Author Topic: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"  (Read 7429 times)

John

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 323
  • Karma +0/-6
Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #120 on: September 28, 2021, 04:07:02 PM »
Johni...

Sign of a loser... Trying with an utmost effort to change the scenario... Is  English the issue now or false god,Jesus?  :rotfl: :rotfl:

Don't worry man... I rejected doesn't mean others also would reject your $75 /hour offer.. Keep begging.  :rotfl:

Assumptions....  :rotfl: Now who told you that I got a degree from a Pakistani university... Lol
You only know to speculate similar to your John pappa...  :rotfl:

Duped by Satan

Man well note...  I am not someone like you who boast on his qualifications.. I am not shameless like you... Let that be with you...

It's not strange that you find fault in my English, coz you are  a person for whome God's verses and grammar are erroneous ... So who am I?


You can't withdraw what you play with... Coz you are playing with the God who created you and to Him your return

Again, English: Fail
Logic and sense: Fail.
Knowledge of subject: Fail

John

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 323
  • Karma +0/-6
Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #121 on: September 28, 2021, 04:14:29 PM »
It is very manifest that you are not someone who is English or whose mother toung is English... that...

Man Japanese are hardly speaking English...

So you think only west is good at knowledge   

As I said, English: Fail.

OK, here's a test for you. Look around your room and tell me something there that a Muslim has invented which changed the modern world for the good.

As I said previously, I don't see many Westerners applying to attend Karachi University or Cairo University. But I do see heaps of Muslims coming to the West to study engineering etc. I wonder why that is so?

I don't see too many Westerners wanting to take up citizenship in Pakistan or Morocco...but I see heaps wanting to obtain US, Canadian, German, Australian...citizenship. I wonder why that is so? Is it because those latter countries have a lower standard of living and a far less secure than the former?

John

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 323
  • Karma +0/-6
Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #122 on: September 28, 2021, 04:21:45 PM »
https://www.npr.org/2014/04/07/300246095/if-jesus-never-called-himself-god-how-did-he-become-one

above link is very interesting and it makes real sense, but it depends on how one approach to the article.,.. I don't think John can handle this because you are filled with hatred...


read below link as well..

https://www.staybiblical.com/jesus-is-not-god/

so much to ponder in below link..

https://www.thedeenshow.com/90-verses-that-say-jesus-is-not-god-nor-the-literal-son-of-god/

I'll get to your links hopefully later today. However, answer me honestly: have you read ANY of Ehrman's books?

You seem to grasp onto anything which "proves" your argument. That's not how excellent scholarship works. Before I submit a paper for publication I research and read extensively and broadly, analyse BOTH sides of the case and then and ONLY then do I draw my conclusion. You serially fail to do that and as a consequence continually commit the fallacy of confirmation bias. That makes your argument mere propaganda.

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1780
  • Karma +5/-4
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #123 on: September 28, 2021, 05:52:01 PM »
I'll get to your links hopefully later today. However, answer me honestly: have you read ANY of Ehrman's books?

You seem to grasp onto anything which "proves" your argument. That's not how excellent scholarship works. Before I submit a paper for publication I research and read extensively and broadly, analyse BOTH sides of the case and then and ONLY then do I draw my conclusion. You serially fail to do that and as a consequence continually commit the fallacy of confirmation bias. That makes your argument mere propaganda.

Oh really... We can see how you extensively and broadly you have analyzed quran.. Sheer loser..

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1780
  • Karma +5/-4
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #124 on: September 28, 2021, 06:02:48 PM »
As I said, English: Fail.

OK, here's a test for you. Look around your room and tell me something there that a Muslim has invented which changed the modern world for the good.

As I said previously, I don't see many Westerners applying to attend Karachi University or Cairo University. But I do see heaps of Muslims coming to the West to study engineering etc. I wonder why that is so?

I don't see too many Westerners wanting to take up citizenship in Pakistan or Morocco...but I see heaps wanting to obtain US, Canadian, German, Australian...citizenship. I wonder why that is so? Is it because those latter countries have a lower standard of living and a far less secure than the former?

Real westerners are Mayans.. Lol..
You know why these subcontinent and some other nations people heading to west.. Coz they want to revenge..  Don't worry.. I mean.. Once upon a time the Englishmen and all those Dutch, Portuguese etc looted these nations brutally for centuries while they were rich in knowledge and wealth.. They came to east in the past.. We go to west now.. Tit for tat.. Isn't west full of Asians and Africans now?

Anyway.. I never packed my back bag to west.. And never will for education...  Our nation is 97% literate.. Not like most of the idiots living in west..

Chinese are more knowledgeable than any other.. In the past as well now..  :rotfl:

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1780
  • Karma +5/-4
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #125 on: September 28, 2021, 08:37:05 PM »
Peace everyone..

I know some are bit lazy to open link and read.. So I did copy and paste...

John read na :rotfl:


90 Verses That Say: Jesus is Not God Nor the Literal Son of God
Error loading media: File could not be played
 
229756 views Download HI / LO / MP3
90 Verses says: Jesus is not God

Compiled by Adenino Otari

All four Gospels record Jesus as saying, “Blessed are the peace-makers; they will be called sons of God.”

The word ‘son’ cannot be accepted literally because in the Bible, God apparently addresses many of his chosen servants as ‘son’ and ‘sons.’ The Hebrews believed God is One, and had neither wife nor children in any literal sense. Therefore, it is obvious the expression ‘son of God’ merely meant ‘Servant of God’; one who, because of faithful service, was close and dear to God as a son is to his father.

Christians who came from a Greek or Roman background, later misused this term. In their heritage, ‘son of God’ signified an incarnation of a god or someone born of a physical union between male and female gods. This can be seen in Acts 14: 11-13, where we read that when Paul and Barnabas preached in a city of Turkey, pagans claimed they were gods incarnate. They called Barnabas the Roman god Zeus, and Paul the Roman god Hermes.

Furthermore, the New Testament Greek word translated as ‘son’ are ‘pias’ and ‘paida’ which mean ‘servant,’ or ‘son in the sense of servant.’ These are translated to ‘son’ in reference to Jesus and ‘servant’ in reference to all others in some translations of the Bible. So, consistent with other verses, Jesus was merely saying that he is God’s servant.

Additional problems with Trinity

To a christian, God had to take human form to understand temptation and human suffering, but the concept is not based on any clear words of Jesus. In contrast, God does not need to be tempted and suffer in order to be able to understand and forgive man’s sins, for He is the all knowing Creator of man. This is expressed in the verse:

‘And the Lord said: ‘I have surely seen the affliction of My people that are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry because of their taskmasters; for I know their pains.’ (Exodus 3:7)

God forgave sin before Jesus’ appearance, and He continues to forgive without any assistance. When a believer sins, he may come before God in sincere repentance to receive forgiveness. Indeed, the offer to humble oneself before God and be saved is made to all humankind.

‘And there is no God else beside Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside Me. Look to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.’ (Isaiah 45:21-22, Jonah 3:5-10)

Biblically, people can receive forgiveness of sins through sincere repentance sought directly from God. This is true at all times and in all places. There has never been a need for the so-called inter cessionary role Jesus plays in attaining atonement. The facts speak for themselves. There is no truth to the Christian belief that Jesus died for our sins and salvation is only through Jesus. What about the salvation of people before Jesus? Jesus’ death brings neither atonement from sin, nor is it in any way a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

Christians claim that in the birth of Jesus, there occurred the miracle of the incarnation of God in the form of a human being. To say that God became truly a human being invites a number of questions. Let us ask the following about the man-God Jesus. What happened to his foreskin after his circumcision (Luke 2:21)?

Did it ascend to heaven, or did it decompose as with any human piece of flesh? During his lifetime what happened to his hair, nails, and blood shed from wounds? Did the cells of his body die as in ordinary human beings? If his body did not function in a truly human way, he could not be truly human as well as truly God. Yet, if his body functioned exactly in a human way, this would nullify any claim to divinity. It would be impossible for any part of God, even if incarnate, to decompose in any way and still be considered God. The everlasting, one God, in whole or in part, does not die, disintegrate, or decompose: ‘For I the Lord do not change.’ (Malachi 3:6)

Did Jesus’ flesh dwell in safety after his death?

Unless Jesus’ body never underwent ‘decay’ during his lifetime he could not be God, but if it did not undergo ‘decay’ then he was not truly human.

Bible says that God is not man

‘God is not a man’ (Numbers 23:19)

‘For I am God, and not man’ (Hosea 11:9)

Jesus is called a man many times in the Bible

‘a man who has told you the truth’ (John 8:40)

‘Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)

‘He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom He has appointed’ (Acts 17:31)

‘the man Christ Jesus’ (Tim. 2:5)

The Bible says that God is not a son of man

‘God is not a man nor a son of man’ (Numbers 23:19)

The Bible often calls Jesus ‘a son of man’ or ‘the son of man.’

‘so will the son of man be’ (Matthew 12:40)

‘For the son of man is going to come’ (Matthew 16:27)

‘until they see the son of man coming in His kingdom.’ (Matthew 28)

‘But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority’ (Mark 2:10)

‘because he is the son of man’ (John 5:27)

In the Hebrew scriptures, the ‘son of man’ is also used many times speaking of people (Job 25:6; Psalm 80:17; 144:3; Ezekiel 2:1; 2:3; 2:6-8; 3:1-3).Since God would not contradict Himself by first saying He is not the son of a man, then becoming a human being who was called ‘the son of man’, he would not have done so. Remember God is not the author of confusion. Also, human beings, including Jesus, are called ‘son of man’ specifically to distinguish them from God, who is not a ‘son of man’ according to the Bible.

The Bible says that Jesus denied he is God

Jesus spoke to a man who had called him ‘good,’ asking him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.’ (Luke 18:19)

And he said to him, ‘Why are you asking me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.’ (Matthew 19:17)

Jesus did not teach people that he was God

If Jesus had been telling people that he was God, he would have complimented the man. Instead, Jesus rebuked him, denying he was good, that is, Jesus denied he was God.

The Bible says that God is greater than Jesus

‘My Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28)

‘My father is greater than all.’ (John 10:29)

Jesus can not be God if God is greater than him. The Christian belief that the Father and son are equal is in direct contrast to the clear words from Jesus.

Jesus never instructed his disciples to worship him

‘When you pray, say Our Father which art in heaven.’ (Luke 11:2)

‘In that day, you shall ask me nothing. Whatsoever you ask of the Father in my name.’ (John 16:23)

‘The hour cometh and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him.’ (John 4:23)

If Jesus was God, he would have sought worship for himself

Since he didn’t, instead he sought worship for God in the heavens, therefore, he was not God.

Jesus worshipped the only true God

‘that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.’ (John 17:3)

‘he continued all night in prayer to God.’ (Luke 6:12)

‘Just as the son of man did not come to be served, but to serve’ (Matthew 20:28)

How did Jesus pray to God?

‘he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father’ (Matthew 26:39)

‘During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.’ (Hebrews 5:7)

Who was Jesus praying to when he fell on his face?

Was Jesus crying in tears to himself pleading to be saved from death? No man, sane or insane, prays to himself! Surely the answer must be a resounding ‘No.’ Jesus was praying to ‘the only true God.’ Jesus was the servant of the One Who sent him. Can there be a clearer proof that Jesus was not God?

The Quran confirms that Jesus called for the worship of the Only True God:

“It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.” (Quran 3:51)

Disciples did not believe Jesus was God

The Acts of the Apostles in the Bible details the activity of the disciples over a period of thirty years after Jesus was raised to heaven. Throughout this period, they never referred to Jesus as God. For instance Peter stood up with the eleven disciples and addressed a crowd saying:

‘Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)

For Peter, Jesus was a servant of God (Confirmed In Matthew 12:18)

‘The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.’ (Acts 3:13)

‘God raised up his servant’ (Acts 3:26)

When faced by opposition from the authorities, Peter said

‘We must obey God rather than men! The God of our fathers raised Jesus’ (Acts 5:29-30)

The disciples prayed to God just as they were commanded by Jesus in Luke 11:2, and considered Jesus to be God’s servant.

‘they raised their voices together in prayer to God. ‘Sovereign Lord,’ they said, ‘you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.’ (Acts 4:24)

‘your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.’ (Acts 4:27)

‘of Your holy servant Jesus.’ (Acts 4:30)

‘I am indeed a servant of God.’ (Quran 19:30)

The Bible says that Jesus was God’s servant

‘Behold, My servant, whom I have chosen, in whom My soul is well pleased.’ (Matt 12:18) Since Jesus is God’s servant, Jesus can not be God.

The Bible says that Jesus could not do anything by himself

‘The son can do nothing by himself; he can only do what he sees his Father doing.’ (John 5:19)

‘I can of mine own self do nothing.’ (John 5:30)

The Bible says that Jesus did not consider himself equal with God

and that God performed miracles through Jesus & Jesus was limited in what he could do:

‘But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.’ (Matt. 9:8)

‘a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst.’ (Acts 2:22)

‘he went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.’ (Acts 10:38)

If Christ was God, the Bible would simply say that Jesus did the miracles himself without making reference to God. The fact that it was God supplying the power for the miracles shows that God is greater than Jesus.

Also, Jesus was limited in performing miracles

One time when Jesus tried to heal a blind man, the man was not healed after the first attempt, and Jesus had to try a second time (Mark 8:22-26).

Once a woman was healed of her incurable bleeding. The woman came up behind him and touched his cloak, and she was immediately healed. But Jesus had no idea who touched him:

‘At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, ‘Who touched my clothes?’ (Mark 5:30)

‘He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.’ (Mark 6:5)

Quite obviously, someone with such limitations can not be God. The power of miracles was not within Jesus.

The Bible says that at times of weakness angels strengthened Jesus

God ,however, does not need to be strengthened. Human need to be strengthened; God does not because God is All-Powerful. If Jesus had to be strengthened, he must not be God.

‘An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him – in the garden of Gethsemane’ (Luke 22:43)

‘Then the devil left him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him’ (Mark. 1:13)

‘And he was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to him.’ (Mark 1:13)

The Bible says that Jesus wanted God’s will to be done

‘not my will but Yours be done.’ (Luke 22:42)

‘I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.’ (John 5:30)

‘For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent me.’ (John 6:38)

Are some members of the coequal Trinity subservient, and less than equal, to other members? Even though they have different wills (‘I do not seek my own will’), do they obey without question the others’ commands (‘the will of Him who sent me’)? Jesus admits to subordinating his own distinct will, yet according to the Trinitarian doctrine they should all have the same will. Should one of the triune partners have to forgo his own will in favor of the will of another member of the Trinity? Should not they all have the exact same will?

The Bible says Jesus regarded himself and God as two

‘I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father.’ (John 8:17-18:)

‘Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.’ (John 14:1)

If Jesus was God, He would have not have regarded God’s testimony as separate from his own.

The Bible says that Jesus is subordinate to God

‘Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.’ (1 Corinthians 11:3)

‘When he has done this, then the son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.’ (1 Corinthians 15:28)

Bible says that Jesus grew in wisdom & learning

But God is All Wise & does not need to learn: Jesus grew in wisdom, but God is all wise ‘Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.’ (Psalms 147:5)

‘And Jesus increased in wisdom.’ (Luke 2:52)

God does not need to learn, but Jesus learned: ‘Although he was a son, he learned obedience’ (Heb. 5:8)

Jesus had limited knowledge, but god’s knowledge is infinite. Since Jesus did not know, he was not all-knowing, and therefore, he cannot be the God whose knowledge is all-encompassing.

‘No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the Father.’ (Mark 13:32)

Bible says that Jesus was tempted, but God cannot be tempted

’tempted in every way – just as we are’ (Heb. 4:15)

‘for God cannot be tempted by evil’ (James 1:13)

Since God can not be tempted, but Jesus was, therefore, Jesus was not God.

Bible says that Jesus’ teachings were from God, not from himself

‘So Jesus answered them and said, ‘My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me.’ (John 7:16)

Jesus could not have said this if he were God because the doctrine would have been his.

Bible says that Jesus died, but God cannot die

The Bible teaches that Jesus died. God cannot die. Romans 1:23 and other verses say that God is immortal. Immortal means, ‘not subject to death.’ This term applies only to God.

Bible says that Jesus lived because of God

‘I live because of the Father.’ (John 6:57)

Jesus cannot be God because he depended on God for his own existence.

Bible says that Jesus’ powers were given to him

‘All power is given unto me.’ (Matt 28:18)

God is all-powerful, no one gives God His powers, otherwise He would not be God because He would be weak. Therefore, Jesus could not be God.

Bible says that Jesus was taught & commanded by God

‘As my Father hath taught me, I speak these things,’ (John 8:28)

‘The Father, who sent me, he gave me a commandment.’ (John 12:49)

‘I have kept my Father’s commandments.’ (John 15:10)

No one can teach God, otherwise God cannot be All-Knowing and would owe His teacher. Since Jesus was taught and commanded by God, Jesus cannot be God himself. The teacher and the student, the commander and the commanded are not one.

Bible says that God made Jesus ‘Lord’!

‘God has made this Jesus both Lord and Christ.’ (Acts 2:36)

‘Lord’ is used in many ways in the Bible, and others beside God and Jesus are called ‘Lord.’ For example:

1) property owners (Matt. 20:8)

2) heads of households (Mark 13:35)

3) slave owners (Matt. 10:24)

4) husbands (1 Pet. 3:6)

5) a son called his father Lord (Matt. 21:30)

6) the Roman Emperor was called Lord (Acts 25:26)

7) Roman authorities were called Lord (Matt. 27:63)

‘Lord’ is not the same as ‘God.’ ‘Lord’ (the Greek word is kurios) is a masculine title of respect and nobility used many times in the Bible. If Jesus was God, then for the Bible to say he was ‘made’ Lord would make no sense.

Bible says that Jesus was lower than angels

‘But we do see him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus.’ (Hebrews 2:9)

God, the Creator of angels, can not be lower than His own creation, but Jesus was. Therefore, Jesus was not God.

Bible says that Jesus called the Father ‘my God’

‘My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?’ (Matt. 27:46)

‘I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.’ (John 20:17)

‘the temple of my God the name of my God the city of my God comes down out of heaven from my God.’ (Rev. 3:12)

Jesus did not think of himself as God, instead Jesus’ God is the same as ours.

Bible says that God cannot be seen

But Jesus was seen by others ‘no man has seen God at any time.’ (John 1:18)

Bible says twice that Jesus was accused of being God

But he denied it: According to the Bible, on only two instances the Jews opposed Jesus on the basis that he pretended to be God or equal with God. Had Jesus, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, claimed to be God, he is likely to have been opposed on this basis more frequently.

Because in these two instances, when charged, in the one case, with making himself God, and in the other, with making himself equal with God, he denied the charges. In reply to the charge of being an equal with God, he says immediately:

‘The son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do’; and directly after ‘I can of mine own self do nothing.’ (John 5:19, 30)

In answer to the charge of making himself God, he appeals to the Jews in substance thus: Your own Scriptures call Moses a god, and your magistrates gods; I am surely not inferior to them, yet I did not call myself God, but only the ‘son’ of God (John 10:34-36).

This is unlikely to have been Jesus’ actual response. Hastings in ‘The Dictionary of the Bible’ says, ‘Whether Jesus used it of himself is doubtful.’ Grolier’s encyclopedia, under the heading ‘Jesus Christ,’ says, ‘it is uncertain whether the Father/Son language (Mark 18:32; Matt. 11:25-27 Par.; John Passim) goes back to Jesus himself.’ A University of Richmond professor, Dr. Robert Alley, after considerable research into newly found ancient documents concludes that:

‘The (Biblical) passages where Jesus talks about the Son of God are later additions. what the church said about him. Such a claim of deity for himself would not have been consistent with his entire lifestyle as we can reconstruct. For the first three decades after Jesus’ death Christianity continued as a sect within Judaism. The first three decades of the existence of the church were within the synagogue. That would have been beyond belief if they (the followers) had boldly proclaimed the deity of Jesus.’

Assuming Jesus did say that he was ‘son’ of God. What did it mean? We first need to know the language of his people, the language of the Jews to whom he was speaking.

The Bible says God had many ‘sons’

First, most people think there are no other verses that contradict or give equal divine sonship to other persons in the Old or New Testament.

For Jesus to be called son of God, does not make him a true son of God, other wise Adam, Jacob, Ephraim and many more should also be considered as been sons of God as such they should be worshiped too according to such method.

Adam: ‘Adam, which was the son of God.’ (Luke 3:38)

Jacob is God’s son and firstborn: ‘Israel is my son, even my firstborn.’ (Exodus 4:22)

Solomon: ‘I will be his father, and he shall be my son.’ (2 Samuel 7:13-14)

Ephraim: ‘for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.’ (Jeremiah 31:9)

Is God’s firstborn, common people are called the sons of God: ‘Ye are the children of the Lord your God’ (Deuteronomy 14:1)



Other Show

190 views
Powerful Ruqyah with Quran Stories – With Qaida Nuraniyah Mohammad Ar-Ra’ee


1754 views
Mohammad Hijab Almost Dies – lessons from the NEAR DEATH of Mohammad Hijab


174 views
How a Hafiz of Quran ended up in the night club


161 views
An Innocent Muslim shows Forgiveness after being tortured in Afghanistan/Guantanamo Bay for 9/11


1627 views
Angelina Jolie concerns for Muslim Women in Afghanistan Forgets Frances Attack on Muslim Women


372 views
From The New Age Movement to ISLAM

Subscribe to Podcast
Apple Podcasts
Google Podcasts
Android
by Email
RSS
Subscribe
Email

Subscribe

John

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 323
  • Karma +0/-6
Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #126 on: September 29, 2021, 04:31:42 PM »
https://www.npr.org/2014/04/07/300246095/if-jesus-never-called-himself-god-how-did-he-become-one

above link is very interesting and it makes real sense, but it depends on how one approach to the article.,.. I don't think John can handle this because you are filled with hatred...


I’ll attempt to respond to this article in an orderly fashion. I will, however, ignore the trivial, concentrating on the significant arguments Ehrman makes.

1.   “You do find Jesus calling himself God in the Gospel of John, or the last Gospel. Jesus says things like, "Before Abraham was, I am." And, "I and the Father are one," and, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." These are all statements you find only in the Gospel of John, and that's striking because we have earlier gospels and we have the writings of Paul, and in none of them is there any indication that Jesus said such things. I think it's completely implausible that Matthew, Mark and Luke would not mention that Jesus called himself God if that's what he was declaring about himself.”

My response: (i) This is an extremely poor and unsophisticated argument and, if anything, one from a deafening silence. However, it’s also almost totally inaccurate and underplays the significance of what it does admit. But first I need to underscore its other outstanding fallacy, namely it begs the question, namely, it makes the claim that John’s Gospel is the sole writer claiming Jesus is God by taking this up as the default position without any analysis of the three Synoptic Gospels. It offers no evidence that this is in fact true, which is what question begging one’s argument entails. In other words, Ehrman’s position is this: John’s Gospel is the only Gospel which contains Jesus’ statements that he is God because this is the only Gospel which has any statements where Jesus declared himself to be God. (That John’s is the only Gospel with these claims to divinity by Jesus is false, but this will be addressed subsequently.)

(ii) Ehrman short-changes John’s record of the life of Christ because there are more than these three statements where he unambiguously declares himself God. Furthermore, the three he gives expurgates the important background to these statements which, again, unequivocally evince Jesus saw himself as God.

I’ll now address one-by-one the three cited Johannine verses.

a.   “Before Abraham, I am.” Taken by itself this proves little. Taken together with, not only the immediate setting of 2,000 years ago, the reference Jesus was drawing our attention to where Moses, 3,500 years ago, met and spoke to the Creator, this is devastating proof that Jesus had declared himself to be God. Even his enemies, the Jewish religious and political hierarchy, had no doubts that that was what he was declaring. Here’s the preceding drama, witnessed by John in chapter 8 of his Gospel record:

“Later, Jesus spoke to the Jewish leaders again and said, “I am going away and you will try to find me, but you will die in your sins. You cannot come where I am going.”
This made the Jews say, “Is he going to kill himself, then? Is that why he says, “You cannot come where I am going’?”
“The difference between us,” Jesus said to them, “is that you come from below and I am from above. You belong to this world but I do not. That is why I told you will die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am who I am, you will die in your sins.”
Then they said, “Who are you?”
“I am what I have told you I was from the beginning,” replied Jesus. “There is much in you that I could speak about and condemn. But he who sent me is true and I am only speaking to this world what I myself have heard from him.”
They did not realise that he was talking to them about the Father. So Jesus resumed, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will realise that I am who I say I am, and that I do nothing on my own authority but speak simply as my Father has taught me. The one who sent me is with me now: the Father has never left me alone for I always do what pleases him.” And even while he said these words, many people believed in him.
So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, “If you are faithful to what I have said, you are truly my disciples. And you will know the truth and the truth will set you free!”
“But we are descendants of Abraham,” they replied, “and we have never in our lives been any man’s slaves. How can you say to us, ‘You will be set free’?”
Jesus returned, “Believe me when I tell you that every man who commits sin is a slave. For a slave is no permanent part of a household, but a son is. If the Son, then, sets you free, you are really free! I know that you are descended from Abraham, but some of you are looking for a way to kill me because you can’t bear my words. I am telling you what I have seen in the presence of my Father, and you are doing what you have seen in the presence of your father.”
“Our father is Abraham!” they retorted.
“If you were the children of Abraham, you would do the sort of things Abraham did. But in fact, at this moment, you are looking for a way to kill me, simply because I am a man who has told you the truth that I have heard from God. Abraham would never have done that. No, you are doing your father’s work.”
“We are not illegitimate!” they retorted. “We have one Father—God.”
“If God were really your Father,” replied Jesus, “you would have loved me. For I came from God, and I am here. I did not come of my own accord—he sent me, and I am here. Why do you not understand my words? It is because you cannot hear what I am really saying. Your father is the devil, and what you are wanting to do is what your father longs to do. He always was a murderer, and has never dealt with the truth, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”
“How right we are,” retorted the Jews, “in calling you a Samaritan, and mad at that!”
“No,” replied Jesus, “I am not mad. I am honouring my Father and you are trying to dishonour me. But I am not concerned with my own glory: there is one whose concern it is, and he is the true judge. Believe me when I tell you that if anybody accepts my words, he will never see death at all.”
“Now we know that you’re mad,” replied the Jews. “Why, Abraham died and the prophets, too, and yet you say, ‘If a man accepts my words, he will never experience death!’ Are you greater than our father, Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets—who are you making yourself out to be?
“If I were trying to glorify myself,” returned Jesus, “such glory would be worthless. But it is my Father who glorifies me, the very one whom you say is your God—though you have never known him. But I know him, and if I said I did not know him, I should be as much a liar as you are! But I do know him and I am faithful to what he says. As for your father, Abraham, his great joy was that he would see my coming. Now he has seen it and he is overjoyed.”
“Look,” said the Jews to him, “you are not fifty yet, and has Abraham seen you?”
“I tell you in solemn truth,” returned Jesus, “before there was an Abraham, I AM!”
At this, they picked up stones to hurl at him, but Jesus disappeared and made his way out of the Temple.”

Now, why would the Jews want to kill him for being completely insane and saying before Abraham existed he, Jesus, existed? Because they accused him of blasphemy, the penalty being death by stoning. And here’s why.

We have to return to Torah and the second book of Moses, Exodus. The background is God spoke to Moses from out of the burning bush and said he was to go to Pharoah and demand that the Israelites be allowed to leave Egypt. Moses baulked at the idea and asked God who shall I say has sent me. This is what transpired: “And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And God said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’” (Exodus 3:14-15)

Here is God perspicuously stating that God and only God can have the name I AM, and that that name is his forever. No mere creature can adopt it. Roll the clock forward 1,500 years to Jesus and here he is taking the same name. He is claiming to be God and, given the grammar of the Hebrew name, means he is claiming that he was never created but is eternal. The Jews full well understood Jesus’ claim to divinity and that is why they sought to murder him.

b.   “I and the Father are one". (John 10:30)

Again this requires a far deeper look to the backdrop. The reason for this is two-fold. Unlike the Koran, the Gospels are not tight little one-liners, having little or no connection to the passages preceding or coming after the verse in question. Sometimes a verse is part of Jesus’ conversation which extends over three chapters. This form is particularly salient in John.

The second reason is that Jesus often talks in metaphor, allusions with extremely strong connections to the prophecies contained in the Old Testament. The above verse, 10:30, is a clear case in point. Here Jesus makes the outrageous and unmistakeable claim that he is the shepherd of Israel. Over and over again the Old Testament identifies God as that ultimate shepherd. For example, “Yahweh is my shepherd” (Psalm22), or

“‘For thus says the Lord GOD: “Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out.” (The prophet Ezekiel 34:11)
or

“Behold, the Lord GOD shall come with a strong hand…He will feed His flock like a shepherd.” (The prophet Isaiah 40) or

“Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, you who lead Joseph like a flock; you who dwell between the cherubim, shine forth!” (David’s Psalm 80:1.)

(BTW, he who dwells between the cherubim is God himself as can be understood from multiple passages. E.g., “And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, about everything which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel.” Exodus 25:22. Or from Isaiah 37:16, “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, the one who dwells between the cherubim, you are God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.”)

Returning to John 10, here’s the “The Father and I are one” passage IN CONTEXT. (Remember the sage advice that a verse without context is just a pretext for what we want it to mean.)

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

And then,
“Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.

c.   “If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." (John 14:9) The context is that the disciples wanted proof that he was who he said he was. This is what Jesus said leading up to his statement that he was God:

“You must not let yourselves be distressed—you must hold on to your faith in God and to your faith in me. There are many rooms in my Father’s House. If there were not, should I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? It is true that I am going away to prepare a place for you, but it is just as true that I am coming again to welcome you into my own home, so that you may be where I am. You know where I am going and you know the road I am going to take.”
“Lord,” Thomas remonstrated, “we do not know where you’re going, and how can we know what road you’re going to take?”
“I myself am the way,” replied Jesus, “and the truth and the life. No one approaches the Father except through me. If you had known who I am, you would have known my Father. From now on, you do know him and you have seen him.
 Then Philip said to him, “Show us the Father, Lord, and we shall be satisfied.”
“Have I been such a long time with you,” returned Jesus, “without your really knowing me, Philip? The man who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The very words I say to you are not my own. It is the Father who lives in me who carries out his work through me. Do you believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? But if you cannot, then believe me because of what you see me do.” (John 14)

2.   In all three Johannine passages, as Ehrman admits, Jesus has unambiguously claimed divinity. What he mistakenly goes onto claim is that in the three Synoptic Gospels Jesus does not claim this. Here are just a small sample of incidents where Jesus claims otherwise.

a.   ““Be on your guard against false religious teachers, who come to you dressed up as sheep but are really greedy wolves…It is not everyone who keeps saying to me ‘Lord, Lord’ who will enter the kingdom of Heaven,[/b] but the man who actually does my Heavenly Father’s will. In ‘that day’ many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we preach in your name, didn’t we cast out devils in your name, and do many great things in your name?’ Then I shall tell them plainly, ‘I have never known you. Go away from me, you have worked on the side of evil!’” (Matthew 7)

b.   “Then he went aboard the boat, and his disciples followed him. Before long a terrific storm sprang up and the boat was awash with the waves. Jesus was sleeping soundly and the disciples went forward and woke him up. “Lord, save us!” they cried. “We are drowning!”
“What are you so frightened about, you little-faiths?” he replied. Then he got to his feet and rebuked the wind and the waters and there was a great calm. The men were filled with astonishment and kept saying, “Whatever sort of man is this—why, even the wind and the waves do what he tells them!” (Matthew 8) This is a reference to the Psalms: “You, Yahweh, rule the raging of the sea; when its waves rise, you still them.” (Psalm 89)

c.   “Directly after this, Jesus made his disciples get aboard the boat and go on ahead to Bethsaida on the other side of the lake, while he himself sent the crowds home. And when he had sent them all on their way, he went off to the hill-side to pray. When it grew late, the boat was in the middle of the lake, and he was by himself on land. He saw them straining at the oars, for the wind was dead against them. And in the small hours he went towards them, walking on the waters of the lake, intending to come alongside them. But when they saw him walking on the water, they thought he was a ghost, and screamed out. For they all saw him and they were absolutely terrified. But Jesus at once spoke quietly to them, “It’s all right, it is I myself; don’t be afraid!”
And he climbed aboard the boat with them, and the wind dropped. But they were scared out of their wits. They had not had the sense to learn the lesson of the loaves. Even that miracle had not opened their eyes to see who he was.” (Mark 6) This incident refers to the prophet Job saying, “God alone spreads out the heavens, and treads on the waves of the sea.” (Job 9)

d.   “One Sabbath day, as Jesus happened to be passing through the cornfields, his disciples began picking the ears of corn, rubbing them in their hands, and eating them. Some of the Pharisees remarked, “Why are you doing what the Law forbids men to do on the Sabbath day?”
Jesus answered them and said, “Have you never read what David and his companions did when they were hungry? How he went into the house of God, took the presentation loaves, ate some bread himself and gave some to his companions, even though the Law does not permit anyone except the priests to eat it?”
Then he added, “The Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.” (Luke 6)
Jesus is again unequivocally claiming he is God because only God is Lord of the Sabbath. This can be read from, inter alia, this passage: “‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.” (Leviticus 23)

e.   “Later, while Jesus was teaching in the Temple he remarked, “How can the scribes make out that Christ is David’s son, for David himself, inspired by the Holy Spirit, said, ‘Yahweh said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool’. David is himself calling Christ ‘Lord’—where do they get the idea that he is his son?” And the common people heard him gladly.” (Mark 12)
Jesus quotes David’s Psalm 110, one of the strangest and most complex of all prophecies. Jesus was busting the common misconception that the much longed for Messiah would be merely a human progeny in the Davidic line. Jesus pointed out that the Messiah would be much more because David said that even he, David, would bow to his superiority by calling the Messiah, Lord, despite the Messiah coming well after David. But more importantly, and a point that quite possibly the common people didn’t pick up on was that the Messiah, David’s Lord, would sit at the right hand of Yahweh. Anyone who sat at the right hand of a king was EQUAL to that king. That’s why the Messiah is called KING MESSIAH. (BTW, you’ll notice that on their thrones Prince Phillip and Charles have never sat at the right hand of Queen Elizabeth when she is sitting on her throne because she is of higher rank. They always sat to her left. And so it was in ancient times.)
(BTW, it has a dual prophetic substance in that the Messiah, David’s Lord, must not only be of the kingly (and priestly!) lineage of David but also of the non-Davidic and non-Abrahamic line of the High Priest Melchizedek. This is a huge conundrum, that I would argue can only be solved through the virgin birth.)

3.   But let me finish this long post off with a return to John’s Gospel.
John, Jesus’ most loved disciple, recorded Jesus words directly. Jesus said, "For just as the Father raises the dead and makes them live, so does the Son give life to any man he chooses. The Father is no man’s judge: he has put judgment entirely into the Son’s hands, so that all men may honour the Son equally with the Father. The man who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father who sent him. I solemnly assure you that the man who hears what I have to say and believes in the one who has sent me has eternal life. He does not have to face judgment; he has already passed from death into life. Yes, I assure you that a time is coming, in fact has already come, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and when they have heard it they will live! For just as the Father has life in himself, so by the Father’s gift, the Son also has life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is Son of Man. No, do not be surprised—the time is coming when all those who are dead and buried will hear his voice and out they will come—those who have done right will rise again to life, but those who have done wrong will rise to face judgment!...Now you have never at any time heard what the Father says or seen what he is like. Nor do you really believe his word in your hearts, for you refuse to believe the man whom he has sent. You pore over the scriptures for you imagine that you will find eternal life in them. And all the time the scriptures give their testimony to me! But you are not willing to come to me to have real life! Men’s approval or disapproval means nothing to me, but I can tell that you have none of the love of God in your hearts. I have come in the name of my Father and you will not accept me. Yet if another man comes simply in his own name, you will accept him. How on earth can you believe while you are for ever looking for each other’s approval and not for the glory that comes from the one God? There is no need for you to think that I have come to accuse you before the Father. You already have an accuser—Moses, in whom you put all your confidence! For if you really believed Moses, you would be bound to believe me; for is was about me that he wrote. But if you do not believe what he wrote, how can you believe what I say”?... When Jesus had said these words, he raised his eyes to Heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son now so that he may bring glory to you, for you have given him authority over all men to give eternal life for all that you have given to him. And this is eternal life, to know you, the only true God, and him whom you have sent—Jesus Christ. I have brought you honour upon earth, I have completed the task which you gave me to do. Now, Father, honour me in your own presence with the glory that I knew with you before the world was made." (John 5 & 17)

In summary, this is what Jesus has claimed:
a.   To judge the dead.
b.   The honour due to the Father is similarly and equally owed him
c.   At his voice the dead shall rise to judgement.
d.   He was eternal and had not come into existence
e.   Death has no hold on him.
f.   He was the creator
g.   He was the author and originator of life
h.   He was Lord of the Sabbath
i.   He had spoken to Moses
j.   He had met Abraham
k.   The entire Bible witnessed to his existence
l.   He, and only he, could grant eternal life

AND YOU WANT TO FOLLOW MUHAMMAD? MAKES ZERO SENSE!

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1780
  • Karma +5/-4
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #127 on: September 29, 2021, 05:06:56 PM »
https://youtube.com/shorts/RUyv9Pk1J3k?feature=share

How emotional she was...  I wonder what made her to believe.. Do you guys have any other video of her which explains the reason to believe in one God..

John

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 323
  • Karma +0/-6
Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #128 on: September 29, 2021, 05:50:18 PM »
https://youtube.com/shorts/RUyv9Pk1J3k?feature=share

How emotional she was...  I wonder what made her to believe.. Do you guys have any other video of her which explains the reason to believe in one God..

Yep, you put your finger on it without realising it: EMOTIONAL.

As a trained philosopher, emotion does NOT equal proof. Facts, logical arguments, experiments, data do, but tears? Oh come on kiddies: If you guys place any value on this woman's tears, then you really are a lost cause.


jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1780
  • Karma +5/-4
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jesus was not crucified, he said "I will not die but live"
« Reply #129 on: September 29, 2021, 07:30:53 PM »
Big brother! Let me be more amicable with you.  Whatever you presented here in this forum make me perceive following;

** You are a strong believer in Jesus and you take him as son of God for which I don't blame you, since it is what written in the Bible that you take for your salvation.

** For whatever reason you have read Quran as well, but it is obvious you have initiated your journey of reading Quran with contempt. You have taken it for granted..

** In the end you have come to a conclusion that Quran is not from God but it is from a human being who was cruel in his action and words,  thus discarding fundamentals of Quran. You even disregarded verses like Mohamed who himself claimed that the book is not his but from God. He clearly gave the authorship to God and manifestly explained people that he doesn't know anything of future or  even clarified to people that he was not an angel.. No benefit he himself achieved by revealing a book for couple of decades or so. To have women for sex or to marry under aged girls in Arabia, it is not required to bring a book. It was so freely available.

Let me explain my stance..

We are told in Quran to believe in all previous scriptures and not make any distinction among any prophets / messengers. With That clear command, we opted a way. A way of God. So most of educated believers even do read Bible.  But why we decline Bible or part of it or some contradictory verses while we have been manifestly commanded to believe in previous scriptures and its messengers. That's core for us. The reason is, glaring discrepancies which makes us to use our intellects.
No Christian or no Muslim can deny that there is no discrepancies when compared to Quran with Bible. Crucifixion and Trinity themselves sufficient.
Either Quran is wrong or Bible. Both simultaneously cannot be right.
Now, under these circumstances what should we do as believers in Quran?
So we approached a book beyond Bible. I mean Torah. Most of what is written in it is more resembling to Quran though some verses are not. But the core message is "God is One."  That's more than enough. So Torah doesn't lie. And Quran agrees with it. Then why Bible went entirely against both of these scriptures?
Subsequently, it doesn't allow us to leave Quran and accept Bible while Torah still resembles to many of fundamental Quranic messages though quran itself blamed both Jews and Christians and their books. So it is clear author of Quran is not against these two communities but only against who are against God with invention.
So I don't see any reason that I should believe in Bible. But I do believe that Isa was given a book called Injeel in which full of guidance.

Horrible part for me in Christianity is Crusifxion and son of God or Trinity.

Crucifixion is a manifest deception if in fact God did that to himself. Clearly deceived innocent people.
If Jesus was God and brutally nailed to the cross and it was witnessed by some of the children of Israel who kept faith on Jesus weeping and beating themselves while many who witnessed rejoiced at the death of Jesus, then God sent everyone in astray who were looking at it.
Why?..  As part of God, being in the form of Jesus He knew He will not die even it looked so to people. So He, Jesus didn't literally suffer but acted to be suffering, because God cannot suffer at the hands of weak human beings who are in fact created by God. Suffering is not part of God's  nature. Needless. Suffering is only with those who are creatures.

Why did Jesus deceive children of Israel as if He was suffering in the cross and talking to himself calling one his own Trinity? What drama? What benefit for those witnessed it? Just duping them for a while as if he was suffering and then after three days showing a miracle only at one woman's sight. And missing from then forever leaving all Christians to believe that Jesus would come back while generations after generations die without witnessing his return.
What benefit for people? Did the crucifixion cleansed us or made all human being pure.. What nonsense that is..

I can't imagine how sexually aroused christian god is..

You know why.. Somehow god deceived Mary.  Coming in the form of one of his Trinity and let her conceive yo show his third eye.. Lol.
Then one of his trinity became son.. Then Jesus married and enjoyed family life.. Doesn't god love human body? So Christian god (god,  Holy Spirit,  Jesus) were playing around with females of human being.. Just coming in the form of Trinity..
Why?.. Doesn't god Jesus have anyone in the heaven as wife?  Why Mary Magdalene ?
OMG literally god married to a human.. What a lucky woman she was.. This reminds me no more than some Greek gods ...

Creator of Earth and heavens this much lowly?
Or far above from what you claim?
I hope Mary Magdalene would have a wonderful place on the day of judgement Coz Jesus is the judge.. Perhaps Father would satisfy with Mary.. Poor Holy Spirit.
Shame shame.. 

Incredible.. How you people are deluded this much without using your own wits..

Give some respect to the one who created you.. That's all I have to say..