can take anything as command unless God has spoken to someone in any of the medium which 42:51 refers..no need any explicit explanation from God while He crystal clearly said in 42:51.. So.. God won’t talk to any human being including Ibrahim other than those three medium… Dreams are not God’s command and any orders that we have to take into our life… you can only go for interpretation of dreams with someone who is authorized..


Further what you mean other irrelevant points?... may be you referring the word Azeem..

You have no clue in your article about “He was ransomed / exchanged with / of mighty / great sacrifice…no connection to your story by this verse..

Dear it is of course physical sacrifice God referred… No other meaning you can get it.. dhāl bā ḥā (ذ ب ح) (entire quran either slaughter / sacrifice) so stick with it.. don't deviate.. Just look at the verse 56:46 where Azeem appears.. does that mean Mighty / Great Sin in a positive sense… no way.. that is something of unpleasant, evil oriented Azeem…Same way God absolutely delivered Abraham’s Son form a Azeem (Great) grievous Sacrifice.. That’s perfect.. claiming separation is fine from your end, but you can’t end with the verse 37:107 – He was ransomed of a Horrible Sacrifice.. read the verse 56:46 or similar to get a clear picture what the Azeem + sacrifice may mean…

Finally you stated that I was kept using Ismail..yeah sorry.. but your article started saying about Eid Al Adha and conventional and majority of muslims practices… so what they practice is connected with Abraham and Ismail..You can’t be referring any other while you are talking about them…. Anyhow lets stick with quran… hope any of the son of Abrahm..

Folks.. anyway.. it is not a big deal like the creation of heavens and earth and distorting them... Ibrahim knows what actually he did so did his son.. it won't harm our belief... so let people raise opinions... but i love sticking with quran's immaculate meaning.. coz it is only one meaning intended by God.. Not me and Waqas be right... only one God intended meaning ... lets approach for it...
 :handshake:

Sorry... in addition to that the complete chapter 37 is talking about delivering messengers and people from Great disasters... and ibrahim ans ismail is no exception... pls members who have not read the chapter fully, read when you have time...

Wakas

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2019, 04:36:28 AM »
peace jkhan,

Re: 2)
It's simple. If we take your position, then every single event in Quran that occurs once cannot be accepted (because it doesn't have a prior example), e.g. God speaking with Moses, angels submitting to adam etc etc etc etc the list is endless. If you think this line of reasoning has merit, each to their own.

Re 4)
I dont think you understand 42:51. All you need to ask yourself is are dreams explicitly excluded in 42:51. Answer is obviously no. It could easily fall under wahy or from behind a barrier.
You say "you can only go for interpretation of dreams with someone who is authorized.." Exactly, see 12:6. Messengers/prophets are in unique situation, having unique access to the divine. I guess for you its just another coincidence that Abraham/Isaac are mentioned in 12:6 in the context of Joseph's dream and the ability to interpret narratives.

You said "You have no clue in your article about “He was ransomed / exchanged with / of mighty / great sacrifice…no connection to your story by this verse.."
I recommend re-reading the article, quote: "In the Abraham leaving scenario the "great/mighty sacrifice" would refer to the great sacrifice Abraham made by leaving his beloved son, making it a self-contained explanation."

It's interesting how you say "no clue" when your interpretation involves a madeup ram/goat inserted into the context and no-one knows why it's mighty/great/azeem. Even by your own argument this ram would have to be "evil-oriented" / "unpleasant" in some way. Whoops. I leave these problems in your view for you to resolve.


At the end of the day, for me it's real simple: I look at the options and determine which one is the most sound / least problematic, then go with that option. Each to their own.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Wakas

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Re: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2019, 04:44:11 AM »
And We ransomed/exchanged him (son or Abraham?) with/for a mighty/great sacrifice. [37:107]



I forgot to say, upon re-examining 37:107 it seems the pronoun "hu" could refer to either Abraham or his son. It's traditionally taken to refer to his son, but the flow/context suggests Abraham.

Either way it works for my view, however for the ram sacrifice exchange story, it only works if it refers to his son.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org