Author Topic: Salaam  (Read 1381 times)

coeurame

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: Salaam
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2018, 11:49:58 AM »
Since God is also All Powerful, He also decide what everything will do, think and act too isn't it?
As such: any morality or immorality that everyone and everything does it's all in accordance to His plan and will too isn't it?

Yes, God is All Powerful. In other words, God is capable of everything. However, this does not mean that He does everything.
There are certain things that God does not do. For example, God does not sleep. God does not lie. God does not turn into a human.
God does not do these things, because being tired (weak), being a liar (wrong), or being a human (a creature) are all undivine characteristics. God is the Invincible, the True, the Originator.


Similarly, God affirms that we are able to choose for ourselves. Each one of us has the ability to choose truth or falsehood.
“Say, "The truth is from your Lord, whoever desires may acknowledge, and whoever desires may reject."…” (18:29).
So, even though God is capable of controlling our every move, He does not. He allows us to make our own choices, because He made that promised to us, and God does not break His promise.
“Such is God's pledge, and God does not break His pledge, but most people do not know.” (30:6).

If God controlled people’s choices (including whether or not they believe in Him, or whether or not they obey Him), then people would no longer be responsible for their actions. This would cause 2 main problems:
1- The purpose of this life is destroyed.
“Most exalted is the One in whose hands is all sovereignty, and He is capable of all things. The One who created death and life, that He may show you, which of you will do better works? He is the Noble, the Forgiving.” (67:1-2)
2- The Day of Judgment would be completely unfair.
“Today, every person will be recompensed for what it had earned. There will be no injustice today. Truly, God is swift in reckoning.” (40:17)
The reason we are tested and the reason we are judged, is because we are responsible over our own choices.

To each human, God gives two paths: the correct one and the wrong one.
“And by the soul, and He who proportioned it. And gave it its evil and its good.” (91:8 )
God encourages the correct path and forbids the wrong path.
“God orders justice and goodness, and that you shall help your relatives, and He forbids immorality, vice, and transgression. He warns you that you may remember.” (16:90)


If we follow Him, God offers to guide us to the correct path. If we reject Him, God will leave us lost in wrong paths. The choice of whether to follow God or reject Him is ours. The consequence (being guided or being astray) is from God.

“This is My path, a Straight One. "So follow it, and do not follow the other paths lest they divert you from His path. That is what He has enjoined you so that you may be aware."” (6:153)

“… A light has come to you from God and a clarifying book. God guides with it whoever follows His acceptance, to the ways of peace; and He brings them out of the darkness and into the light by His leave; and He guides them to a Straight Path.” (5:15-16)

“No, those who do wrong follow their own lusts without knowledge. So who will guide those whom God leaves astray? They have no victors.” (30:29)
"Surely, human was created fretful. When evil visits him, impatient. And when good visits him, grudging. Except for those who pray – the ones who are consistent with their prayers." (70:19-23)

huruf

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6039
Re: Salaam
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2018, 02:17:54 PM »
Thanks for sharing this analogy with Surat al Kahf, this is actually interesting.
I do Salat 3 times a day, but there are other groups who follow 2 daily Salat, and also those that don't believe that Salat is a specific action.

Yes I understand that, but as you already know today it's much different than the 12th century.
For example, sharing these informations on forums like this would have been punished by execution to death.
Sorry for misunderstanding, when I said that people don't go to Church I did not mean Church = God.
What I really wanted to say is the fact that most people prefer transgressing and sinning instead of searching knowledge related to God. Church certainly does not represent God, but among the many idolatry and fabrications it also promotes some concepts that may stimulate one who is already inclined to believe in God, to search more. For example: the Almighty God, the Merciful God, the prophets of God, hoping in God's help, messages of love and peace towards the others. But I don't really know what is going on in Churches because I actually went there just a few times as a kid.

I agree.

I agree.
But I meant that immorality is widespread anyways, whether you take into account the amount of people going to Church or not. You see it in the way the youth dress, act and speak.

But sadly it's still pushing the trinity idea, even when other groups such as Jehova's Witnesses or also Muslims have debunked it from the Scripture itself...

God decides what is immoral, because He knows best.
And God knows while you do not know. (24:19)
I think that the law of adultery in the Qur'an is really wise; if you consider the whole surah 24 together it is really meaningful.

First, I think that such a punishment should not be carried out by the state or the authorities, but rather by those who know those who are involved (family members, community, ...)

This verse gives me the idea that this punishment is aimed at generating shame rather than pain, and as a warning to the others.
24:2 ... And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

The punishment for the slanderer is 4/5 of the punishment for adultery.
24:4 And those who accuse the emancipated females, then they do not bring forth four witnesses, you shall lash them with eighty lashes, and do not accept their testimony ever; and those are the wicked.

Both have the right for the punishment to be canceled if they swear that they are truthful.
24:6 And those who accuse their spouses, but they have no witnesses except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them is to be equivalent to that of four witnesses if it is sworn by God that he is being truthful.
24:7 And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon him if he is of the liars.
24:8 And the punishment will be averted from her if she bears witness four times by God that he is of the liars.
24:9 And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon her if he is speaking the truth.


The punishment by God is on every one who supported the slander.
24:11 Those who have brought forth the false accusation were a group from among you. Do not think it is bad for you, for it is good for you. Every person among them will have what he deserves of the sin. And as for he who had the greatest portion of it, he will have a great retribution.

The whole purpose of all that is to avoid the spread of immorality among the people. If you see what happens today because of it you will understand why is it important to avoid it.
24:19 As for those who enjoy that immorality spreads among those who have believed, they will have a painful retribution in this world and the Hereafter. And God knows while you do not know.

Then 24:30-31 enjoins the modest dress code on the believers, again to minimize immorality and adultery.

24:27-29 tells believers not to enter houses without permission

24:58-59 tells us about the importance of privacy, He gives us the advice to tell both "those who are committed to by your oath" and those who have not reached puberty and your children who did, to ask you permission before entering in your room in the times in which you probably are naked or partially naked.

24:61-64 is about the importance of respecting eachother

In my opinion this whole surah is connected and wants to show us which is the best way to live in a community.


I think you got wrong the meaning of the 26 first ayas in sura An Nur. There is no purpose to punish zina legally, the purpose of those injunctions is not punish anybody but to prevent gossip and slandering of people particularly of women.

Nobody is asked to indict in accuse anybody of zina, rather the opposite. Before anybody brings such a public accusation that person must make sure that he or she has four witnesses who also are ready to give testimony. Nobody is forced to give such testimony and no public indictement is called for.

It is for the accuser to bring the four witnesses, not any undertaking of any public body.

The wort that may befall a society is not zina but the instrumentation of zina to destroy people's lives, encroaching on their privacy and encroaching on the opportunities for redress and improvement that God gives to everybody in order to improve and relinquish unbecoming deeds, including zina. That is a mercy of God, and the accusers of zina destroy those possibilities without bringing anything good but slander and gossip.

Salaam

IsaMuslim

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 104
  • Gender: Male
Re: Salaam
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2018, 05:02:33 AM »

I think you got wrong the meaning of the 26 first ayas in sura An Nur. There is no purpose to punish zina legally, the purpose of those injunctions is not punish anybody but to prevent gossip and slandering of people particularly of women.

Nobody is asked to indict in accuse anybody of zina, rather the opposite. Before anybody brings such a public accusation that person must make sure that he or she has four witnesses who also are ready to give testimony. Nobody is forced to give such testimony and no public indictement is called for.

It is for the accuser to bring the four witnesses, not any undertaking of any public body.

The wort that may befall a society is not zina but the instrumentation of zina to destroy people's lives, encroaching on their privacy and encroaching on the opportunities for redress and improvement that God gives to everybody in order to improve and relinquish unbecoming deeds, including zina. That is a mercy of God, and the accusers of zina destroy those possibilities without bringing anything good but slander and gossip.

Salaam

Salaam thanks for this comment,
I agree with your view, in fact most of these verses are against the slander, but we must consider that indeed the command to punish adulterers is there.

Quote
The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding the system of God if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

And I think that there is a very good reason: unwanted children. In many countries, especially poor countries, this is very common and it is a great social problem, especially among poor people who then have to mantain not only their children, but also their children's children. This is why, in my opinion, fornication must be avoided. As for adultery, families get easily destroyed through it.
God knows best why the punishment is 100 lashes and not something else. I also think that this number is not random, we just must have to study more. For example, why the slanderer has 80 lashes?
Is he who is based on proof from his Lord, as he for whom his evil works have been adorned for him and they followed their desires?
~ 47:14 ~

Jafar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 3643
  • Gender: Male
Re: Salaam
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2018, 05:24:43 PM »
Did I say that it was a problem? In my previous posts I stated that the Salat is important, not what one believes it to be.

Recite what is inspired to you of the Book and hold the contact prayer, for the contact prayer prohibits immorality and vice; but certainly the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do.
~ 29:45 ~

And what is salat according to you?
And has it stop you from doing wickedness and immorality?

Quote
What you say is not immorality but evil or wickedness. When I referred to immorality I meant something like the Quranic concept of immorality (faisha).

Isn't wickedness the worst form of immorality?
What kind of morality does one have when he tortured and murdered thousands or even millions?

Quote
And yes there is a problem in the way the new generations behave here, or in the west in general, but it is difficult to explain if you don't see them directly...

They spread hatred towards immigrants and infidels?
They strive to kill and torture?
They perform suicide bombing?

Quote
I agree with what you said, but it's difficult to close an eye on the hypocrisy, arrogance, ignorance and hatred which is widespread also among the Christians.

Of course it is everywhere..

And how should we fight hypocrisy? by it's opposite, honesty.
And how should we fight arrogance? by it's opposite, humility.
And how should we fight ignorance? by it's opposite, inquiry.
And how should we fight hatred? by it's opposite, love.


Quote
We cannot blame God if we behave like that

Should we blame ?
Why not stop blaming .. and judging?

Quote
He has given us the gift of free will so that we can either submit or reject.
And God doesn't know what anyone's choice will be?

Quote
Does it mean that we cannot oppose immorality? This is what instead we as believers are supposed to do.

Anyone and anything has it's own opponent to act as counter balance.
God has devised such mechanism and it's automatically in place.

Quote
How can we make this world better? How can we change the future?
The Future will happened exactly as God willed.
You cannot 'change' it.