Author Topic: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"  (Read 7433 times)

jkhan

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Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #150 on: October 10, 2021, 02:14:40 AM »
Yes, yes, we know: Aisha's a liar and her witnesses are double so.

No pedophile or rapist, exactly what Muhammad was, is going to write a book and admit that he raped and defiled a 9-year-old child. That's why the victim and other witnesses are so important. You unrighteously blamed the victim and that means you are evil.

Muhammad stole other men's wives, murdered their husbands and raped innumerable slaves. He wrote that in the Koran. And yet you want to say, "Oh no, our hero would never do such a thing as put his Henry Shortfellow in a prepubescent girl's farj."

Here's the question, the very question that will prove me right and you wrong: How old was Aisha when she "married" Muhammad?

Why is it that no matter where you go in the world today Muslims are marrying and genitally mutilating young girls? Is it a strange coincidence or is there some historical precedence for it? Is it that the other billion or so Muslims are wrong and you handful of no bodies are right?

No issues dude... Every criminal deserves punishment for his crime, if he doesn't reform and beg for forgiveness and maintain a righteous life... So,,  if so called Aisha is true and those who witnessed are true as well, Muhammad would get his reward at the hands of God.. Coz God is just.. But for that you have to wait for some more time.. We will also wait... Let's witness what God judges. Can you interfere with what God judges... You are just a human being..
Your heart knows who you are.. Where you stand as a person as a character.  While waiting for Muhammad's punishment, just don't forget about yourself... Your destiny... Muhammad is gone and no more in this world.. His actions will be his life to come.. But you are alive.. Still you have time to live God will. Ensure that your destiny is safe before looking at other people's wrath... Every individual is responsible for what happens on the day of judgement  .. I believe in the day of ressurection and judgment and you too.. So be prepared... I know who I am and you know who you are... Let the judge whoever He is judge with perfection...

Hatred will never make a person perfect in character.. Characterless human has no value in action..

Filthy words cannot overcome a debate..  Foul is foul..

John

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Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #151 on: October 10, 2021, 11:17:55 PM »
Peace everyone..

I know some are bit lazy to open link and read.. So I did copy and paste...

John read na :rotfl:


90 Verses That Say: Jesus is Not God Nor the Literal Son of God
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90 Verses says: Jesus is not God

Compiled by Adenino Otari

All four Gospels record Jesus as saying, “Blessed are the peace-makers; they will be called sons of God.”

The word ‘son’ cannot be accepted literally because in the Bible, God apparently addresses many of his chosen servants as ‘son’ and ‘sons.’ The Hebrews believed God is One, and had neither wife nor children in any literal sense. Therefore, it is obvious the expression ‘son of God’ merely meant ‘Servant of God’; one who, because of faithful service, was close and dear to God as a son is to his father.

Christians who came from a Greek or Roman background, later misused this term. In their heritage, ‘son of God’ signified an incarnation of a god or someone born of a physical union between male and female gods. This can be seen in Acts 14: 11-13, where we read that when Paul and Barnabas preached in a city of Turkey, pagans claimed they were gods incarnate. They called Barnabas the Roman god Zeus, and Paul the Roman god Hermes.

Furthermore, the New Testament Greek word translated as ‘son’ are ‘pias’ and ‘paida’ which mean ‘servant,’ or ‘son in the sense of servant.’ These are translated to ‘son’ in reference to Jesus and ‘servant’ in reference to all others in some translations of the Bible. So, consistent with other verses, Jesus was merely saying that he is God’s servant.

Additional problems with Trinity

To a christian, God had to take human form to understand temptation and human suffering, but the concept is not based on any clear words of Jesus. In contrast, God does not need to be tempted and suffer in order to be able to understand and forgive man’s sins, for He is the all knowing Creator of man. This is expressed in the verse:

‘And the Lord said: ‘I have surely seen the affliction of My people that are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry because of their taskmasters; for I know their pains.’ (Exodus 3:7)

God forgave sin before Jesus’ appearance, and He continues to forgive without any assistance. When a believer sins, he may come before God in sincere repentance to receive forgiveness. Indeed, the offer to humble oneself before God and be saved is made to all humankind.

‘And there is no God else beside Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside Me. Look to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.’ (Isaiah 45:21-22, Jonah 3:5-10)

Biblically, people can receive forgiveness of sins through sincere repentance sought directly from God. This is true at all times and in all places. There has never been a need for the so-called inter cessionary role Jesus plays in attaining atonement. The facts speak for themselves. There is no truth to the Christian belief that Jesus died for our sins and salvation is only through Jesus. What about the salvation of people before Jesus? Jesus’ death brings neither atonement from sin, nor is it in any way a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.


PART 1
90 Verses says: Jesus is not God

1.   “All four Gospels record Jesus as saying, “Blessed are the peace-makers; they will be called sons of God. The word ‘son’ cannot be accepted literally because in the Bible, God apparently addresses many of his chosen servants as ‘son’ and ‘sons.’

My Response: Sounds like a reasonable argument…but only if you don’t provide the full picture of how the WHOLE Bible defines ‘son of God’. Rather than dishonestly or churlishly cutting up the Bible to present a skewed picture, one must look at what the Bible in its totality meant by the expression.

The Gospel of John, arguably, gives the most complete and precise meaning of the term. John, Jesus’ most intimate and loved disciple, contrasts our possibly BECOMING sons of God with Jesus always being the Son of God. Let me quote what John, under the full inspiration of God, and being a witness and recorder of Jesus’ words and life, stated about this relationship. In the very first chapter of his Gospel (that’s how important the expression and its comprehension are!), John wrote, “All creation took place through Jesus, and none took place without him. In him appeared life and this life was the light of mankind. Jesus came into the world—the world he had created—and the world failed to recognise him. Jesus came into his own creation, and his own people would not accept him. Yet wherever men did accept him he gave them the power to become sons of God. These were the men who truly believed in him, and their birth depended not on the course of nature nor on any impulse or plan of man, but on God. So the word of God became a human being and lived among us. We saw his splendour (the splendour as of a father’s only son), full of grace and truth. For while the Law was given by Moses, love and truth came through Jesus Christ. It is true that no one has ever seen God at any time. Yet the divine and only Son, who lives in the closest intimacy with the Father, has made him known.” (John 1)

Christians have always understood that there is a huge difference between becoming God’s children and Jesus being the eternal Son of God, God’s Word.

The site you quoted from has misrepresented Christian theology and soteriology.

Jesus also defined the term. Secretly, at night, a Jewish leader approached Jesus to understand what he was claiming about himself. Again John was there and recorded this leader’s words and Jesus’. Jesus said in reply to the inquiry, “No one has ever been up to Heaven except the Son of Man who came down from Heaven. The Son of Man must be lifted above the heads of men—as Moses lifted up that serpent in the desert—so that any man who believes in him may have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that God gave his only Son, so that every one who believes in him shall not be lost, but should have eternal life. You must understand that God has not sent his Son into the world to pass sentence upon it, but to save it—through him. Any man who believes in him is not judged at all. It is the one who will not believe who stands already condemned, because he will not believe in the character of God’s only Son. This is the judgment—that light has entered the world and men have preferred darkness to light because their deeds are evil.” (John 3)

2.   “Christians who came from a Greek or Roman background, later misused this term. In their heritage, ‘son of God’ signified an incarnation of a god or someone born of a physical union between male and female gods. This can be seen in Acts 14: 11-13”

My response: The passage has NOTHING to do with the subject. Read it for yourself. In fact, the site’s author has straight out LIED. No where does it mention the term!

3.   “To a christian, God had to take human form to understand temptation and human suffering,”

My response: Note that the dishonest author of this site neglects to include a citation to prove this. The reason being is that it’s not a Christian view of why God’s Word, God’s only Son, became Man. The incarnation is for an entirely different purpose. Again, the man has lied.

What Jesus did say about his incarnation was this: “The Son of Man must be lifted above the heads of men—as Moses lifted up that serpent in the desert—so that any man who believes in him may have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that God gave his only Son, so that every one who believes in him shall not be lost, but should have eternal life.” (John 3) And this, “the Son of Man himself has not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life to set many others free.” (Mark 10)

4.   “God forgave sin before Jesus’ appearance, and He continues to forgive without any assistance.”

My response: The man reveals a significant ignorance of the Bible, particularly the Old Testament covenant God made with the Israelites. The whole of the Law is almost completely controlled by the sacrificial offering of animals. That is, animal death was required. However, as Jesus, Paul and several of the prophets pointed out, this was just a temporary fix to “cover” sin.

I can’t quote the endless details and verses which clearly describe the Jewish sacrificial system, but I will quote a significant few.

Here’s the ceremony for the holiest day of the Jewish calendar, Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement: “Now the LORD spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered profane fire before the LORD, and died; and the LORD said to Moses: “Tell Aaron your brother not to come at just any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, lest he die; for I will appear in the cloud above the mercy seat. Thus Aaron shall come into the Holy Place: with the blood of a young bull as a sin offering, and of a ram as a burnt offering. He shall put the holy linen tunic and the linen trousers on his body; he shall be girded with a linen sash, and with the linen turban he shall be attired. These are holy garments. Therefore he shall wash his body in water, and put them on. And he shall take from the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats as a sin offering, and one ram as a burnt offering. Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house…So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. There shall be no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel. And he shall go out to the altar that is before the LORD, and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar all around. Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, cleanse it, and consecrate it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel…This shall be a statute forever for you: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether a native of your own country or a stranger who dwells among you. For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the LORD. It is a sabbath of solemn rest for you, and you shall afflict your souls. It is a statute forever. And the priest, who is anointed and consecrated to minister as priest in his father’s place, shall make atonement, and put on the linen clothes, the holy garments; then he shall make [j]atonement for [k]the Holy Sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year.” And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.” (Chapter 16 of Leviticus, the third book of Moses’ Torah)

Now, from the prophet Isaiah one can read that in the Messianic age no animals will be required for sacrifice: ““For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind…The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,” says the LORD.” (Isaiah 65)  and

“And in this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined wines on the lees. And He will destroy on this mountain the surface of the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; the rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; for the LORD has spoken.” (Isaiah 25)

To replace this blood-filled, daily, relentless animal sacrifice, God promised, in many places of the Bible through the prophets, that a man, and extraordinary Man, will come and be the sacrifice himself. Read carefully the prophesy of Isaiah, writing 700 years before Jesus: “Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? He has no form or comeliness; and when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him. He is despised and [d]rejected by men, a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, for He was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgressions of My people He was stricken. And they made His grave with the wicked— Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, by His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities. Because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” (Isaiah 53)

This Saviour and sacrificial Lamb’s birth place was even prophesied 500 years before it eventuated: “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from eternity.” (Micah 5:2)

5.   ‘And there is no God else beside Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside Me. Look to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.’ (Isaiah 45:21-22)

My response: Again, the site’s author cherrypicks from Isaiah and thus removes these verses from their context. Let’s see what else Isaiah says about this saviour.

In the preceding chapter Isaiah makes a claim about God: “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, AND his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God.” (Isaiah 44:6)

In chapter 43:11 the LORD states there is “no saviour” apart from Him.

In chapter 43:14 the LORD says He is the “Holy One” of Israel.

In chapter 44:6 the LORD says He is “the First and the Last”.

However, Jesus also lays claim to these unique titles.

a.   In Luke 2 an angel announces to the shepherds the Saviour of the world: “Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid. Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. And this will be the sign to you: You will find a Babe wrapped in swaddling cloths, lying in a manger.”

b.   In another incident, recorded by Jesus’ disciple John, Jesus convinces a Samaritan woman that he is the Saviour of the world: “A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”
Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”
Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”
The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.”
Jesus said to her, “You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’ for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”
The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”
The woman then left her waterpot, went her way into the city, and said to the men, “Come, see a Man who told me all things that I ever did. Could this be the Christ?” Then they went out of the city and came to Him.
And many of the Samaritans of that city believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all that I ever did.” So when the Samaritans had come to Him, they urged Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days. And many more believed because of His own word. Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.” (John 4)

c.   Jesus was identified as the Saviour from his birth: “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.” (Matthew 1)

d.   Jesus confirmed he was the Saviour of the world: “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that every one who believes in him shall not be lost, but should have eternal life. You must understand that God has not sent his Son into the world to pass sentence upon it, but to save it—through him.” (John 3)
e.   And again: “Every man who believes in me, is believing in the one who sent me; and every man who sees me is seeing the one who sent me. I have come into the world as light, so that no one who believes in me need remain in the dark. Yet, if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him—for I did not come to judge the world but to save it. Every man who rejects me and will not accept my sayings has a judge—at the last day, the very words that I have spoken will be his judge.
f.   Jesus said to John his disciple, “Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last, the living one. I am he who was dead, and now you see me alive for timeless ages! I hold in my hand the keys of death and the grave. Therefore, write down what you have seen, both the things which are now, and the things which are to be hereafter.” (Revelation 1)
g.   Jesus tells John to write this, ‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life” (Revelation 2)
h.   And again, Jesus says, “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” (Revelation 22)
i.   His disciples acknowledged Jesus was the King of Israel: “The following day Jesus decided to go into Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, “Follow me!” Philip was a man from Bethsaida, the town that Andrew and Peter came from. Now Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have discovered the man whom Moses wrote about in the Law and about whom the Prophets wrote too. He is Jesus, the son of Joseph and comes from Nazareth.”
“Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” retorted Nathanael. “You come and see,” replied Philip.
Jesus saw Nathanael coming towards him and remarked, “Now here is a true man of Israel; there is no deceit in him!”
“How can you know me?” returned Nathanael.
“When you were underneath that fig-tree,” replied Jesus, “before Philip called you, I saw you.”
At which Nathanael exclaimed, “Master, you are the Son of God, you are the king of Israel!”
“Do you believe in me,” replied Jesus, “because I said I had seen you underneath that fig-tree? You are going to see something greater than that! Believe me,” he added, “I tell you all that you will see Heaven wide open and God’s angels ascending and descending around the Son of Man!” (John 1)
j.   Even the common people came to the realisation he was the King of Israel: “The next day a great multitude that had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him, and cried out: “Hosanna! ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ The King of Israel!”
Then Jesus, when He had found a young donkey, sat on it; as it is written: “Fear not, daughter of Zion; behold, your King is coming, sitting on a donkey’s colt.”
His disciples did not understand these things at first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written about Him and that they had done these things to Him. Therefore the people, who were with Him when He called Lazarus out of his tomb and raised him from the dead, bore witness. For this reason the people also met Him, because they heard that He had done this sign.” (John 12)

More coming!

John

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Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #152 on: October 10, 2021, 11:21:19 PM »


Hatred will never make a person perfect in character.. Characterless human has no value in action..

Filthy words cannot overcome a debate..  Foul is foul..

I don't hate Muslims. I have very good Muslim friends. However, I do despise Islam as it's the most obvious false religion in the world and because Muhammad is the most obvious false prophet who has ever existed.

John

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Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #153 on: October 11, 2021, 01:24:57 PM »
PART 2 of 90 Verses says: Jesus is not God

1.   “There is no truth to the Christian belief that Jesus died for our sins and salvation is only through Jesus. Jesus’ death brings neither atonement from sin”

My Response: As much as the author would like to think it is, this is NOT an argument. A logical argument consists of much more than flat out contradiction or denial. Made famous by the Monty Python sketch (seen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k) , a rational argument is not just “an automatic gainsaying of any statement the another person makes.” It involves correct reasoning and follows formal rules of logic that ultimately aims to connect a series of statements which intend to establish a proposition. All this anti-Christian author has in fact accomplished, notwithstanding his unwarranted self-belief, is a trail of disconnected and subjective assertions, communicating much the same information i.e. none!

Logic, and its inclusion in valid and sound argument, is a skill which, while never mastered (no one is fallible), requires years of practice. As a trained philosopher it’s quite easy to pick out very poor reasoning and this guy is a serial culprit.

What strikes you immediately is that he fails to provide any criteria which would challenge his belief. That is, what evidence would he accept? That he doesn’t leaves him exposed to anything which would evince Jesus did die for our sins, is God’s sole salvatory means and is soteriologically efficacious.

Any universal negative proposition – and his is – is prone to negation by a single counterfactual. After all, if someone claims there are no pins in this room and I find one, his claim is rebutted on that one instantiation of a discovered pin. He can’t just reply and say, “Oh, but not that pin.” Or, worse, “Only if you found more pins than that one.”

And our anti-Christian polemicist is in exactly the same boat. Not only is his jejune assertion a universal claim, it is also at the mercy of any counter-evidence, not matter how weak it may be. After all, he has not stated to what measure or quality a rebuttal has to attain before it repudiates his. All it has to accomplish is to offer up any proof that his claim is false. To this end I present a minimal counter-argument which, as I have logically underscored, by the rules he has laid down, cannot be confuted. Recall that he said there is “no truth”.

a.   Long before Jesus appeared 2000 years ago, God tested Abraham. At 100 years old, before his son Isaac had been born, God had promised Abraham that “your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.” (Genesis 17)
After Isaac was born, God told Abraham to take “your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”
Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”
Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”
“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.
“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”
Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.”
Abraham then “built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
What would normally seem contradictory (i.e. that through Isaac the whole world would be blessed but yet simultaneously God asked Abraham to sacrifice him), Abraham saw past that and expressed total trust that God would fulfill his promise. (The writer of the New Testament book Hebrews quite rightly argues that Abraham resolved to his satisfaction that God would raise Isaac from the dead and thus overcome the apparent paradox.)
God then spoke to Abraham and told him that as a consequence of his faith to God, that he was quite willing to offer up his only son, that Abraham and his rightful heirs will be blessed: ““I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.” (Genesis 22)

b.   True to his word, God brought into the world his Messiah, the true Lamb of God. He was prophesied, in some people’s estimation, over a 1000 times in the Old Testament. Here is one extended prophecy which clearly sets out that the Messiah must serve as a sin sacrifice. (BTW, this is not a Christian motif but also a broad Jewish hermeneutic of this Isaiah passage. Multiple rabbis over the ages have taken this to be a Messianic and sin sacrificial chapter(s)):

“He is despised and rejected by men, a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgressions of My people He was stricken. And they made His grave with the wicked—but with the rich at His death, because He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” (Isaiah 53)
Eight hundred years before Jesus, under the holy inspiration of God, Isaiah wrote this prophecy of the coming Messiah and how he would be a sin offering for us.

c.   In the earliest days of Jesus’ ministry, his cousin John the Baptist was working and saw Jesus passing by. John cried out, “Look, there is the lamb of God who will take away the sins of the world! This is the man I meant when I said, ‘A man comes after me who is always in front of me, for he existed before I was born!’ It is true I have not known him, yet it was to make him known to the people of Israel that I came and baptised people with water.” Then John gave this testimony, “I have seen the Spirit come down like a dove from Heaven and rest upon him. Indeed, it is true that I did not recognise him by myself, but he who sent me to baptise with water told me this: ‘The one on whom you will see the Spirit coming down and resting is the man who baptises with the Holy Spirit!’ Now I have seen this happen and I declare publicly before you all that he is the Son of God! On the following day John was again standing with two of his disciples. He looked straight at Jesus as he walked along, and said, “There is the lamb of God!”” (John’s Gospel, chapter 1)

d.   On numerous occasions Jesus publicly declared himself to be God’s sin sacrifice:” No one has ever been up to Heaven except the Son of Man who came down from Heaven. The Son of Man must be lifted above the heads of men—as Moses lifted up that serpent in the desert—so that any man who believes in him may have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that every one who believes in him shall not be lost, but should have eternal life. You must understand that God has not sent his Son into the world to pass sentence upon it, but to save it—through him. Any man who believes in him is not judged at all. It is the one who will not believe who stands already condemned, because he will not believe in the character of God’s only Son. This is the judgment—that light has entered the world and men have preferred darkness to light because their deeds are evil. Anybody who does wrong hates the light and keeps away from it, for fear his deeds may be exposed. But anybody who is living by the truth will come to the light to make it plain that all he has done has been done through God.” (John 3)

In addition, Jesus stated “Then Jesus said, “That voice came for your sake, not for mine. Now is the time for the judgment of this world to begin, and now will the spirit that rules this world be driven out. As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men to myself.” (He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.)” (John 12)

And “As they went about together in Galilee, Jesus told them, “The Son of Man is going to be handed over to the power of men, and they will kill him. And on the third day he will be raised to life again.” This greatly distressed the disciples.” (Matthew 17)

And “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Mark 10)

2.   “nor is it in any way a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.”

My Response: I’ve already provided several prophetic fulfillments in the previous point. Here are just another few.

a.   “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.” (Zechariah 12)
b.   “But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised by the people. All those who see Me ridicule Me; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, “He trusted in the LORD, let Him rescue Him; let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him. Be not far from Me, for trouble is near; for there is none to help. Many bulls have surrounded Me; strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me. They gape at Me with their mouths, like a raging and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all My bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it has melted within Me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws; you have brought Me to the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded Me; the congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet; I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. They divide My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots.” (King David’s Psalm 22. See Matthew 27 and, girls, if your stomach can bear it, this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0-kRtFyiLE  and this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRmrlqA9SM0)

3.   “What about the salvation of people before Jesus?”

My response: The Bible answers this clearly: “So Paul got to his feet in the middle of their council, and began, “Gentlemen of Athens, my own eyes tell me that you are in all respects an extremely religious people. For as I made my way here and looked at your shrines I noticed one altar (one of a number in Athens) on which were inscribed the words, TO GOD THE UNKNOWN. It is this God whom you are worshipping in ignorance that I am here to proclaim to you! God who made the world and all that is in it, being Lord of both Heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by human hands, nor is he ministered to by human hands, as though he had need of anything—seeing that he is the one who gives to all men life and breath and everything else. From one forefather he has created every race of men to live over the face of the whole earth. He has determined the times of their existence and the limits of their habitation, so that they might search for God, in the hope that they might feel for him and find him—yes, even though he is not far from any one of us. Indeed, it is in him that we live and move and have our being. Some of your own poets have endorsed this in the words, ‘For we are indeed his children’. If then we are the children of God, we ought not to imagine God in terms of gold or silver or stone, contrived by human art or imagination. Now while it is true that God has overlooked the days of ignorance he now commands all men everywhere to repent (because of the gift of his son Jesus). For he has fixed a day on which he will judge the whole world in justice by the standard of a man whom he has appointed. That this is so he has guaranteed to all men by raising this man from the dead.” (Acts 17)

And indeed, Jesus himself approached those about whom this anti-Christian speaks in ignorance: “Remember that Christ the just suffered for us the unjust, to bring us to God. That meant the death of his body, but he came to life again in the spirit. It was in the spirit that he went and preached to the imprisoned souls of those who had been disobedient in the days of Noah—the days of God’s great patience during the period of the building of the ark, in which eventually only eight souls were saved in the flood. And Jesus has now entered Heaven and is at God’s right hand, with all angels, authorities and powers subservient to him.” (1 Peter 3)

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KDC501

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Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #154 on: October 11, 2021, 04:23:48 PM »
The Qur'an isn't the only book that says Jesus was not crucified. The Psalms which have the prophecies of the Messiah are filled with many verses saying that the Messiah is not supposed to die but rather God would save him. One such Psalm which Jesus referred to is Psalms 118:17-18 which says "I will not die but live.  The Lord God has chastened me sore but He has not given me over to death."  Psalms are filled with prophecies like this which Jesus himself referred to in the Gospel, and they say that he will not die.

For an in depth look at all of these Psalms and other verses proving that Jesus was not crucified, go to:
https://quranicwarners.org/crucifixion

Or watch a basic summary on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq_QGjgI9eI&t=1s


Jesus is dead. Jesus' soul was taken before the crucifixion. I don't know why this is even a topic. lol. Also you need to do more research on Jewish terms. The word messiah is a COMMON title that has been used for hundreds of years by the Jews before Jesus even existed. For example, Cyrus the Great in the Bible was given this title as well as many Rabbi's before Jesus even existed were given this title as well. Jesus was not THE messiah that the Jews were waiting on based on my studies. He did not fulfil the vast majority of the prophecies in the Bible. One being a military leader and a conqueror during the end of times and bringing peace to the earth. Not to mention his contention with Gog and Magog which is a major sign of the end times and the "messiah".

There are actually two messiah's the jews are waiting on. One is Messiah Ben Joseph and the other is Messiah Ben David. One is clearly mentioned in the Quran as Zulquarnain (the two horned one) or Messiah Ben Joseph. The term two-horned one refers to the tribe of Joseph which is described in the Book of Deuteronomy 33:17 :-

Quote
17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.

 Based on my studies, this "messiah" will appear prior to the end of the world. He is probably one of the last appointed Messengers of God before the ending of the world and the appearance of Gog and Magog (which are both mentioned in the Quran and the Bible to appear prior to the end of the world)

Regards,

Kevin

KDC501

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Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #155 on: October 11, 2021, 05:08:17 PM »
PART 2 of 90 Verses says: Jesus is not God

1.   “There is no truth to the Christian belief that Jesus died for our sins and salvation is only through Jesus. Jesus’ death brings neither atonement from sin”

My Response: As much as the author would like to think it is, this is NOT an argument. A logical argument consists of much more than flat out contradiction or denial. Made famous by the Monty Python sketch (seen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k) , a rational argument is not just “an automatic gainsaying of any statement the another person makes.” It involves correct reasoning and follows formal rules of logic that ultimately aims to connect a series of statements which intend to establish a proposition. All this anti-Christian author has in fact accomplished, notwithstanding his unwarranted self-belief, is a trail of disconnected and subjective assertions, communicating much the same information i.e. none!

Logic, and its inclusion in valid and sound argument, is a skill which, while never mastered (no one is fallible), requires years of practice. As a trained philosopher it’s quite easy to pick out very poor reasoning and this guy is a serial culprit.

What strikes you immediately is that he fails to provide any criteria which would challenge his belief. That is, what evidence would he accept? That he doesn’t leaves him exposed to anything which would evince Jesus did die for our sins, is God’s sole salvatory means and is soteriologically efficacious.

Any universal negative proposition – and his is – is prone to negation by a single counterfactual. After all, if someone claims there are no pins in this room and I find one, his claim is rebutted on that one instantiation of a discovered pin. He can’t just reply and say, “Oh, but not that pin.” Or, worse, “Only if you found more pins than that one.”

And our anti-Christian polemicist is in exactly the same boat. Not only is his jejune assertion a universal claim, it is also at the mercy of any counter-evidence, not matter how weak it may be. After all, he has not stated to what measure or quality a rebuttal has to attain before it repudiates his. All it has to accomplish is to offer up any proof that his claim is false. To this end I present a minimal counter-argument which, as I have logically underscored, by the rules he has laid down, cannot be confuted. Recall that he said there is “no truth”.

a.   Long before Jesus appeared 2000 years ago, God tested Abraham. At 100 years old, before his son Isaac had been born, God had promised Abraham that “your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.” (Genesis 17)
After Isaac was born, God told Abraham to take “your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”
Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”
Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”
“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.
“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”
Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.”
Abraham then “built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
What would normally seem contradictory (i.e. that through Isaac the whole world would be blessed but yet simultaneously God asked Abraham to sacrifice him), Abraham saw past that and expressed total trust that God would fulfill his promise. (The writer of the New Testament book Hebrews quite rightly argues that Abraham resolved to his satisfaction that God would raise Isaac from the dead and thus overcome the apparent paradox.)
God then spoke to Abraham and told him that as a consequence of his faith to God, that he was quite willing to offer up his only son, that Abraham and his rightful heirs will be blessed: ““I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.” (Genesis 22)

b.   True to his word, God brought into the world his Messiah, the true Lamb of God. He was prophesied, in some people’s estimation, over a 1000 times in the Old Testament. Here is one extended prophecy which clearly sets out that the Messiah must serve as a sin sacrifice. (BTW, this is not a Christian motif but also a broad Jewish hermeneutic of this Isaiah passage. Multiple rabbis over the ages have taken this to be a Messianic and sin sacrificial chapter(s)):

“He is despised and rejected by men, a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgressions of My people He was stricken. And they made His grave with the wicked—but with the rich at His death, because He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” (Isaiah 53)
Eight hundred years before Jesus, under the holy inspiration of God, Isaiah wrote this prophecy of the coming Messiah and how he would be a sin offering for us.

c.   In the earliest days of Jesus’ ministry, his cousin John the Baptist was working and saw Jesus passing by. John cried out, “Look, there is the lamb of God who will take away the sins of the world! This is the man I meant when I said, ‘A man comes after me who is always in front of me, for he existed before I was born!’ It is true I have not known him, yet it was to make him known to the people of Israel that I came and baptised people with water.” Then John gave this testimony, “I have seen the Spirit come down like a dove from Heaven and rest upon him. Indeed, it is true that I did not recognise him by myself, but he who sent me to baptise with water told me this: ‘The one on whom you will see the Spirit coming down and resting is the man who baptises with the Holy Spirit!’ Now I have seen this happen and I declare publicly before you all that he is the Son of God! On the following day John was again standing with two of his disciples. He looked straight at Jesus as he walked along, and said, “There is the lamb of God!”” (John’s Gospel, chapter 1)

d.   On numerous occasions Jesus publicly declared himself to be God’s sin sacrifice:” No one has ever been up to Heaven except the Son of Man who came down from Heaven. The Son of Man must be lifted above the heads of men—as Moses lifted up that serpent in the desert—so that any man who believes in him may have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that every one who believes in him shall not be lost, but should have eternal life. You must understand that God has not sent his Son into the world to pass sentence upon it, but to save it—through him. Any man who believes in him is not judged at all. It is the one who will not believe who stands already condemned, because he will not believe in the character of God’s only Son. This is the judgment—that light has entered the world and men have preferred darkness to light because their deeds are evil. Anybody who does wrong hates the light and keeps away from it, for fear his deeds may be exposed. But anybody who is living by the truth will come to the light to make it plain that all he has done has been done through God.” (John 3)

In addition, Jesus stated “Then Jesus said, “That voice came for your sake, not for mine. Now is the time for the judgment of this world to begin, and now will the spirit that rules this world be driven out. As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men to myself.” (He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.)” (John 12)

And “As they went about together in Galilee, Jesus told them, “The Son of Man is going to be handed over to the power of men, and they will kill him. And on the third day he will be raised to life again.” This greatly distressed the disciples.” (Matthew 17)

And “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Mark 10)

2.   “nor is it in any way a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.”

My Response: I’ve already provided several prophetic fulfillments in the previous point. Here are just another few.

a.   “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.” (Zechariah 12)
b.   “But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised by the people. All those who see Me ridicule Me; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, “He trusted in the LORD, let Him rescue Him; let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him. Be not far from Me, for trouble is near; for there is none to help. Many bulls have surrounded Me; strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me. They gape at Me with their mouths, like a raging and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all My bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it has melted within Me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws; you have brought Me to the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded Me; the congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet; I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. They divide My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots.” (King David’s Psalm 22. See Matthew 27 and, girls, if your stomach can bear it, this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0-kRtFyiLE  and this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRmrlqA9SM0)

3.   “What about the salvation of people before Jesus?”

My response: The Bible answers this clearly: “So Paul got to his feet in the middle of their council, and began, “Gentlemen of Athens, my own eyes tell me that you are in all respects an extremely religious people. For as I made my way here and looked at your shrines I noticed one altar (one of a number in Athens) on which were inscribed the words, TO GOD THE UNKNOWN. It is this God whom you are worshipping in ignorance that I am here to proclaim to you! God who made the world and all that is in it, being Lord of both Heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by human hands, nor is he ministered to by human hands, as though he had need of anything—seeing that he is the one who gives to all men life and breath and everything else. From one forefather he has created every race of men to live over the face of the whole earth. He has determined the times of their existence and the limits of their habitation, so that they might search for God, in the hope that they might feel for him and find him—yes, even though he is not far from any one of us. Indeed, it is in him that we live and move and have our being. Some of your own poets have endorsed this in the words, ‘For we are indeed his children’. If then we are the children of God, we ought not to imagine God in terms of gold or silver or stone, contrived by human art or imagination. Now while it is true that God has overlooked the days of ignorance he now commands all men everywhere to repent (because of the gift of his son Jesus). For he has fixed a day on which he will judge the whole world in justice by the standard of a man whom he has appointed. That this is so he has guaranteed to all men by raising this man from the dead.” (Acts 17)

And indeed, Jesus himself approached those about whom this anti-Christian speaks in ignorance: “Remember that Christ the just suffered for us the unjust, to bring us to God. That meant the death of his body, but he came to life again in the spirit. It was in the spirit that he went and preached to the imprisoned souls of those who had been disobedient in the days of Noah—the days of God’s great patience during the period of the building of the ark, in which eventually only eight souls were saved in the flood. And Jesus has now entered Heaven and is at God’s right hand, with all angels, authorities and powers subservient to him.” (1 Peter 3)

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Dear John,

There is only ONE GOD. Abraham did not pray to Jesus, Isaac did not pray to Jesus, Jacob did not pray to Jesus. And Jesus DID NOT PRAY TO HIMSELF. They all prayed to the Creator...Lord Almighty God of All things. The first commandment in the Bible says "You shall have no other gods before me". Despite the contradictions that exist in the Bible that message of strict monotheism exist in the Bible today and it is being followed by the Jews. Any religion that takes you away from worshipping God Almighty the Creator of all things is a cult of satan.

In addition, God has no children, no sons or daughters. If God does not have a wife how can he have children? These are all human traits christianity is trying to associate with God. All pagan in origin. And if Abraham was here on this forum he would agree with me 100%

The 'good' christians that is spoken of in the Quran in a positive light by God are those that believe in all the prophet's including Jesus' and who follow the gospel correctly. They are the ones that worship God and God alone, they do not associate beings with God and would never say that Jesus was the son of God or God himself.

Understanding God is simple. God is ONE, ALL POWERFUL BEING. He has no children, he does not require anything from us and he has control over all things. This is the being the prophet's worshipped. Not Jesus.

Regards,

Kevin

jkhan

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Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #156 on: October 12, 2021, 12:20:02 AM »
I don't hate Muslims. I have very good Muslim friends. However, I do despise Islam as it's the most obvious false religion in the world and because Muhammad is the most obvious false prophet who has ever existed.

How can you have muslim friends while you hate Islam?
I have christian or catholic, budhist, Hindu even Jew Friends mainly in office..  I never hate their religion.. But we always debate while having lunch or tea time or even while travelling.. You can't call one as friend while you mock coupled with hatred in their religion..
There is no reason to hate anybody's  religion.. Coz our friends are not responsible for their religion they are born with it opted... Coz that is their personal choice..
But we all like to research and have some heated conversation based on our own knowledge...  In that case we should not mock and denigrade..  That you have already done..

How can you have muslims as friends while you call their messenger as a liar and you are so much bothered about their Lord and He is also liar..

We don't say that...  We only say what is written in our book..  We respect Jesus and his Lord.. When we see Jesus was not crucified it is not mocking your religion or talking agaisnt your Lord.. But we talk what is written in our book.. We claim what is written  in history which is Quran..

Why despise Islam?  What is wrong in it?  Is it coz Mohamed or is it coz what was revealed to him?

What if what is written in the book is correct while you hate the Quran and its Author...
No christian in my office is against me when I show these verses of no crucifixion of Trinity..
Their only answer is something is obscured, and until we read total Quran we cannot know why it was written so..
But you have read Quran.. But with contempt.. We never read Bible with contempt.. But when we see glaring verses in Bible it quickly reminds us the similar verses in Quran... But association with God is going agaisnt basic of all monotheistic dogma before Jesus.. No other option but to reject.. But we don't hate... Coz it is your religion.. Why to hate ones religion and their prophet or whatever they accept.. For you your way.. For us our way..

I would never claim that I have many Christian friends while I hate their Jesus and their Lord and mock and inside heart full of abhorrence..  How is it possible literally... Nonsensical..
Respect Friends.. That include respect their faith.. Respect what they follow.. If one cannot.. They can't be one's friends

jkhan

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Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #157 on: October 12, 2021, 02:04:24 AM »
Peace everyone...

http://personman.com/6-added-passages

I feel something seriously wrong...  Something that's astounding...
Have you guys read this before...

https://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx

jkhan

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Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #158 on: October 12, 2021, 05:02:09 AM »


Do you have anything to say about this Big boy John?

John

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Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #159 on: October 12, 2021, 02:01:48 PM »
PART 3 of 90 Verses says: Jesus is not God

1.   I’d like to add a comment to my previous post. The idiot/liar who composed the site I am addressing “asked” ‘What about the salvation of people before Jesus?’. In several places in the Bible, God, the true God (in opposition to the Islamic demon that masquerades as the genuine), is ontologically defined as love. Nowhere in the Koran is God defined in such a manner. Given Jesus being the exact image of God, I am perfectly assured that God is far more loving than we can ever imagine. However, that can’t be said regarding the dark and immoral god of the Koran, the demon Muslims worship. This god goes out of his way to deceive and torture people, and, apparently, enjoys it. Half the Koran is a litany of what tortures the rejected will suffer for rejecting your false prophet Muhammad.

The more relevant question is this: In rejecting Jesus while you are alive today, as you Muslims have done and refuse to repent of this sin, what will your excuse be to Jesus after you die?

2.   “Christians claim that in the birth of Jesus, there occurred the miracle of the incarnation of God in the form of a human being. To say that God became truly a human being invites a number of questions. Let us ask the following about the man-God Jesus. What happened to his foreskin after his circumcision (Luke 2:21)?” Did it ascend to heaven, or did it decompose as with any human piece of flesh? During his lifetime what happened to his hair, nails, and blood shed from wounds? Did the cells of his body die as in ordinary human beings? If his body did not function in a truly human way, he could not be truly human as well as truly God. Yet, if his body functioned exactly in a human way, this would nullify any claim to divinity. It would be impossible for any part of God, even if incarnate, to decompose in any way and still be considered God.”

My response: Again, the deplorable ignorance of some fairly basic Christian theology is on open display here. If only this anti-Christian had read the Bible and/or asked knowledgeable Christians about the subject he would not have made such an embarrassing spectacle of himself.

John’s Gospel tells us that “At the beginning God expressed himself. That personal expression, that word, was with God, and was God, and he existed with God from the beginning. All creation took place through him, and none took place without him. In him appeared life and this life was the light of mankind. The light still shines in the darkness and the darkness has never put it out…He came into the world—the world he had created—and the world failed to recognise him…So the word of God became a human being and lived among us. We saw his splendour”. (John 1)

Christians have always held that God became Man, the perfect Man. This Man did not lose his divinity. This can be easily understood by his innumerable claims to being God, contrary to the uninformed, biased thought bubbles of Muslims. Jesus claimed that he was the final judge of men, was due the same honour as God the Father, had the power and authority to raise the dead, was the source of all life, that his name was YHWH, that the Father and he did not differ in deed or thought, was the exact image of God, was Lord of the Sabbath, had power over all of nature, that only through him and no other human was salvation possible, that all Old Testament prophecy was about him, that he was eternal and had never begun to exist, was sinless and thus perfect, and was fully God.

But, he also claimed to be fully man. He ate, slept, became tired, drank alcohol, walked, defecated…as all men do. The key is, the very point that Muslims refuse to understand, is that God took on flesh, was clothed in a physical body.

Now of course, Muslims will obviously object, but then Muslims are putting their own limits on God, telling God what he can or cannot do. How blasphemous.

Muslims a priori reject Jesus being God. They have a preconceive that He cannot be God irrespective of anything Jesus himself has claimed and demonstrated. The question that no Muslim honestly considers is this: A person who claims that he is the final judge of men, is due the same honour as God the Father, has the power and authority to raise the dead, is the source of all life, that his name is YHWH, that the Father and he do not differ in deed or thought, is the exact image of God, is Lord of the Sabbath, has power over all of nature, that only through him and no other being is salvation possible, that all Old Testament prophecy is about him, that he is eternal and has never begun to exist, is sinless and thus perfect, and said that “if you have seen me, you’ve seen the Father”, CANNOT be just human.

Jesus demands you take him on his own claims and merits, not the unwarranted terms someone ascribes to him. Any fool can invent an equally foolish story from their own craven imagination about Jesus, but it takes a really honest and brave man to take Jesus as he has himself revealed about himself. Jesus can’t be dismissed with hand waving and certainly not explained away by citing a book written 600 years after the events.

If you really think foreskins, nails, hair and the like somehow finish off Christianity then you really are a deluded churl.

3.   The everlasting, one God, in whole or in part, does not die, disintegrate, or decompose: ‘For I the Lord do not change.’ (Malachi 3:6)

My response: Here’s more evidence that the site’s owner is either very stupid, ignorant or an outright liar. Again, he’s ripped the verse from its context and only the most ignoble and obtuse would allow a verse lifted from its surrounds to be regarded as a sound argument.

What’s ironic here is that this chapter declares the Messiah to be God. In the opening stanza God declares through the prophet Malachi that the messenger (that is, John the Baptist) “will prepare the way before me, and the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to his temple, the Messenger of the covenant.” God never returned to the Temple after its first destruction several centuries before Jesus; but Jesus did come to the Temple and in Malachi, God, “me” and the “Messenger of the Covenant” are all the same Being.

As for the 6th verse, the idiot who quoted Malachi has completely misunderstood or misrepresented the passage, something to be expected if you separate a verse from its surroundings. Here’s what Malachi was saying. The Jews has rejected God, had taken up pagan and occult practices (v. 5), but because the LORD had made a promise to Jacob (v.6), and thus to Abraham and Isaac, he would not relent on that agreement and was imploring the Jews to return to him (v. 7). The bowdlerised verse the idiot relied on actually claims that God will not destroy Israel, will stick to his promise and thus will not change.

Go and read the passage for yourself and you’ll see that the guy is either seriously intellectually challenged or stealing and distorting God’s words.

4.   “Did Jesus’ flesh dwell in safety after his death?”

My response: Again, if this moron had actually read the Bible he’d know the answer, but it’s clear he wants to deceive Muslims.

Jesus said this: “I am the good shepherd, and I know those that are mine and my sheep know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father. And I am giving my life for the sake of the sheep. And I have other sheep who do not belong to this fold. I must lead these also, and they will hear my voice. So there will be one flock and one shepherd. This is the reason why the Father loves me—that I lay down my life, and I lay it down to take it up again! No one is taking it from me, but I lay it down of my own free will. I have the power to lay it down and I have the power to take it up again.” (John 10)

Three days after his crucifixion, the tomb where he was laid was opened and there was no body. But let’s backtrack a few hours: “When the Sabbath was over, just as the first day of the week was dawning Mary from Magdala and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. At that moment there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from Heaven, went forward and rolled back the stone and took his seat upon it. His appearance was dazzling like lightning and his clothes were white as snow. The guards shook with terror at the sight of him and collapsed like dead men. But the angel spoke to the women, “Do not be afraid. I know that you are looking for Jesus who was crucified. He is not here—he is risen, just as he said he would. Come and look at the place where he was lying. Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead. And, listen, he goes before you into Galilee! You will see him there! Now I have told you my message.” (Matthew 28)

John, a witness to this most extraordinary event (ok, just maybe the creation of the universe from nothing might edge the resurrection out!), recorded the following: “But on the first day of the week, Mary of Magdala arrived at the tomb, very early in the morning, while it was still dark, and noticed that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. At this she ran, found Simon Peter and the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and told them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb and we don’t know where they have put him.” Peter and the other disciple set off at once for the tomb, the two of them running together. The other disciple ran faster than Peter and was the first to arrive at the tomb. He stooped and looked inside and noticed the linen cloths lying there but did not go in himself. Hard on his heels came Simon Peter and went straight into the tomb. He noticed that the linen cloths were lying there, and that the handkerchief, which had been round Jesus’s head, was not lying with the linen cloths but was rolled up by itself, a little way apart. Then the other disciple, who was the first to arrive at the tomb, came inside as well, saw what had happened and believed. (They did not yet understand the scripture which said that he must rise from the dead.) So the disciples went back again to their homes.” (John 20)

So what happened a few days later? Hold onto your seats, ladies, and read and learn: “In the evening of that first day of the week, the disciples had met together with the doors locked for fear of the Jews. Jesus came and stood right in the middle of them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he showed them his hands and his side, and when they saw the Lord the disciples were overjoyed. Jesus said to them again, “Yes, peace be with you! Just as the Father sent me, so I am now going to send you.”

And then he breathed upon them and said, “Receive holy spirit. If you forgive any men’s sins, they are forgiven, and if you hold them unforgiven, they are unforgiven.”

But one of the twelve, Thomas (called the Twin), was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples kept on telling him, “We have seen the Lord”, but he replied, “Unless I see in his own hands the mark of the nails, and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will never believe!”

Just over a week later, the disciples were indoors again and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood in the middle of them and said, “Peace be with you!”

Then he said to Thomas, “Put your fingers here—look, here are my hands. Take my hand and put it in my side. You must not doubt, but believe.”

And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” [The Greek is even clearer, which literally translated says that 'To Jesus, Thomas says, The Lord of me and THE GOD of me.

“Is it because you have seen me that you believe?” Jesus said to him. “Happy are those who have never seen me and yet have believed!” (John 20)

Jesus, as he said he would, resurrected fully in the flesh because “I have the power to lay it down and I have the power to take it up again.”

HE OVERCAME DEATH AND PROVED IT BY TAKING HIS BODY BACK.

Muslims deny and scoff at that historical fact and so is DEMONIC. John, Jesus’ most loved disciple, addresses this rejection very succinctly: “Don’t trust every spirit, dear friends of mine, but test them to discover whether they come from God or not. For the world is full of false prophets. You can test them in this simple way: every spirit that acknowledges the fact that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, comes from God, but the spirit which denies Jesus has come in the flesh does not come from God. The latter comes from the anti-christ, which you were warned would come and which is already in the world.” (1 John 4)

Islam denies Jesus was crucified and physically rose from the dead. It, therefore, is not a religion from the true God, the God of the Bible. It's from that other fellow.