Author Topic: Yield or prostrate to Adam?  (Read 3315 times)

rahi

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Yield or prostrate to Adam?
« on: July 17, 2019, 11:08:19 AM »
Salaam everyone,

I'm having trouble understanding the ayat relating to, well, the creation of Adam and the subsequent Iblis situation. I unfortunately don't know Arabic and I rely on translations of the Qur'an.

In several of the English translations I've come across, God apparently told the heavenly assembly of his intention to create Adam, and perhaps humans. The story then goes that after Adam was created, God asked the heavenly assembly (angels? jinn?) to prostrate to Adam.

Iblis did not. And then Iblis goes on to some odd kind of claim, wherein Iblis says that he/she/it will try and mislead us to the best of his/her/its ability, almost to prove to God that this Adam type creation isn't worth prostrating to.

Indeed, God says in many parts of the Qur'an that most of us will not believe.

So that's the context I'm trying to learn a bit more about.

My question: Some translations say "prostrate", and others say "yield".

To me, those words mean pretty much completely different things. Would anyone here be able to shed more light on the "yield" translation?

Prostrating is relatively visual. It's like bowing down physically, perhaps all the way to where our feet normally are. Yielding on the other hand is more abstract. One meaning of "to yield" is to make room for, among so many other meanings of the word.

Thank you in advance.

quincy

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Re: Yield or prostrate to Adam?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2019, 11:15:23 AM »
Peace!

I think its a mixture of both like showing respect to the appointed proconsul of the earth directly by the almighty God. You also forgot to mention that he gave Adam of His ruh - so technically speaking he is/was a part of Him. This is the greater reason for that commandment. Iblis couldn't deal with it mainly because it was very paradox. Logic cant handle paradoxes. The other reason was arrogancy. Thats why Iblis complains that God had tricked him. The almighty God himself is above rationality/irrationality/intellect/intuition. All that we know since the Fall... after THE MOST HIGH we were greater then Angels in Intelligence - pure and above Good and Evil.

15:39    He (Iblis) said: "My Lord, for that by which You have caused me to be misled, I will beautify for them what is on the earth, and I will mislead them all."
15:40    "Except Your servants from among them, the loyal ones."
THINK FOR YOURSELF

huruf

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Re: Yield or prostrate to Adam?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2019, 12:28:21 PM »
Postrating is a physical act that represents a mental or will act. It may be figurative language.
Like when God says that he elvates a prophet, it does not mean that he puts him in an elevator but that he gives him more spiritual level.

So postrating means acknowledging your subservience to whoever you postrate to.


Salaam

imrankhawaja

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Re: Yield or prostrate to Adam?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2019, 04:38:10 PM »


Iblis did not. And then Iblis goes on to some odd kind of claim, wherein Iblis says that he/she/it will try and mislead us to the best of his/her/its ability, almost to prove to God that this Adam type creation isn't worth prostrating to.



This story seek multiple questions but very few satisfactory answers given by the experts so far.

Every book have their own merits of checking story. Its a good start to ponder over these things before we come to the stage of believing or disbelieving in something.

HISTORY

We offered our trust to multiple creation out of which humanbeing selected it becoz human being is ignorant and stupid.

EVENT of dispute


I(ibless) m not prostrating human becoz hes is ignorant and stupid and i better than him.soon i (ibless) will prove that.

EPISODE
after he have challanged how stupid human being is.

Also he successful in making him stupid and due to him adam/s and mate/s expelled from the status. He proved them stupid.

Immediate question ( was God aware bout that challange) ?

HUMAN of present world

Rob, rape, murder, lie, consprisy, evil plotting, invasions, wars, political dramas, creating virus for newly introduced medicines, etc

Religious groups and sub groups by a single teaching resulting in different god/s numbered in millions by the same ignorant human being.

Ibless must b laughing although hell is prepared for him and others feel like God is worldly KING having emotions of taking revenge whoever is going agaisnt him.

SECOND line of thinking.

We should treat the story as STORY. 
Becoz although human being proved himself ignorant and stupid but he still understand, if something does not make sense then its not from ORIGINAL god.

As yet ibless score is more than the human god of (story) By human tales of adam and mate.
IT appears he won over god/s dosent matter to him if he is going to hell.

Things are complicated in different other books who have that same story also got questions for reader but as i said before questions are lot but answers are really hard and unsatisfactory.

In the field of religious studies this story treated as theory over fact.
Same like in science some things are treated as theory.

At this point we need to wait for updated version or proven truth by some findings . Faith alone is not enough to crack that story and all points related to it.

rahi

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Re: Yield or prostrate to Adam?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2019, 06:07:41 PM »
Thanks for responding folks.

The 'ruh' of God within us is definitely interesting. In a way saying that it _may_ have been justified for Iblis and others to _prostrate_ to Adam. And yes, there's also the "disobedience" and arrogance piece.

The _figurative_ language is also interesting.

> So postrating means acknowledging your subservience to whoever you postrate to.

That seems like a good way of looking at those ayat.

---

One of the many reasons I've begun looking into this is because I've recently learnt that some sufi literature has sympathy of Iblis.   In a way saying that Iblis himself did not want to bow down before anything but God. I thought that was quite interesting.

Some of the additional factoids from what I've gathered

- Iblis was created out of fire (is Iblis a jinn or an angel, I'm not sure)
- Iblis was granted by God respite until the day of resurrection (he/she/it can cause havoc until then pretty much with impunity)
- Iblis will testify on the day of judgement and assert that he _never_ had any power over us, he/she/it was only able to "suggest"
- Iblis is an enemy to humans for sure, because he advocates deception and other poor forms of behaviour

I haven't come across anything in the Qur'an yet that speaks to the torment of Iblis.

The fact the he was cast out of God's heavenly presence seems pretty bad enough I guess. The way I see it, if Iblis was made of fire, and is thrown into fire, I'm not sure how bad it will be for Iblis. Perhaps not too bad. Imagine throwing some form of water into another form of water.

On the other hand, for humans who followed Iblis and who end up in the nar ????, that seems like a totally bad situation for sure.

---

Still I want to be more sure about the "yielding" vs "prostrating" translations. I want to know which is more accurate. Anyone with familiarity with the Arabic _root_ stuff?

---

Thank you again for all who have responded.

imrankhawaja

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Re: Yield or prostrate to Adam?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2019, 10:30:12 PM »
Fire will effect on fire ?

Answer.

 same way the dust will effect on dust when a brick from top of the floor can smash the human head like melon get smashed by human punch   :D

Or a small rock can make u blind if you get hit on the eye .

Human or jinn or any creation is on the mercy of all powerful and all knowledgeable chemist who know very well in which way the pain enhanced to peak.

Example the hot fluid of hell will cut the intestines and will get boiled in stomach. Example here if we have to boil a liquid we need to use energy like fire on stove.
But liquid overthere got ability to get boiled by itself without using fire and when it will reach to stomach it will boiled by itself. Its scary like hell. The word hell is scary itself someone ages ago created a place called ghenna and the concept of afraid is still with us.we can say the trade mark of making human scared is = hell punishment.

In childhood we get scared by movies and soon we understand the horrors are designed to make us feel scared.
Till date in religious book series the fire/narag/hell/jahanum is successful concept from which lot of human beings get controlled or get scared. The buyers of those books believe in that concept from ages.

Real mother never make her children scared what if child get heartattack? Instead she will become a wall between whoever trying to scared her kids. Even the mothers in animals do the same.

Real God is far far more than worldly mother in every aspect.

Layth

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Re: Yield or prostrate to Adam?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2019, 11:00:40 PM »
Dear Rahi,

The word "sujood" can work both ways (yield or prostrate) depending on context.

Just like the word "Ayah" can be verse or sign depending on context.

Here is an example of "Sajada" as "Yield":

55:6   And the stars and the trees are yielding (yasjudaan).

Obviously trees cannot psychically prostrate nor can stars.

Here is an example of "Sajada" as "Prostrate":

32:15   The only people who believe in Our revelations are those whom when they are reminded by them, they fall prostrating (kharoo sujaada), and they glorify the praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.

I would say for the story of Adam, "Yield" is the more correct understanding since Jinn do not have psychical form (made of fire) and it would seem that Satan would be more upset for being asked to be subservient to the race of humans than to do one quick "bend the knee" episode.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

rahi

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Re: Yield or prostrate to Adam?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2019, 06:57:17 AM »
Got it.The contextual understanding is why the word was translated as "yield". That makes sense to me.

It's like the Ar'rahman (Almighty vs Most Merciful) or Kursi (Chair vs Throne) reading.

This answers my question. Thank you.

Mazhar

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Re: Yield or prostrate to Adam?
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2019, 09:27:31 AM »
yield
/jiːld/
 Learn to pronounce
verb
verb: yield; 3rd person present: yields; past tense: yielded; past participle: yielded; gerund or present participle: yielding
1.
produce or provide (a natural, agricultural, or industrial product).
"the land yields grapes and tobacco"
produce or generate (a result, gain, or financial return).
"this method yields the same results"
synonyms:   produce, bear, give, supply, provide, afford, return, bring in, pull in, haul in, gather in, fetch, earn, net, realize, generate, furnish, bestow, pay out, contribute; informalrake in
"too many projects yield poor returns"
2.
give way to arguments, demands, or pressure.
"the Western powers now yielded when they should have resisted"
synonyms:   surrender, capitulate, submit, relent, admit defeat, accept defeat, concede defeat, back down, climb down, quit, give in, give up the struggle, lay down one's arms, raise/show the white flag, knuckle under; More
antonyms:   resist, defy
relinquish possession of.
"they might yield up their secrets"
synonyms:   relinquish, surrender, part with, deliver up, hand over, turn over, give over; More
antonyms:   retain
concede (a point of dispute).
"I yielded the point"
NORTH AMERICAN
give right of way to other traffic.
3.
(of a mass or structure) give way under force or pressure.
"he reeled into the house as the door yielded"
synonyms:   bend, give, flex, be flexible, be pliant
"the floorboards yielded underfoot"
noun
noun: yield; plural noun: yields
1.
an amount produced of an agricultural or industrial product.
"the milk yield was poor"
a financial return.
"an annual dividend yield of 20 per cent"
synonyms:   profit, gain, return, reward, revenue, dividend, proceeds, receipts, earnings, takings; More


hawk99

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Re: Yield or prostrate to Adam?
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2019, 10:56:35 AM »
 Siin-Jiim-Dal = lowly, humble, submissive, worship, adore, prostrate,
make obeisance
, lower/bend oneself down towards the ground, lower the
head, to salute/honor/magnify, to pay respect, to stand up, to look continuedly and
tranquilly.

obeisance = respect

basically "be nice to"

acquiesce:
synonyms: permit, consent to, agree to, allow, assent to, give one's consent to,
accept, concur with, give one's assent to, give one's blessing to, say yes to, give
the nod to, give one's approval to; More comply with, conform to, abide by,
respect, stand by, cooperate with, tolerate, brook;

give in to, bow to, yield to, submit to;

informal: go along with, give the go-ahead to, give the thumbs up to, okay, give the green light to,

[2:34] And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated,
except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.

Why did he refuse?

[7:12] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" said, "I am
better than him.
You created me from fire and created him from clay."


                                                                       :peace:

The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden