Poll

Why do you believe that alQuraan is sent down from Allah?

I believe so because I born in a Muslim family
0 (0%)
I believe so because I read and understood it in my language and found it to be unique
6 (28.6%)
I believe so because of challenges given in alQuraan to produce a sura like in it
8 (38.1%)
I don't believe that alQuraan is from Allah, but some intelligent people wrote it
0 (0%)
I don't believe that alQuraan is from Allah, but HUM or WE [some other creation] sent it
2 (9.5%)
I don't believe that alQuraan is from Allah as it has many contradictions
2 (9.5%)
I don't care if it is from Allah or not, it doesn't matter, I just take what is good from it
3 (14.3%)
I don't want to answer this question
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Author Topic: :: Why do you believe that alQuraan is sent down from Allah? ::  (Read 2246 times)

imrankhawaja

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Re: :: Why do you believe that alQuraan is sent down from Allah? ::
« Reply #70 on: June 14, 2018, 09:25:57 AM »
@ sardar if u want to do it then easy way is to bring 2:62 in it its works as a counter argument for those who still are confused and want to put quranist in the catagories presented by book

first error u cant put a label/cast/religion in the place of hypocrates/disbelievers/mischiefmakers

becoz in every label/religion/nation of world these catagories from quran exist

treating quran as idol is not different than makin idols by your own hands

when anybody claim I AM Quranist then the first default error is revising in between a human ego
 yes and same goes for sunni shai and everybody

@ cerberus bro ur posts are always lovely to read i agree with you
@ jaffar ur posts are also worthy works like a neutral mind and with neutral mind we can generate neutral results


SO which of the MIRACLES/MARVELS of your Lord you will deny
55:55.

The Sardar

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Re: :: Why do you believe that alQuraan is sent down from Allah? ::
« Reply #71 on: June 14, 2018, 11:38:37 AM »

first error u cant put a label/cast/religion in the place of hypocrates/disbelievers/mischiefmakers

becoz in every label/religion/nation of world these catagories from quran exist

treating quran as idol is not different than makin idols by your own hands


I am a little lost here, did i made some mistakes? Last thing i want is to treat Quran/Divine Revelation as a idol, that would be weird and honestly stupid of me. Hope i said it right.

Jafar

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Re: :: Why do you believe that alQuraan is sent down from Allah? ::
« Reply #72 on: June 14, 2018, 02:01:52 PM »
treating quran as idol is not different than makin idols by your own hands

when anybody claim I AM Quranist then the first default error is revising in between a human ego
 yes and same goes for sunni shai and everybody

@ cerberus bro ur posts are always lovely to read i agree with you
@ jaffar ur posts are also worthy works like a neutral mind and with neutral mind we can generate neutral results

By the standard you judge others, with the some standard you will also be judged.

I can put forth an evidence that one of my Quran is sent down from China.
Because it's said so in the back cover. "Printed In China".

If the label is not enough, certainly I can trace it from the store which I purchased the book, to the trader who imported the books down to the company who actually printed the book.

Thus, it should makes one wonder;
WHY some people insist on the importance that a book (in this case titled Quran) is actually sent down from God?

Tracing to the earliest occurrence of a "Scripture Written / Sent Down From God", which is Marduk's Codex from Mesopotamia, which I've described here:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610198.msg416620

I can make a conclusion that it's to render some kind of "Authority" to it's readers thus the author or publisher can avoid any efforts of explaining and / or bring forth any evidence to those who dare to questioned the validity of the statements found within the scripture.

Why does wife guilty of adultery is punishable by death while the husband is not punishable at all?
Because Marduk said so, do you dare to questioned His wisdom? He will be angry and torture you for all eternity.

This notion of star as a missile to be thrown towards eavesdropping devil is ridiculous, where's the evidence?
Because Allah said so, do you dare to questioned His wisdom? He will be angry and torture you for all eternity.

etc.. etc..

Thus following the example shown by Mr. Abraham, never be afraid to expose any fraud that you find in any sources. The authority will definitely uses fear to restrained you or shut you up yet don't let the fear conquer you, as shown by example of Mr. Abraham. (And millions of others..)

reel

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Re: :: Why do you believe that alQuraan is sent down from Allah? ::
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2018, 12:31:43 AM »
Reel,

3 sides to every story

As a believer, you are reading the Abraham story with a bias. You believe in God, Prophets, Angels, Satan etc on faith. Abraham is the good guy and you accept that on faith also.

Thatís fine, every faithful does that, itís just something you need to be aware of.
 
We are never given an objective version of events in the Quran for anything. How do you think Abrahamís father would tell the same story. Just as a fun experiment try writing a paragraph to yourself from his point of view.

How would an objective observer tell the same story? Perhaps, you are assuming God is the objective observer, but you have accepted that on faith alone.
If it is possible, I would like you to suspend your assumptions and re-read the story, critically.

Did you read my first reply to OP? Your problem is that you are forcing mainstream islamic belief on us. I challenge you before you make an uneducated assumption that I accept him based on faith. Go follow the instructions given in Quran first. Change your heart exactly like God tells in the Book. Evaluate the results and then come here and comment. We will then know what being objective and subjective means. The instructions are very simple. No need for looking for sectarian salat choreography in Quran.





Quote
Is polytheism evil. Where is the evidence?

Follow Quran and you will get your evidence.

Quote
We are given very little information about Abrahamís community but lets examine for what crime they are the bad guys.

Their crime is only that they worship idols. Whatís wrong with that?  Are we saying that a polytheist is inherently bad and a monotheist inherently good? Real life tells us that it makes no difference what your religious beliefs are.  Polytheist communities have faired just as well as monotheist. If there was no Mohammed would the middle east have been worse off.  The Quran offers no objective evidence that monotheism is better than polytheism.

Of course, certain practices can be bad within religions. E.g. child sacrifice, slavery, circumcision etc. It would be right to challenge those directly, but Abraham makes no such case.

As Abraham is the good guy the author isnít going to say something about him that would make him look bad.  However, the author only has his moral compass to decide what is good/bad. We all have different views of God, life etc and through a lot of bloodshed we have come to the conclusion that secularism is the only way for all of us to live together in peace.  Abraham is not willing to make such a compromise.

Abraham had every right to share his views about God, but he had no right threaten his community. 21:57. His father threatened him with punishment but never carried it out, until Abraham crossed a line.

For example, right now Iím Abraham. I am challenging your beliefs, which I have the right to do. But I must follow the forum rules. I canít threaten to hack this website in case you donít change your beliefs.

If I did cross that line, youíd have every right to take action against me.

We are a bit more civil these days, so thankfully no stoning or fire for me. But you could ban me, or report me to authorities if I hacked FM. Now if my Quran made you out to be the bad guy, youíd be pretty upset.

The problem isn't restricted to Abraham. The central message of the Quran is that anything other than monotheism (as laid out in the Quran) is false, and therefore inherently evil and it followers eternally condemned.



Yo guys, Burhan will be applauding as people in Afghanistan shoot believers like us. Let me remind you users that we are supposed to get shot if seen in that country. He will stand for that fatwa sheikh and tell all:Is this sheikh evil? Where is the evidence?




You think I am an idiot? You dishonestly cut off the details to talk about what not was a problem, but then again, we do not know your state of mind.

Quote
I have been a Quranist for 25 years. I'm responsible for promoting many of the apologetic interpretations. It's funny when people quote them back to me. Karma.
I know several people who call themselves Quranist but have been doing hadith stuff and then when things don't work they start yelling at God. These people also claim to be believer of only God for multiple years.

Let me tell you something, it is extremely clear that you were no practitioner of what is in the Quran. Your belief system didn't cross the sunni mindset. You still believe God is angry at STATUES and polytheism is all about STATUES. Once again, I have no time for this mediocre discussion. I applaud Wakas for even making time to reply to you. Find a sunni forum and take your discussion there. But yep, learn the meaning of karma from a dictionary. Don't get laughed at by sectarians by writing the last line on their forums.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

TellMeTheTruth

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Re: :: Why do you believe that alQuraan is sent down from Allah? ::
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2018, 12:57:25 PM »
Salam!

[4:82] Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction.

[21:22] Had there been within the heavens and earth gods besides Allah, they both would have been ruined. So exalted is Allah, Lord of the Throne, above what they describe.

The above two Ayats are enough to make me believe that there is only one Creator of the Universe and Al-Quran is a message from HIM.

May Allah bless and guide all the truth seekers.

reel

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Re: :: Why do you believe that alQuraan is sent down from Allah? ::
« Reply #75 on: July 14, 2018, 07:42:43 AM »
Oh come now dear sibling Cerberus, i was trying to show context of the verses Burhan used.  :group:

Your hard work is useless. He is here to talk as a representative of sheikhs who want you murdered for your belief. Let's remember you already like many of us broke statues of 6 key figures who go by the name of Muhammad and sit next to some all powerful God, incapable of talking without them  :-\

Edit: Okay, we broke statues of speaking demigods. So yeah, we are more hateful  ???

Quote
Thats an amazing last paragraph.One for keeps.Looks you were on an emotional high.With all those references.Superb.

Oh, the credit goes to another of our brothers here. He is inactive right now. But his job was certainly superb  :)

Abraham was trying to expose a fraud commonly believed by his own society.

Similar to what this dude named John Oliver tried to do.
Exposing the fraud of Televangelist.

Televangelists: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver
https://youtu.be/7y1xJAVZxXg

Mr. John Oliver deed will match the level of difficulty that Abraham faced if these conditions are met:

- Oliver's own dad is a televangelist himself which fraud he exposed on public TV.
- The US government is in a form of Absolute Monarchy, and the Emperor / Monarch supported and enforced the religion propagated by televangelists.
- The act of Mr. Oliver, airing a 'blasphemy to God' on public television is punishable by death through burning at the stake; in accordance to US Criminal Law which in itself a Divine law sent down by God in a form of a tablet. (thus even the act of questioning or trying to change the law is also punishable by death).


US gov in emperor form, Oliver and televangelist have one thing in common. All of them are run by ummmmm:

PROTOCOL No. 17
2. WE HAVE LONG PAST TAKEN CARE TO DISCREDIT THE PRIESTHOOD OF "GOYIM," and
thereby to ruin their mission on earth which in these days might still be a great hindrance to us. Day by
day its influence on the peoples of the world is falling lower. FREEDOM OF CONSCIENCE HAS BEEN
DECLARED EVERYWHERE, SO THAT NOW ONLY YEARS DIVIDE US FROM THE MOMENT OF
THE COMPLETE WRECKING OF THAT CHRISTIAN RELIGION: as to other religions we shall have
still less difficulty in dealing with them, but it would be premature to speak of this now. We shall act
clericalism and clericals into such narrow frames as to make their influence move in retrogressive
proportion to its former progress.


5. But, IN THE MEANTIME, while we are reeducating youth in new traditional religions and
afterwards in ours, WE SHALL NOT OVERTLY LAY A FINGER ON EXISTING CHURCHES, BUT WE
SHALL FIGHT AGAINST THEM BY CRITICISM CALCULATED TO PRODUCE SCHISM ....

6. In general, then, our contemporary press will continue to CONVICT State affairs, religions,
incapacities of the GOYIM, always using the most unprincipled expressions in order by every means to
lower their prestige in the manner which can only be practiced by the genius of our gifted tribe ....
page: 33 http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ma01/Kidd/thesis/pdf/protocols.pdf

"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

The Sardar

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Re: :: Why do you believe that alQuraan is sent down from Allah? ::
« Reply #76 on: July 14, 2018, 08:47:54 AM »
Your hard work is useless. He is here to talk as a representative of sheikhs who want you murdered for your belief. Let's remember you already like many of us broke statues of 6 key figures who go by the name of Muhammad and sit next to some all powerful God, incapable of talking without them  :-\

Edit: Okay, we broke statues of speaking demigods. So yeah, we are more hateful  ???

Uh.....i am not sure how to respond to that.

good logic

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Re: :: Why do you believe that alQuraan is sent down from Allah? ::
« Reply #77 on: July 14, 2018, 12:55:26 PM »
I keep asking jafar and all those who say Qoran is from a "human" or Qoran is just like any other holy book, written and invented by humans, who is or who are the authors? No answer from them yet?

Did Mohammed take the credit for it? No answer yet?
Would a human not take credit for what they write? Who took credit for sending Qoran? No answer yet?

Surely by today s standard ,one should have come up with the one /those who came up with Qoran s content? No answer yet?

According to Qoran, who takes credit for sending Qoran? Why? If it is not true then why would a human credit what they invented to the Author of Qoran in Qoran? No answer yet?
Surely by now you would think ,if it was human, we would have found that out? Why can t we? No answer yet?:

25:4
Those who disbelieved said, "This is a fabrication that he produced, with the help of some other people." They have uttered a blasphemy and a falsehood.
وَقالَ الَّذينَ كَفَروا إِن هٰذا إِلّا إِفكٌ افتَرىٰهُ وَأَعانَهُ عَلَيهِ قَومٌ ءاخَرونَ فَقَد جاءو ظُلمًا وَزورًا
25:5
They also said, "Tales from the past that he wrote down; they were dictated to him day and night."*
وَقالوا أَسٰطيرُ الأَوَّلينَ اكتَتَبَها فَهِىَ تُملىٰ عَلَيهِ بُكرَةً وَأَصيلًا
25:6
Say, "This was revealed by the One who knows the Secret* in the heavens and the earth. He is Forgiving, Most Merciful."
قُل أَنزَلَهُ الَّذى يَعلَمُ السِّرَّ فِى السَّمٰوٰتِ وَالأَرضِ إِنَّهُ كانَ غَفورًا رَحيمًا

Typical Utterances of Disbelievers of Qoran

GOD bless.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:Ē I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.Ē

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Jafar

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Re: :: Why do you believe that alQuraan is sent down from Allah? ::
« Reply #78 on: July 14, 2018, 07:13:40 PM »
I keep asking jafar and all those who say Qoran is from a "human" or Qoran is just like any other holy book, written and invented by humans, who is or who are the authors? No answer from them yet?

5-7th century people or group of people living in Levant, heavily influenced by Jewish tradition, Jewish scriptures (Messianic Jews alias the so called writing of Early Christian Fathers included).

The mindset construct, the stories within (Moses Exodus, Jesus birth, Jesus crucifixion, Abraham, Adam story, Fall of the Devil due to refusing not to bow to Adam, Judgement Day, View Of the Cosmos, 7 Level of Heavens etc..) matches perfectly.

Which makes it a 'far fecthed' idea to think that the book was written by people or group of people living in China, Japan, India, Scandinavia, American Continent, Thailand, Indonesia and others. 5-7th century people living on the mentioned region have different kind of mindset and outlook of life.

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Did Mohammed take the credit for it? No answer yet?

IF, a very big IF that is, the book content is a 'revelation' from Mr. Gabriel to Mr. Muhammad.
Then Mr. Muhammad at least need to verify it's content that it IS 100% in accordance to what Mr. Muhammad actually heard or seen from Mr. Gabriel. Thus he need to take 'credit', at least for redactory and reviewer role. Which cannot be verified whether he did such role.

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Would a human not take credit for what they write? Who took credit for sending Qoran? No answer yet?

Depending on the version, Holy Quran Apps was sent down from Playstore or AppStore.
One of my Holy Quran was sent down from China.


Quote
Surely by today s standard ,one should have come up with the one /those who came up with Qoran s content? No answer yet?

Thousands of titles, explaining in greater details topics which was not explained or even mentioned in your holy books. All of it uses evidence from nature and experiment result and none of it make a claim that it was "written by God" and those who refuse to believe in the content shall be tortured for all eternity.

reel

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Re: :: Why do you believe that alQuraan is sent down from Allah? ::
« Reply #79 on: July 14, 2018, 09:34:25 PM »
5-7th century people or group of people living in Levant, heavily influenced by Jewish tradition, Jewish scriptures (Messianic Jews alias the so called writing of Early Christian Fathers included).


The mindset construct, the stories within (Moses Exodus, Jesus birth, Jesus crucifixion, Abraham, Adam story, Fall of the Devil due to refusing not to bow to Adam, Judgement Day, View Of the Cosmos, 7 Level of Heavens etc..) matches perfectly.

Which makes it a 'far fecthed' idea to think that the book was written by people or group of people living in China, Japan, India, Scandinavia, American Continent, Thailand, Indonesia and others. 5-7th century people living on the mentioned region have different kind of mindset and outlook of life.



You are using this against Quran?

Humans can't escape repeating history. We are limited. An off topic example:

"These societies lived in different geographical environments; they belonged to different racial stocks; but the history of their marriage customs is the same. In the beginning each society had the same ideas in regard to sexual regulations. Then the same struggles took place; the same sentiments were expressed; the same changes were made; the same results ensued. Each society reduced its sexual opportunity to a minimum and displaying great social energy, flourished greatly. Then it extended its sexual opportunity; its energy decreased, and faded away. The one outstanding feature of the whole story is its unrelieved monotony."


"Öconvinced that the cultural process is a progressive development and that our own culture is the most developed of all cultures, we assume that every change in our cultural condition is evidence of a higher cultural development."

https://ethikapolitika.org/2014/08/19/civilizations-sex/

Religions and other aspects of human life go through this same cycle. Hence, everything seems same.



IF, a very big IF that is, the book content is a 'revelation' from Mr. Gabriel to Mr. Muhammad.
Then Mr. Muhammad at least need to verify it's content that it IS 100% in accordance to what Mr. Muhammad actually heard or seen from Mr. Gabriel. Thus he need to take 'credit', at least for redactory and reviewer role. Which cannot be verified whether he did such role.

All of it uses evidence from nature and experiment result and none of it make a claim that it was "written by God" and those who refuse to believe in the content shall be tortured for all eternity.

Muhammad is dead. But there is something called peer review. Easy to do on Quran to test his claims. 

Depending on the version, Holy Quran Apps was sent down from Playstore or AppStore.


One of my Holy Quran was sent down from China.

Not far fetched. We know every nation received something and we are not the kind of modern people we think we are.

Thousands of titles, explaining in greater details topics which was not explained or even mentioned in your holy books.

Bad news is that constitution of almost every country carries no details. So maybe we should reject them? Same is true for bills changed into laws. Technically, based on situations, agencies add details to them. That said, I see a lot of contradictions in your views. You believe we took Quran as an idol. But then you seem to take other books as your idol. You talk about how they give you out details through experiments, but you don't do any experiment on the validity of the Quran. You have a lot of focus on what authors of other books say, but when it comes to God's book you criticize it using speculations.




"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj