Author Topic: Why Hijab/Modesty culture is toxic to society  (Read 200 times)

Neptin

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Why Hijab/Modesty culture is toxic to society
« on: July 11, 2019, 10:10:15 AM »
My experience at the hands of modesty cultists

I've lived in the Muslim world, a GCC country for the past few years. I needed to see a radiologist for pelvis ultrasound earlier this week. Ultrasound is expensive and my health insurance only covers clinic visit, not hospitals. So I decide to find a clinic with ultrasound facilities and partner to my insurance company.

I call one of the branch of the clinic I've been recommend and they tell me their radiologist is out on leave for a week. I call the only other branch in the town and I'm told that their radiologist is a female and thus I can't take the ultrasound with them!

Now, I needed this ultrasound to figure what is wrong with me, so that I can take real medicine instead of pain relievers. But because of modesty/hijab culture, I get discriminated for being male. I now have to find another clinic, partner with my insurance company and with available ultrasound facility, and hopefully a male radiologist.

How hijab/modesty culture degrades women

Rotherham Grooming Gangs:
Quote
“Muslim girls are good and pure because they dress modestly, covering down to their ankles and wrists, and covering their crotch area. They stay virgins until marriage. They are our girls.

"White girls and non-Muslim girls are bad because you dress like slags. You show the curves of your bodies (showing the gap between your thighs means you’re asking for it) and therefore you’re immoral. White girls sleep with hundreds of men. You are the other girls. You are worthless and you deserve to be gang-raped.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/rotherham-grooming-gang-sexual-abuse-muslim-islamist-racism-white-girls-religious-extremism-a8261831.html

The worst of hijab/modesty culture in the Muslim world

In the Muslim world,

It is preferred for woman to slip and hurt herself, than for her headscarf to slip off her head in presence of non-related men.

Regardless of individual qualities and achievements, generally, women without hijab are less valued compared to ones with hijab.

It is norm for a doctor to refuse to examine patient of the opposite gender, on religious and cultural grounds.

It is norm for patients, especially female patients to go back home without examination by a doctor, if no doctor of their gender is available.


If the Lord of the universe was so concerned about modesty or hijab, why make clothes so difficult for the creatures to access?

People need to be enlightened. Our ancestors barely wore clothes. They didn't have easy access to malls and boutiques of affordable nylon, cotton, polyester and wool clothes. If they wanted to cover from cold, they sought crude animal skin.They had to risk their lives hunting games with crude tools in the wilderness to get a skin that barely covered them.

They did not have bathrooms or labor rooms, they were nomadic. If they wanted to shower or deliver their babies, they did this publicly. 

Many indigenous tribes today far from civilization live harmoniously with barely any cloth. They are not 'sexually harassing' themselves all day and having orgies all night.

If the Lord of the universe is so concerned about hijab and modesty, why design human anatomy such that essential medical procedures necessitates nudity?

To examine their patients, physicians often require certain degree of nudity from patients. I am certified to conduct Basic Life Support, if say a victim is left unconscious in a public place, the procedures requires baring the torso and compressing the chest between the breast with my hands to rescue the victim.

4 reasons why Hijab/modesty culture is toxic

Hijab/modesty culture is toxic in that it perverts nudity, so much so that gymnophobia persist in the human minds at the expense of hospitality. Nudity is not the problem, sexualizing nudity is the problem and hijab culture sexualize nudity by always associating it with sex.

It teaches people to look down upon those not compliant - "this woman is pure and noble like wrapped candy because she wears hijab, that woman is impure and dishonorable like an unwrapped candy infested with flies because she don't wear hijab."

It is toxic because, it constantly associate nudity with pornography and adultery. Ironically, hijab culture feeds these two because it build sexual repression that eventually explodes into sexual obsession, which is the final step to porn and adultery.

It is toxic because instead of teaching men more on self control and respecting every woman; it teaches women self-shame, that their bodies are problem and that the burden of preserving the family and society honor lay upon them.
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Amra94

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Re: Why Hijab/Modesty culture is toxic to society
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2019, 12:06:30 PM »
Well nudity kind of is a problem, we are commanded to cover our private parts and to dress modestly. And I would rather wait to be examined by a fellow female for something like a pelvic exam.

amin

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Re: Why Hijab/Modesty culture is toxic to society
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2019, 10:22:07 PM »
Hijab is a specific cultural dress ,
Hijab need not be toxic and its need comes in certain remote societies and under certain environmental conditions like harsh deserts and with extreme cold, where one need to cover everything and probably in remote areas where women need protection from strangers.

Here we have changed religion to idolizing instead of understanding the reason behind the goodness followed. Its just like a parent asking their kids to do certain things instead of asking reasons, where atleast the parent knows the real reason, but the problem here is even those who wants us to follow these do not themselves understand the need, it comes out of just fear and blind belief on some myth or a old custom.

by the way modesty is something different and can also be called as the 'common public norm'.

Neptin

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Re: Why Hijab/Modesty culture is toxic to society
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2019, 12:37:28 AM »
Well nudity kind of is a problem, we are commanded to cover our private parts and to dress modestly.

We are commanded to "cover our private parts and dress modestly"?

What is private part? It varies from culture to culture. It is man made concept. Same with "dress modestly".

Quote
And I would rather wait to be examined by a fellow female for something like a pelvic exam.

This is your preference due religious and cultural conditioning. I'm sure there are others who would also rather wait to be examined by their fellow gender for something like an abdominal exam.

In all my years seeing a physician here, I've never met a female Muslim physician assistant who conduct routine assessment of patients. The physician assistant is always a female non-Muslim because routine assessment of patients - auscultation, percussion, palpation - requires touching the male patients, something that hijab/modesty culture abhors for Muslim women.

Now, lets imagine I see a doctor and I'm referred for pelvic ultrasound. But the clinic or hospital have only a female radiologist. It mean I have to go to another clinic with male radiologist, do the exam and return to my doctor, right? Have you figured out the extra cost and time for transportation here?

What the clinic should've done is hired two radiologists, male and female. But this is not economical for them, so they employ only one gender at the inconvinence of patients of the opposite gender.

Look, health care is a professional matter, not something to be influenced by individual beliefs & tradition. As for the patients, they should not be forced, but encouraged to see doctors of the opposite gender if their gender is not available. Merit should be basis of selecting doctors, not gender.

As for the doctors, they should not dictate which gender is permitted to see them and which is not. Any doctor afraid to see nudity of patient of the opposite gender, shouldn't work in fields like radiology, urology, enterology, cardiology or gynecology.

Lastly, I repeat, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with nudity. Biology classes in High schools cover Reproductive system where male and female genitals are illustrated in detail. No physician complete medical school without anatomic studies of human reproductive system in cadavers.
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Jane

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Re: Why Hijab/Modesty culture is toxic to society
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2019, 02:10:58 AM »
Ultrasounds damage tissue. It's Radiation. Don't get them. If you have a health problem intermittent fast or total fast until it gets better. I just completed a 5 day dry fast. I can feel old injuries that I received 20 years ago that never fully healed start to heal some more. Aiming for a 7 day dry fast soon, hopefully that will ramp it up even more God-willing.

Otherwise I agree with everything else you wrote. I got harassed as a 16 year old whilst on holiday in Egypt in 2001; it was January and I had my limbs completely covered but the combination of being a foreign woman and not covering my head somehow made me a target for some older boys who spotted me. Never experienced anything like that in the West.
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Neptin

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Re: Why Hijab/Modesty culture is toxic to society
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2019, 07:53:55 AM »
Ultrasounds damage tissue. It's Radiation. Don't get them. If you have a health problem intermittent fast or total fast until it gets better. I just completed a 5 day dry fast. I can feel old injuries that I received 20 years ago that never fully healed start to heal some more. Aiming for a 7 day dry fast soon, hopefully that will ramp it up even more God-willing.

I'd look into this.

Quote
Otherwise I agree with everything else you wrote. I got harassed as a 16 year old whilst on holiday in Egypt in 2001; it was January and I had my limbs completely covered but the combination of being a foreign woman and not covering my head somehow made me a target for some older boys who spotted me. Never experienced anything like that in the West.

Absolutely. I forgot to mention it. People often say hijab will protect women from male predators. There is some truth to this, but on a broader picture hijab is not the proper solution. Even in hajj, women have reported getting groped by men. A Chinese Egyptian Sunnite friend told me that in Egypt, she has to be accompanied by her brother to safeguard her on the street from the harrassers. It's strange, because she covers everything but her face and hands.


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Amra94

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Re: Why Hijab/Modesty culture is toxic to society
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2019, 08:32:51 AM »
We are commanded to "cover our private parts and dress modestly"?

What is private part? It varies from culture to culture. It is man made concept. Same with "dress modestly".
You're not part of an isolated pagan tribe that walk around naked, you know what private parts should be covered.

This is your preference due religious and cultural conditioning. I'm sure there are others who would also rather wait to be examined by their fellow gender for something like an abdominal exam.

In all my years seeing a physician here, I've never met a female Muslim physician assistant who conduct routine assessment of patients. The physician assistant is always a female non-Muslim because routine assessment of patients - auscultation, percussion, palpation - requires touching the male patients, something that hijab/modesty culture abhors for Muslim women.

Now, lets imagine I see a doctor and I'm referred for pelvic ultrasound. But the clinic or hospital have only a female radiologist. It mean I have to go to another clinic with male radiologist, do the exam and return to my doctor, right? Have you figured out the extra cost and time for transportation here?

What the clinic should've done is hired two radiologists, male and female. But this is not economical for them, so they employ only one gender at the inconvinence of patients of the opposite gender.

Look, health care is a professional matter, not something to be influenced by individual beliefs & tradition. As for the patients, they should not be forced, but encouraged to see doctors of the opposite gender if their gender is not available. Merit should be basis of selecting doctors, not gender.

As for the doctors, they should not dictate which gender is permitted to see them and which is not. Any doctor afraid to see nudity of patient of the opposite gender, shouldn't work in fields like radiology, urology, enterology, cardiology or gynecology.

Lastly, I repeat, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with nudity. Biology classes in High schools cover Reproductive system where male and female genitals are illustrated in detail. No physician complete medical school without anatomic studies of human reproductive system in cadavers.
Move somewhere else.

Cerberus

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Re: Why Hijab/Modesty culture is toxic to society
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2019, 01:40:50 PM »
I think your attempt is quite superficial and then followed by a leap into your preconceived conclusions. I believe the problem is a lack of understanding of what modesty is and what its purpose on an individual scale which reflect itself in people's (clearly) contradictory behavior.

My understanding of modesty is that it's something that is tightly linked to intent, and it's something that happens within first, before it translates in our external behavior. A person can claim they're modest but that won't translate accordingly in reality if they actually don't know what modesty is.

Modesty is about going against our impulses that are aimed to fulfill ourselves by bringing ourselves up and putting ourselves on a pedestal above others, and possibly attempting to bring others down if we have to in order to put ourselves above them, even in a subtle way

Whether we're doing something for the sake of self-fulfillment or not, we cannot tell unless we keep an eye on our intents.

A scenario: Imagine a guy that is quite athletic with his pecs popping and everything. He could wear tight tops or sleeveless shirts etc and he'd feel comfortable doing so because it is self fulfilling as he feels like he is special than others or that his shape is better than others (which is why it is a source of good feeling).

In another scenario, one who shows off his expensive stuff, and for example wearing fancy clothes that people can recognize as being fancy. You can see the pattern of people trying to put themselves on a pedestal over others by any mean they can find.

In all scenarios, people can check their intents and try to see exactly why they're doing something, what motivates them. And if they see  that it's not aligning with their principle of "modesty" (provided they know it) they could decide to take actions. Actions aimed at fixing one's intent, not on hiding your quality. The buff guy isn't necessarily going to wear layers of clothes just so that he could hide his muscles but the goal is to go against your self-fulfilling intent. Not dwelling on your qualities obsessively is a good start. Acting reasonably and not in a sneaky self-fulfilling and self-serving manner. Again, the buff guy could resolve to wearing loose clothes but then that doesn't guarantee that his muscles won't show, and that's fine. What matters is his intent, as someone who wants to exercise modesty.

In short, if modesty could serve anyone it would only serve the one who practices it. If somebody has to tell you to be modest they're wasting their time with you.

Jafar

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Re: Why Hijab/Modesty culture is toxic to society
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2019, 01:40:29 AM »
Absolutely. I forgot to mention it. People often say hijab will protect women from male predators. There is some truth to this, but on a broader picture hijab is not the proper solution. Even in hajj, women have reported getting groped by men. A Chinese Egyptian Sunnite friend told me that in Egypt, she has to be accompanied by her brother to safeguard her on the street from the harrassers. It's strange, because she covers everything but her face and hands.

hijab will protect women from male predators,  :rotfl:
Biased judgement proposed by male and commonly found within Patriarchal (male dominated) society. Lead to victim blaming... oh no wonder you're are being groped, it's your own fault you didn't wear any hijab.

This is similar to, if we took the point of view on the other end of the spectrum; extreme Matriarchal (female dominated) opinion that all male should be castrated thus no female will be groped by male.
This law if applied will be more effective to avoid any female from being raped or groped by male.
Male castration will protect women from male predators  :bravo:

Moving forward, there are plenty societies on this earth where women not only they didn't wear any hijab, they didn't wear any shirt or bra either, their hair, face and breasts is just plainly open for public to see and the frequency of them being groped or sexually harassed is very minimum, much much much lower than the occurrence of sexual harassment in New York city or Cairo.





Bikrun

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Re: Why Hijab/Modesty culture is toxic to society
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2019, 03:44:00 AM »
hijab will protect women from male predators,  :rotfl:
Biased judgement proposed by male and commonly found within Patriarchal (male dominated) society. Lead to victim blaming... oh no wonder you're are being groped, it's your own fault you didn't wear any hijab.

This is similar to, if we took the point of view on the other end of the spectrum; extreme Matriarchal (female dominated) opinion that all male should be castrated thus no female will be groped by male.
This law if applied will be more effective to avoid any female from being raped or groped by male.
Male castration will protect women from male predators  :bravo:

Moving forward, there are plenty societies on this earth where women not only they didn't wear any hijab, they didn't wear any shirt or bra either, their hair, face and breasts is just plainly open for public to see and the frequency of them being groped or sexually harassed is very minimum, much much much lower than the occurrence of sexual harassment in New York city or Cairo.

 :bravo:
Absolutely agreed. Great point. Modesty is a cultural issue, among other things