Author Topic: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?  (Read 2335 times)

Iyyaka

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #70 on: September 08, 2019, 01:25:05 PM »
Salam Iyyaka,
Sorry my question is a bit out of topic.

In 2:203, whoever hurries relative to ayyaman ma'dudat then it is ok, whoever delays relative to ayyaman ma'dudat then it is also ok
Hurrying that is ok is 2 days as stated in the verse (1 day less than ayyaman ma'dudat is ok but cannot be lesser).

What about delaying? logically speaking, 11 days is ok (1 day more than ayyaman ma'dudat). But what about more than 1 day delay? How many more days in delay are still ok?

Wassalam,
Ade
Salam ade_cool,

To be honest, for answering you with full evidences, i will need to expose at least all the rhetoric analysis of surah 2 and it is too big for this forum.
But i can try to answer you.

First, the context of 2:203 is about the Hajj.

The second thing important to know is that the performance of "Hajj", in the quran, is mainly divided into 2 temporal sequences.
The verse 2:203 is about the second and last temporal sequence and express the goal of this second sequence.
The duration of this second temporal sequence is NORMALLY of 3 full days. [NB : right now i hesitate on this question - 3 days for all the Hajj or for just the second temporal sequence)
So it is from the 4th day that the delay begins and not the 11th day as you underline it.
As Allah does not give more precision and he uses the expression "Ayyaman/Ayyamin ma'doodat.." we can logically think that people stayed a few extra days, between 4 and 10 days instead of the recommended 3 days.

Another interesting fact: why does not Allah specify these 3 days precisely without using the expression "Ayyaman/Ayyamin ma'doodat." ? Because it depends if you could execute the first sequence of Hajj (phase of offering).
If this is not the case, and you are not an inhabitant of the place of the Hajj, then it is not 3 days of reminders of god that you have to perform but 10 days (3 days in Hajj + 7 days once arrived home = 10 days).
The verses 2:196 and 2:203 are connected together..

Peace to you brother and i hope my response is clear.
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

ade_cool

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #71 on: September 09, 2019, 08:08:30 AM »
Salam Iyyaka,

Apologies but I am confused now.

Previously my understanding is you are establishing that ayyaman ma'dudat = 3-10 days.

Now, after ayyaman ma'dudat has been established to be 3-10 days, I am reading 2:203.

In the beginning of the verse, God commands to remember Him in 3-10 days. And then the verse continues, if for some reasons we are in hurry and cannot do within 3-10 days, then it is ok only 2 days. And then the verse continues, if we want to stay longer than what was commanded in the beginning (3-10 days), then it is also ok.

But from your answer it seems the maximum delay is 10 days. The reason why I am confused is because it would seem redundant to say it is ok if you delay when it is not really a delay (still within ayyaman ma'dudat, i.e. still within 3-10 days as mentioned in the beginning of the verse).

I hope you understand my confusion.


Wassalam,
Ade

Iyyaka

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #72 on: September 09, 2019, 09:00:10 AM »
Salam ade_cool,

Sorry for my ugly english and no problem brother (it is my fault).

Read again the end of my previous post => Verses 2:203 is connected with 2:196.

So, you have 2 options :

Option (1) For the Hajj, you have NORMALLY to remember Allah, with strong insistence, 3 full days.

Option (2) But if you canno't offer a sacrifice, and you don't live in the city of the Hajj, it is recommended by Allah to remember Allah 3 days + 7 days = 10 days

So by saying "ayyaman ma'dudat" Allah covers the 2 situations.. the first part of the 2:103 is a general recommendation and also a help for understanding the second part of (2:203:6)

Indeed, The second part of ayat 2:103 is about the people who are staying in the place of the Hajj (didn't come back home).
For them, 3 days is enough normally. If they come back home after 2 days it is ok too and more 3 days until 10 it is ok too (with "ittaqā" of course..)

I hope it is more clear. Don't hesitate if not.

Peace brother
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

Layth

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #73 on: September 09, 2019, 11:33:04 PM »
Salam Iyyaka,

I like your analysis on this subject. Well written.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Iyyaka

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #74 on: September 10, 2019, 04:31:19 AM »
Salam Iyyaka,

I like your analysis on this subject. Well written.
Thanks brother
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

ade_cool

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #75 on: September 10, 2019, 09:18:17 AM »
Salam ade_cool,

Sorry for my ugly english and no problem brother (it is my fault).

Read again the end of my previous post => Verses 2:203 is connected with 2:196.

So, you have 2 options :

Option (1) For the Hajj, you have NORMALLY to remember Allah, with strong insistence, 3 full days.

Option (2) But if you canno't offer a sacrifice, and you don't live in the city of the Hajj, it is recommended by Allah to remember Allah 3 days + 7 days = 10 days

So by saying "ayyaman ma'dudat" Allah covers the 2 situations.. the first part of the 2:103 is a general recommendation and also a help for understanding the second part of (2:203:6)

Indeed, The second part of ayat 2:103 is about the people who are staying in the place of the Hajj (didn't come back home).
For them, 3 days is enough normally. If they come back home after 2 days it is ok too and more 3 days until 10 it is ok too (with "ittaqā" of course..)

I hope it is more clear. Don't hesitate if not.

Peace brother

Salam Iyyaka,

Brother, there is nothing wrong with your English

Thanks for explaining further! I am starting to understand what you are saying ...I will let you know if I have further questions.


Wassalam,
Ade

Wakas

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #76 on: September 10, 2019, 11:06:10 AM »
peace,


-------------------------------------
Now, as a non expert in classic arabic grammar rules, i made my research. As i said, Nouman ali KHAN (well-know traditionnal shcolars) knows this rule.
And I give you also what an expert said about the richness of Classical Arabic to express plural :
"
you have to know that Arabic, unlike French or English, expresses the plural in a very special and rich way, in addition to the plural Dual, which does not exist in French/English, there is a plural "Killa" (little) and a plural "kathra" (a lot).
When you take a word, and its plural is broken (adding other letters) it is called a broken plural (jam3 tekssir) and this plural can give an indication of the number:

-1) It is a plural "Killa" (between 3 and 10) and suddenly it is built on three schemes: (1) Af3ila (2) Af3ul (3) Af3al (4) Fi3la

-2) or It is a plural "kathra" and it has about thirty schemes (F3oul, Af3ilae etc...)

I give you an example: The word CHAHR which means MONTH

To put it in the plural "Killa" we will say: ACHHUR (on the Af3ul sceme)
whereas in the plural "Kathra" it gives:  CHHOUR(on the F3oul scheme)

the 2 plurals obtained, are translated into English by MONTH (plural) without any indication.
While an arab-speaking world knows that "Achhur" does not exceed 10 (between 3 and 10)
while CHHOUR can go from 3 to infinity.

you have an illustration of that in the Qur'an:
(9:2) "Travel the land for four months; and know that you will not reduce Allah to impotence and may Allah cover the disbelievers with disgrace."
=> Here because the number of months is 4, the Koran uses the plural killa, ie ACHHUR.
see also the same use for the 4 sacred months, or the months of the Hajj...

As soon as their number exceeds 10, the plural changes and becomes a plural Kathra:
(9:36): "The number of months, with Allah, is twelve [months], in the prescription of Allah,"
=> Here the plural used is CHHOUR, because the number exceeds 10.

While in English, translation does not change.

To be honest not all the shcolars Believe in these rule (number 10 as a max) for "ayyāman maʿdūdātin"

This is an interesting observation. It would be interesting to find out if this is consistent in Quran. Would require a lot of research however.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Iyyaka

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #77 on: September 10, 2019, 01:45:30 PM »
Salam Wakas,

I think i have demonstrated by quranic's proofs the function of "ayyaman ma'dudat" as a weak plurial form between 3 and 10.
I recognized that they are scattered in several posts but many convincing QURANIC signs have been brought.
I am waiting for counter-examples by the Quran.
Allah's word is precise and detailed.

Yes this study needs a summary article.

Peace

But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

Wakas

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #78 on: September 11, 2019, 01:49:02 AM »
peace Iyyaka,

To clarify, in my previous post I was not referring to any proofs regarding "ayyāman maʿdūdātin". I was referring to " there is a plural "Killa" (little) and a plural "kathra" (a lot)...." to which I said: "This is an interesting observation. It would be interesting to find out if this is consistent in Quran. Would require a lot of research however.".
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Iyyaka

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Re: Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
« Reply #79 on: September 11, 2019, 06:08:34 AM »
peace Iyyaka,

To clarify, in my previous post I was not referring to any proofs regarding "ayyāman maʿdūdātin". I was referring to " there is a plural "Killa" (little) and a plural "kathra" (a lot)...." to which I said: "This is an interesting observation. It would be interesting to find out if this is consistent in Quran. Would require a lot of research however.".
Ok sorry - i misunderstood.
Peace
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)