Author Topic: How do you understand fasting  (Read 730 times)

Mazhar

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Re: How do you understand fasting
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2019, 07:46:39 AM »
Salaam Brother Mazhar

فَمَن so who
شَهِدَ witnessed
 مِنكُـمُ among you
 ٱلشَّهْرَ the month
 فَلْيَصُـمْهُۖ then let him fast it

It is "bi kum" in the verse which means "with you".
It is not "la kum" in the verse which would mean "for you".


How one can proclaim and praise the Sublime grandeur of Allah the Mightiest upon your getting aright guided by not eating, drinking or having sex?


And using your logic what is the opposite of "sick" in the verse?

What does إِمساكٍ means as used in the Quran, for example

2:231 وَإِذَا طَلَّقۡتُمُ ٱلنِّسَآءَ فَبَلَغۡنَ أَجَلَهُنَّ فَأَمۡسِكُوهُنَّ بِمَعۡرُوفٍ أَوۡ سَرِّحُوهُنَّ بِمَعۡرُوفٍ۬‌ۚ وَلَا تُمۡسِكُوهُنَّ ضِرَارً۬ا لِّتَعۡتَدُواْ‌ۚ .........

Or

7:170 وَٱلَّذِينَ يُمَسِّكُونَ بِٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ وَأَقَامُواْ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ إِنَّا لَا نُضِيعُ أَجۡرَ ٱلۡمُصۡلِحِينَ

witness
/ˈwɪtnəs/
verb
past tense: witnessed; past participle: witnessed
1.
see (an event, typically a crime or accident) happen.
"staff who witnessed the murder"
synonyms:   see, observe, watch, look on at, be a witness to, view, note, notice, spot; More
2.
have knowledge of (a development) from observation or experience.
"what we are witnessing is the birth of a new political entity"

But the second consonant has Kasra, the verb is from inf. n. شُهُودٌ,

Lane's Lexicon
He was, or became, present at it, or in it; (S, A, Mgh, L, Msb, * K;) namely, a place, (Mgh,) or an assembly. (Msb.) Hence the saying, (Msb,) فَمَنْ شَهِدَ مِنْكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ, in the Kur [ii. 181], Therefore whosoever of you shall be present in the month, and stationary, not journeying, he shall fast therein (Mgh, Msb) as long as he shall remain present and stationary:

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Re: How do you understand fasting
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2019, 12:01:09 AM »
witness
/ˈwɪtnəs/
verb
past tense: witnessed; past participle: witnessed
1.
see (an event, typically a crime or accident) happen.
"staff who witnessed the murder"
synonyms:   see, observe, watch, look on at, be a witness to, view, note, notice, spot; More
2.
have knowledge of (a development) from observation or experience.
"what we are witnessing is the birth of a new political entity"

But the second consonant has Kasra, the verb is from inf. n. شُهُودٌ,

Lane's Lexicon
He was, or became, present at it, or in it; (S, A, Mgh, L, Msb, * K;) namely, a place, (Mgh,) or an assembly. (Msb.) Hence the saying, (Msb,) فَمَنْ شَهِدَ مِنْكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ, in the Kur [ii. 181], Therefore whosoever of you shall be present in the month, and stationary, not journeying, he shall fast therein (Mgh, Msb) as long as he shall remain present and stationary:

Yes Mazhar I know what Lane reported from canonized meanings but I stick to the root meanings of a word. I gave you a simple translation for comparison with your loaded translation.

Mazhar

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Re: How do you understand fasting
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2019, 04:38:00 AM »
Yes Mazhar I know what Lane reported from canonized meanings but I stick to the root meanings of a word. I gave you a simple translation for comparison with your loaded translation.

It is naive to call that a translation,. Translation does not mean meanings of individual words.

Mazhar

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Re: How do you understand fasting
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2019, 04:57:40 AM »
Yes Mazhar I know what Lane reported from canonized meanings but I stick to the root meanings of a word. I gave you a simple translation for comparison with your loaded translation.

It is the first and basic meanings:

Ibn Faris [died 1005] stated:
(مقاييس اللغة)
الشِّينُ وَالْهَاءُ وَالدَّالُ أَصْلٌ يَدُلُّ عَلَى حُضُورٍ وَعِلْمٍ وَإِعْلَامٍ مِنْ ذَلِكَ الشَّهَادَةُ،

That it leads to the perception of presence, witnessing and knowledge and its notifying, telling. And it signifies evidence, eye witness. testimony.

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Re: How do you understand fasting
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2019, 09:41:16 PM »
It is naive to call that a translation,. Translation does not mean meanings of individual words.

I think translation is meaning of words. Are you mixing translation with interpretation.

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Re: How do you understand fasting
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2019, 09:44:23 PM »
It is the first and basic meanings:

Ibn Faris [died 1005] stated:
(مقاييس اللغة)
الشِّينُ وَالْهَاءُ وَالدَّالُ أَصْلٌ يَدُلُّ عَلَى حُضُورٍ وَعِلْمٍ وَإِعْلَامٍ مِنْ ذَلِكَ الشَّهَادَةُ،

That it leads to the perception of presence, witnessing and knowledge and its notifying, telling. And it signifies evidence, eye witness. testimony.

How does this basic meanings contradicts with "shahida"= He witnessed given in my translation?


Mazhar

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Re: How do you understand fasting
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2019, 09:34:44 AM »
I think translation is meaning of words. Are you mixing translation with interpretation.

Considering the meanings and purpose of translation we can say that all reading is in fact translation and interpretation. A native reading the text of his language is in fact transferring the meanings, perception and the message contained therein to his memory where it is written in a form different than the form of language he watched on paper. Mere memorization of the text is not translation but is transcription in the meanings of writing out or lodging an exact copy of something in memory. Storage of longer text in long term or procedural memory and its retrieval is perhaps best achieved through mechanism of rehearsal.

Since the source language Arabic is Semitic while target Language English is Germanic, the Metaphrase involving "word by word" and "line by line" translation would in fact be no translation because intent of the text will not be clearly perceivable.

Another concept that collocates with translation is interpretation. It is defined as transference of meaning of spoken and heard words in the language of second person. The difference between the two is of real time versus delayed. Interpreting occurs in real time. It happens in person. An interpreter transfers the meanings in both directions, on the spot, without any reference material. Interpreter is thus fluent in both the languages.

Translation is a delayed activity because it takes place long after a text is created. It gives the translator time to access resources, like lexicons, glossaries, grammar books, and these days Google to access any subject. Therefore, it is obviously an easier and less taxing task than the job of an interpreter.

The physical and sensory modalities of speech and writing are distinct. They are distinctly different as the physical processes of speaking and writing. Similarly the physical and sensory modalities of interpretation and translation are different. For interpretation, sound - voice is the medium and the organ used is ears while in translation the first medium is the vision through the organ of eyes.

In real world experience the end product of both is communication. Both aim at explanation or establishment of the meaning or significance of something stated orally or in writing. It is also the case when the speaker and listener, and author and the reader, have the same language. The listener and reader interprets the spoken and written words of his own language and saves as perception what he thought or comprehended the speaker or writer intended to convey him.

Except being one directional, the translation is in fact interpretation. For translation the first requirement is the skill for reading. Reading involves translating text into sounds or spoken words. And comprehension involves deriving meanings from those sounds.

http://haqeeqat.pk/TranslationOfQuranIntro.htm

Mazhar

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Re: How do you understand fasting
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2019, 09:37:29 AM »
How does this basic meanings contradicts with "shahida"= He witnessed given in my translation?

witness
/ˈwɪtnəs/
verb
past tense: witnessed; past participle: witnessed
1.
see (an event, typically a crime or accident) happen.
"staff who witnessed the murder"
synonyms: see, observe, watch, look on at, be a witness to, view, note, notice, spot; More
2.
have knowledge of (a development) from observation or experience.
"what we are witnessing is the birth of a new political entity"

Jafar

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Re: How do you understand fasting
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2019, 02:05:24 PM »
Peace,

so Ramadan's starting tomorrow right...

But some people say that the Qur'an doesn't teach to fast a whole month every year but rather, to fast a few day/s every month...

Youtuber Quran Centric talks about this...

What do you think?

The basic principle:
Ritual is for men and not men for ritual..

Fasting is a good exercise for better control.
Better control of what?
Of your emotion and urge.

As for the frequency and timing; there is no such thing as one size fits all.
For those who think that a month a year is more suitable for them then it's fine.
For those who think that a few days every week for the entire year is more suitable for them then it's also fine.

It's back to the individual, again the objective is about improving the ability to control the emotion and urge where it varies in accordance to individual and the situation of such individual.

Just like exercise.. you feel that you're overweight then exercise more...


Iyyaka

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Re: How do you understand fasting
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2019, 02:07:57 PM »
witness
/ˈwɪtnəs/
verb
past tense: witnessed; past participle: witnessed
1.
see (an event, typically a crime or accident) happen.
"staff who witnessed the murder"
synonyms: see, observe, watch, look on at, be a witness to, view, note, notice, spot; More
2.
have knowledge of (a development) from observation or experience.
"what we are witnessing is the birth of a new political entity"
Yes "Witness" is a word with TWO mainly meanings. I just add for the second definition you gave the sense of "Confirm the truth, the value of (qqch.).." like in 12:26

Quran confirms these 2 meanings for the root of the word "Shahida". So now choose your definition…
1) See a "month" ?
2) Confirm the true of a month ?

------

2 further grammatical additions :

1) Translate "Siyam" in English by "To fast"in 2:185  is GRAMMATICALLY INCORRECT because the verb "TO FAST" is an Intransitive verb (No object!). Indeed, in 2:185 we have "falyaṣum'hu" => PRON – 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun

2) (2:185:4) "unzila" => V – 3rd person masculine singular (form IV) passive perfect verb.
The passive form indicates that the month is not really important but "al-quran" is more important ! Grammatical rules :
- In the active voice, the subject does the action.
- On the contrary, to the passive voice, the subject undergoes action.


NB : For Mazhar, English words come also from french not only from germany ! ;)
aime celui qui ne cesse pas d'ętre lorsque toi tu cesses, afin d'ętre tel que tu ne cesseras jamais d'ętre (Ma Ananda Mayi)