Prophet Saleh

[tutti_frutti]

salam janet and good logic

beyond that both moses and joseph were mentioned to be in misr, 40:34 clearly mentions they were in same place

"and joseph had come to you before with proofs, but you remained in doubt regarding what he came to you with, until when he died, you said: "The God will not send any messenger after him." It is such that The God sends astray he who is a transgressor, doubter" (40:34)

when jospeh tells his brothers to return to their father, he tells them to tell their father from 12:81 and 82
12:82 states the following
"and ask the people of the town which we were in, and the caravan which we have returned with. we are being truthful." (12:82)

whether the word "kariya" is indeed town, or wether the brothers meant to say a town in the country of Egypt .. no idea

however, for me, misr is probably Egypt

janet, you mention about abraham being in Mesopotamia and all ... I assume you got that information from the bible .. the Torah also mentions that moses was in Egypt(and abraham too having migrated there) .. why then believe in part of the Torah and not the other part?

also Mesopotamia is a region ... not a nation

if you are going by root word (and that is IF etymologies are even correct), and in 1000 years a book mentions the United Kingdom, are we going to say no it is not the UK? will we say it means a kingdom united and not the UK itself?

also, The God tells us in verse 2:65 (and in 7:166) that He made the sabbath transgressors into "despicable apes"

"you have come to know who it was among you that transgressed the sabbath, We said to them: "be despicable apes!"

I believe this verse refers to whom scientists refer to as "human-ape ancestor" ... there is no such ancestor, but rather sabbath transgressors who were made into "despicable apes" .. and all fossils have been found in Africa .. so I believe misr is definitely in Africa and it is Egypt

...btw janet regarding your previous mention of the giant syrian camel being 150 000 years as scientists mention ... I completely disbelieve in datings that scientists believe and say ...
for me, science cannot explain many things and as such develops false theories and makes random assumptions

example science cannot explain why monkeys and swine are very similar to humans and so they delve into weird theories whilst the answer is in Sarah 5 verse 60 ... monkeys and apes were made from humans

peace

[janet]

Salaam Tutti Frutti,

janet, you mention about abraham being in Mesopotamia and all ... I assume you got that information from the bible .. the Torah also mentions that moses was in Egypt(and abraham too having migrated there) .. why then believe in part of the Torah and not the other part?

The Torah mentions that Abraham came from Mesopotamia and he settled and died in Hebron. It is also a known fact that celestial worship was predominant in Mesopotamia so it fits that he came from there. Abraham may have lived in Egypt for a period of time, but he left Egypt and settled in Palestine. The parts of the Torah that match the Quran are what I believe.

also Mesopotamia is a region ... not a nation

if you are going by root word (and that is IF etymologies are even correct), and in 1000 years a book mentions the United Kingdom, are we going to say no it is not the UK? will we say it means a kingdom united and not the UK itself?

Mesopotamia was a region and a civilisation. To answer the second part of your statement, etymology is important because your entire language meaning is built on etymology. We have already affirmed that "mitzrayim" is an Akkadian word and does not come from the Egyptian language. The meaning of words and where they come from is what has created language. Also, the names of countries and their borders have been changing since the beginning of time, so what is called UK today may not be called UK a thousand years from now.

also, The God tells us in verse 2:65 (and in 7:166) that He made the sabbath transgressors into "despicable apes"

"you have come to know who it was among you that transgressed the sabbath, We said to them: "be despicable apes!"

I believe this verse refers to whom scientists refer to as "human-ape ancestor" ... there is no such ancestor, but rather sabbath transgressors who were made into "despicable apes" .. and all fossils have been found in Africa .. so I believe misr is definitely in Africa and it is Egypt

This is your opinion and you are free to believe it.

...btw janet regarding your previous mention of the giant syrian camel being 150 000 years as scientists mention ... I completely disbelieve in datings that scientists believe and say ...
for me, science cannot explain many things and as such develops false theories and makes random assumptions

example science cannot explain why monkeys and swine are very similar to humans and so they delve into weird theories whilst the answer is in Sarah 5 verse 60 ... monkeys and apes were made from humans

peace

If you do not believe in datings given by scientists then how can you believe in fossil datings and findings in Africa by scientists?
Your theory of monkeys and apes being made from humans is unique and I find it hard to see how humans became monkeys and apes.


Regards,
Janet

[tutti_frutti]

salam janet

thank you for your reply

my understanding:

perhaps the episode of abraham contemplating the sun moon and star does not necessarily equate to the celestial worships at that time ... maybe abraham was just exploring on his own
also did they not worship annunaki and variants of them in mesopotamia?

you take what fits in Torah and Quran ...
please share where it is mentioned in Quran that abraham was in mesopotamia?
however, Torah mentions egypt and Quran mentions misr which is universally known as egypt and also both mentiob pharaoh/firawn (unless you do not think firawn is pharaoh)

if in 1000 years another place is called UK ... what does that change?? if a story is about today, so in 1000 years it would still be about the UK as it is today no matter what the UK would be in 1000 years

you find it hard to believe that monkeys/apes and swine were created from humans (5:60) and that sabbath transgressors were turned into despicable apes (2:65 and 7:166) ... The God is capable of all things, so why do you find it hard to believe if i may ask?

and how do you please understand 5:60, 2:65, and 7:166??
(please note that 2:66 mentions they (2:65) were made as exemplary punishement)

also please note that as per my understanding 5:60 is a very different event than 2:65 and 7:166 (whether 2:65 and 7:166 refer to same town .. perhaps perhaps not ...
in any case for me 2:65 and 7:166 refer to what scientists call “human-ape ancestor” whilst 5:60 refers to the creation of swine and monkeys/apes as we know them)

i do believe fossils were found ... i do not believe the dates attributed to the fossils

peace 😊

[janet]

Salaam Tutti Frutti,


The annunaki are the celestial gods worshipped by the Mesopotamians. They are the gods/ goddesses of the sun, moon, stars etc.


"The earliest known usages of the term Anunnaki come from inscriptions written during the reign of Gudea (c. 2144–2124 BC) and the Third Dynasty of Ur.[9][11] In the earliest texts, the term is applied to the most powerful and important deities in the Sumerian pantheon: the descendants of the sky-god An.[9][26]This group of deities probably included the "seven gods who decree":[27] An, Enlil, Enki, Ninhursag, Nanna, Utu, and Inanna.[28]"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anunnaki

you take what fits in Torah and Quran ...
please share where it is mentioned in Quran that abraham was in mesopotamia?
however, Torah mentions egypt and Quran mentions misr which is universally known as egypt and also both mentiob pharaoh/firawn (unless you do not think firawn is pharaoh)

Perhaps you did not understand what I wrote in my last post. I believe the parts of the Torah that match the Quran. I believe in all of the Quran and I believe in the parts of the Torah that fit in with the Quran. For example, there is no mention of incest in the Quran but there is in the current translation of the Torah and I do not believe prophets would commit incest, therefore I do not believe that part of the Torah.

Both Torah and Quran refer to "mitzrayim" and "misr", which you translate as Egypt and I translate as Mesopotamia. You back this idea of "misr" equals Egypt with the word "firaun" which you translate as pharaoh and I translate as tyrant/aggressor. I prefer to look at the meaning and origin of the words used in the religious books to see if they become more clear. All names (proper nouns) have meanings which are either common nouns, adjectives, verbs or adverbs. 

if in 1000 years another place is called UK ... what does that change?? if a story is about today, so in 1000 years it would still be about the UK as it is today no matter what the UK would be in 1000 years

My point is that geographic borders change over the years due to wars and conquering of countries. They are renamed and assimilated into the conquering land. What was once Palestine is now Israel, what was once Mesopotamia is now Syria,Turkey, Iraq and so on. How would one know where the original borders/boundaries were? The only way one would know is if the land was defined by geological boundaries like mountains, oceans, rivers and so on. This is exactly the case with Mesopotamia, the land between two rivers, "mitzrayim". These very same rivers are mentioned by "firaun". Egypt is only famous for the Nile whereas Mesopotamia is known for the Tigris and Euphrates.


 And Pharaoh proclaimed among his people, saying: "O my people! Does not the dominion of Egypt belong to me, (witness) these streams flowing underneath my (palace)? What! see ye not then? 
43:51 |ونادى - And called out| فرعون - Firaun| في - among| قومه - his people;| قال - he said,| يا - O| قوم - "O my people!| أليس - Is not| لي - for me| ملك - (the) kingdom| مصر - (of) Egypt| وهذه - and these| الأنهار - [the] rivers| تجري - flowing| من - underneath me?| تحتي - underneath me?| أفلا - Then do not| تبصرون - you see?|

you find it hard to believe that monkeys/apes and swine were created from humans (5:60) and that sabbath transgressors were turned into despicable apes (2:65 and 7:166) ... The God is capable of all things, so why do you find it hard to believe if i may ask?

and how do you please understand 5:60, 2:65, and 7:166??
(please note that 2:66 mentions they (2:65) were made as exemplary punishement)

also please note that as per my understanding 5:60 is a very different event than 2:65 and 7:166 (whether 2:65 and 7:166 refer to same town .. perhaps perhaps not ...
in any case for me 2:65 and 7:166 refer to what scientists call “human-ape ancestor” whilst 5:60 refers to the creation of swine and monkeys/apes as we know them)

I do not believe that these humans who broke the sabbath were magically and instantly transformed into monkeys as they were standing. Nor do I believe that this transformation happened gradually in that same lifetime. I believe in karma and reincarnation so I believe that this was their destiny for the future life that they would reincarnate into.

2:65, 5:60 and 7:166 are all referring to the same incident and concept. All these ayats are referring to the sabbath and what the Jews are allowed to consume. 2:66 is referring to the sabbath being made as a lesson for the Jews of that time and their descendants.

i do believe fossils were found ... i do not believe the dates attributed to the fossils

That would make it impossible to know which discovered fossil is dated the oldest and which is the youngest, which in turn would make it impossible to know where humans originated from.

I believe this verse refers to whom scientists refer to as "human-ape ancestor" ... there is no such ancestor, but rather sabbath transgressors who were made into "despicable apes" .. and all fossils have been found in Africa .. so I believe misr is definitely in Africa and it is Egypt

Fossils have been discovered all over the world, not only in Africa. If you do not believe the dates attributed to these findings, then how do you know which fossil is the oldest one discovered and which one is the youngest? By this logic, the fossils found in Australia could predate the ones in Africa. Does that mean that "misr" is in Australia?


Regards,
Janet

[good logic]

You may find this interesting :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BtpzK9qGPo

It sheds some light on Qoran details about Egypt and its history.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[janet]

Salaam Good Logic,


Thank you for sharing the information on Egypt's history. A few facts were not accurately portrayed in my opinion. The Boulaq 18 papyrus is predated  by the Code of Hammurabi. The Code of Hammurabi is actually the first evidence of impalement as punishment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impalement


Another point is that amputation as a form of punishment originated in Mesopotamia, not Egypt. It is mentioned in the Code of Hammurabi.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4160514/


Many elements of Mesopotamian culture have influenced the Egyptian civilisation.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–Mesopotamia_relations



Regards,
Janet

[good logic]

Yes sister, the middle east is a close area and all countries around it influence each other.
The history of Misr/Egypt is one of the oldest and the most influential.

Like I said we could be going back and forth with links .
 Kings,Pharaohs and pyramids are first and foremost linked to Egypt throughout that history.
Thank you for the conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[janet]

Salaam Good Logic,

The history of Egypt is amongst the oldest but definitely not the most influential, since others are equally if not more influential. I don't know about kings but pharaohs and pyramids are linked to Egypt throughout history. However this is not about manmade history, as in this example of "misr" meaning Egypt. According to the same source that this fact is being based upon (the Torah) Abraham married his half-sister and Lot's daughters committed father-daughter incest! The Quran never calls "misr" Egypt. It describes it as a region and it never says "firaun" is a title of the ruler of "misr". These are manmade interpretations. In fact, the Quran distinctly describes the region and its architecture in specific ways which make no sense if "misr" is Egypt.


Regards,
Janet

[tutti_frutti]

salam janet

hope all is good

i believe that 2:65/7:166 and 5:60 are definately not the same event ... just look at the wording

what so you mean you do kot believe they “magucally” became monkeys for 2:65 and 7:166? no one said they “magically” transformed ... they were turned into despicable apes by The God ... and He is capable of ALL things

“human ape ancestors” were found in africa and not in australia or in thailand or anywhwre else

and regarding dating ... i dont believe in dating by scientists i believe in what The God says in Quran ... and i u serstand 2:65 and 7:166 concerns what people call “human/ape ancestors” and who are actually sabbath transgressors transformed ... The God says when He wants something He simplybsays to it Be and it is ... well in the verse He tells us He tols them “Be despicable apes” ... so what is there not to believe?!!

petra i understand are not homes carved but tombs ... perhaps homes too i dont know

i am exploring misr as being egypt where noah’s people landed, aad, thamud, pharaoh and people and mohammed lived ..
and pyramids actually built by aad ... if we can perhaps say aad and iram are the same, perhaps what people translate as “pillars” in Quran are pyramids? this is just a guess 😊

ill post verses that encourage me to explore that route as i dwelve more into it with The God’s permission

peace

[janet]

Salaam Tutti Frutti,

2:65, 5:60 and 7:166 are all referring to the Mosaic covenant.

what so you mean you do kot believe they “magucally” became monkeys for 2:65 and 7:166? no one said they “magically” transformed ... they were turned into despicable apes by The God ... and He is capable of ALL things

“human ape ancestors” were found in africa and not in australia or in thailand or anywhwre else

and regarding dating ... i dont believe in dating by scientists i believe in what The God says in Quran ... and i u serstand 2:65 and 7:166 concerns what people call “human/ape ancestors” and who are actually sabbath transgressors transformed ... The God says when He wants something He simplybsays to it Be and it is ... well in the verse He tells us He tols them “Be despicable apes” ... so what is there not to believe?!!

These people were either physically transformed into apes or metaphorically. If it is a physical transformation from human to ape then it has never been seen by any known human. So the process of transformation from human to ape has never been viewed, therefore it cannot be that humans were turned into apes whilst living their lives. If they died and were sent back to earth as apes in another incarnation, that is a separate matter altogether and we are referring to reincarnation. If it is a metaphorical reference then the matter is easily understood.

I've heard of Darwin's theory of evolution, but that was before we became homo sapiens. What you are saying is the opposite, that homo sapiens became apes. You are proposing that our ape-like ancestors were actually sabbath breakers which cannot be since Adam had not come into being. Adam had knowledge and language which was something our ape-like ancestors were struggling for! Adam had communication with God which our ape-like ancestors were not known for.


https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Allah-turn-sabbath-breakers-into-monkeys-and-pigs


As for Petra, 85 percent of Petra is still undiscovered and there had to be homes built for people to live in!


https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/petra/the-people-of-petra

http://www.wheretonexttravelblog.com/petra-jordan-lost-city/

i am exploring misr as being egypt where noah’s people landed, aad, thamud, pharaoh and people and mohammed lived ..
and pyramids actually built by aad ... if we can perhaps say aad and iram are the same, perhaps what people translate as “pillars” in Quran are pyramids? this is just a guess 😊

ill post verses that encourage me to explore that route as i dwelve more into it with The God’s permission

peace

Please refer to the links provided below.


https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610112.msg414328#msg414328

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610293.0


Regards,
Janet