Author Topic: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ... (Read 10558 times)

Houriya · « **Reply #110 on:** November 14, 2019, 12:08:45 AM »

The shared video invalidates the theory of deleting the last 2 verses of chapter 9. Only God holds the interpretation of the quran.

I have nothing against code 19

Quote from: jkhan on November 13, 2019, 05:29:59 PM

When you said this invalidates theory of RK means the research of Ibn you mean... If so, then don't judge by only one research of this nature the massive preciseness shown in tampering calculations... Did you study them... That's really beyond imagination.... If you accept this and to say RK and crew research invalidates then you have to deny the logic....
I don't say ibn research is wrong.. But his research results further exposes 19.. Who in fact trigured all this numerically constructed researches... So we better respect them. Forgetting the inception may lead us astray...

ibn_a · « **Reply #111 on:** November 17, 2019, 01:51:32 AM »

Salaam,

Quote from: jkhan on November 13, 2019, 09:08:28 AM

That's super cool research... I love numerical pattern.... When I read initially what RK brought I was so astonished... But I never verified but searched anyone denied him with serious research... But only in ego....
Anyhow dude one of RKs research surprised me is tampering with verse 9:128-129...to date I believe in it coz of such innormous tally....
So you have taken for chapter 9 as Aladheem... So I hope it is 129th verse.... So still you found your research cool... Honestly good... But will this work out if the last verse of chapter 9 is 127...i hope it is for both of your research... Isn't it?.. But confirm me... I am not good at counting Arabic letters.... Simply don't like that job.... Lol...
If not deviate your and RK still stand... If not one of you is wrong

ibn_a · « **Reply #112 on:** November 17, 2019, 02:40:16 AM »

Salaam,

Quote from: Noon waalqalami on November 13, 2019, 11:38:08 PM

peace, it depends on the definition of “prime” only divisible by 1 and itself.
if 1 is prime or not it means nothing still trial/error 18/19 failures 1/19 hits.

the chapters/order and the verse numbers are man-made
the initials were not separate verses in oldest manuscripts
e.g. using code/whatever tell which ch/vrs are these, why?

وىل woe ىومىذ day thereof للمكذبىن to those deniers

19 multiples meaningless thousands of digits billions of possibilities is most nonsensical stuff on the internet, many don’t realize what they're doing get stimulated each time they get a hit/fix like a drug; code if there is such, find consistent repeatable pattern; although first need correct counts, etc.

ا   'Alif   52,000+    (under investigation 1,000+ added compared to the oldest manuscripts)
ل   lãm   38623
ن   nün   27382
م   mïm   27071
ى   yã'   25870   (under investigation)
و   waw   25572   (under investigation)
ه   hã'   17306
ر   rã'   12627
ب   Bã'   11603
ت   Tã'   10520
ك   kãf   10497
ع   'ain   9405   = 19 x 495 (so what?)
ف   fã'   8747
ق   qãf   7034
س   sïn   6124
د   dãl   5991
ذ   dzãl   4932
ح   Hã'   4364
ج   JÏm   3317
خ   khã'   2497
ش   syïn   2124
ص   ṣād   2072
ض   dhãd   1686
ز   zai   1599
ث   Tsã'   1414
ط   thã'   1273   = 19 x 67 (so what?)
غ   ghain   1221
ظ   zhã'   853

Peace Noon waalqalami,

No offence intended, but it seems that you repeat the same objections, suggest to reread my response to your objections here:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.0
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610099.0

About some of the spelling:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610294.0
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610132.70

Quote from: Noon waalqalami on November 13, 2019, 11:38:08 PM

1,000+ alifs added 150+ years later not in oldest manuscripts.
they are easy to spot and the scribes of old would write thus:

25:77 لزما (4 letters) NOT لزاما (5 letters)

55:78 والاكرم (7 letters) NOT والاكرام (8 letters)

88:26 حسبهم (5 letters) NOT حسابهم (6 letters)

110:3 توبا (4 letters) NOT توابا (5 letters)

see examples from two of the oldest dated manuscripts ...
649-675, CE (95.4%) Tübingen, University Library: Ma VI 165
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/21/vers/1/handschrift/107

translation: https://i.postimg.cc/mDz7dt4f/ch20v129-ch21v3.jpg

568-645 CE (95.4%) Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France: Arabe 328 (c)
Radiocarbon measurement of the Birmingham Fragment Islamic Arabic 1572 (a)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/21/vers/1?handschrift=158

- As for "your oldest manuscript examples", see for example in these same manuscripts the spelling of the word: bi3adaab بعذاب with alif in this manuscript:

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8415207g/f165.item
568-645 CE (95.4%) Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France: Arabe 328 (c)

And: bi3adaab بعذ ب without alif in this manuscript:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/21/vers/1/handschrift/107
649-675, CE (95.4%) Tübingen, University Library: Ma VI 165

- So how to solve this issue ?
Different qiraa't / readings could be a possible explanation for the difference of the spelling of some words, like the "Hafs, Warsh, Qaloon,..."

------

- Another of your examples about the spelling of the word: hisabouhum حسبهم
see also this manuscript that you said as being oldest manuscipt: hisabouhum حسابهم with alif.

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610132.msg419034#msg419034

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/6/vers/52/handschrift/163/flip/1

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/6/vers/69/handschrift/163/flip/1

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/21/vers/1/handschrift/163/flip/1

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/26/vers/113/handschrift/163/flip/1

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/88/vers/26/handschrift/163/flip/1

------

My understanding:
- I think that there is more evidence / indication for a numerical structure then its absence, even that it could be argued that some results are forced, exaggerated, coincidences or contain errors.

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Noon waalqalami · « **Reply #113 on:** November 17, 2019, 07:00:47 AM »

Quote from: ibn_a on November 17, 2019, 02:40:16 AM

Peace Noon waalqalami,

No offence intended, but it seems that you repeat the same objections, suggest to reread my response to your objections here:

- As for "your oldest manuscript examples", see for example in these same manuscripts the spelling of the word: bi3adaab بعذاب with alif in this manuscript:

My understanding:
- I think that there is more evidence / indication for a numerical structure then its absence, even that it could be argued that some results are forced, exaggerated, coincidences or contain errors.

peace, in some old manuscripts numerous alifs were penned in later on many words; regardless if with/without alif – it is known that everything presented on nineteen is simple iterations; try something, if fail try something else (18/19 failures) until get a hit (1/19) then present call it miraculous. It’s statistically meaningless easily done with most any text, 9:128-129, or other numbers 7, 11, 29, etc.

If want to find consistent code/pattern perhaps study repeated verses/phrases e.g. most repeated phrase:
ان indeed الله the god (205 occurrences/frequency)

Likewise, don’t come back with nineteen stuff after iterating flipping things unless you present all failed attempts – and if you get lucky e.g. first attempt at above will certainly arouse the infatuated (150 130305 = 19 x 7901595) then test next phrase or verse etc., for consistency.

ibn_a · « **Reply #114 on:** November 25, 2019, 02:10:17 AM »

Salaam,

Quote from: Noon waalqalami on November 17, 2019, 07:00:47 AM

peace, in some old manuscripts numerous alifs were penned in later on many words; regardless if with/without alif – it is known that everything presented on nineteen is simple iterations; try something, if fail try something else (18/19 failures) until get a hit (1/19) then present call it miraculous. It’s statistically meaningless easily done with most any text, 9:128-129, or other numbers 7, 11, 29, etc.

If want to find consistent code/pattern perhaps study repeated verses/phrases e.g. most repeated phrase:
ان indeed الله the god (205 occurrences/frequency)

Likewise, don’t come back with nineteen stuff after iterating flipping things unless you present all failed attempts – and if you get lucky e.g. first attempt at above will certainly arouse the infatuated (150 130305 = 19 x 7901595) then test next phrase or verse etc., for consistency.

Peace Noon waalqalami,

Of course obvious that when there is a large amount of data, some of it could be a multiple of whatever number, no issue about that, but that does not exclude a structure / pattern, if this was the author' s intention.

It is also logical to differentiate between that what is due to coincidence ( 1/whatever number ) and that what is intended by the Author.

Not sure about a methode to find an intended pattern wthout failures.

Logique that failures are due to the fact that the patterns / structures are no known in advance.

I do not see the relevance about the failures, as they do not disprove a possible numerical structure

Failures do not change the facts, if there are.

-----

The issue / question is about intended or not.
example:

- Are the 114 capters of the Quran intended or it just happen to be 114 ?

- Was the basmalah chosen to have 19 letters or it just happen to be 19 ?

- Why is there no Basmalah in chapter 9 and an extra Basmalah in chapter 27, and why this 19 chapter distance?

- Are the positions of the chapters (with initial letters) assinged or could they be in any other position?

- What is 74: 30-31 about ?

- etc ....

Source:

The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/1/1690-2014-07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view

-Quran : Uthmani Script.

http://www.alargam.com/prove2/burhan3/6.htm
http://www.alargam.com/

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Noon waalqalami · « **Reply #115 on:** November 25, 2019, 12:48:21 PM »

peace ibn_a, no need to show/post nineteen stuff already seen it all.

It’s all intended by author i.e. the words written and no coincidence “hunting” multiples...
1/7, 1/11, 1/19, 1/29, etc. you’ll get probable hits most any text, walking down street, etc.

74:31 is about disease ... وما and not جعلنا made we of عدتهم count theirs الا except فتنه fitnatan للذىن for the ones كفروا reject they of

19 letters: 2:18 صم deaf بكم dumb عمى blind فهم so they لا not ىرجعون returning

6236 verses 1/19 ~328 expected to be multiple +/- 5% range -- why are you surprised?

Again, all trial/error 18/19 failures, 1/19 hits hunting multiples -- then present in colors.

1   [1:1]
2   [48:1]
3   [107:1]
4   [110:1]
5   [64:1]
6   [35:1]
7   [65:1]
8   [19:2]
9   [41:2]
10   [68:2]
11   [97:2]
12   [105:2]
13   [111:2]
14   [48:3]
15   [62:3]
16   [7:3]
17   [14:3]
18   [49:3]
19   [23:4]
20   [86:4]
21   [90:4]
22   [58:4]
23   [1:5]
24   [20:5]
25   [54:5]
26   [16:5]
27   [21:5]
28   [88:6]
29   [26:6]
30   [35:6]
31   [24:6]
32   [38:7]
33   [48:7]
34   [13:7]
35   [33:7]
36   [57:7]
37   [70:8]
38   [84:8]
39   [15:8]
40   [45:8]
41   [62:8]
42   [30:8]
43   [84:9]
44   [85:9]
45   [24:10]
46   [67:10]
47   [64:10]
48   [100:11]
49   [73:12]
50   [79:12]
51   [87:12]
52   [18:12]
53   [54:12]
54   [67:12]
55   [7:12]
56   [33:12]
57   [9:12]
58   [66:12]
59   [11:12]
60   [51:13]
61   [87:13]
62   [41:13]
63   [67:13]
64   [4:13]
65   [43:14]
66   [27:14]
67   [36:14]
68   [51:15]
69   [76:15]
70   [12:16]
71   [33:16]
72   [40:16]
73   [5:16]
74   [15:17]
75   [26:17]
76   [52:17]
77   [56:17]
78   [89:17]
79   [24:17]
80   [2:18]
81   [51:18]
82   [76:18]
83   [82:18]
84   [87:18]
85   [26:18]
86   [52:18]
87   [85:19]
88   [39:19]
89   [42:19]
90   [32:19]
91   [69:20]
92   [81:20]
93   [24:20]
94   [32:20]
95   [51:21]
96   [46:21]
97   [89:22]
98   [6:22]
99   [20:23]
100   [32:23]
101   [9:23]
102   [22:23]
103   [4:23]
104   [74:24]
105   [19:24]
106   [26:24]
107   [29:24]
108   [8:24]
109   [29:25]
110   [6:25]
111   [23:26]
112   [79:26]
113   [31:26]
114   [19:26]
115   [8:26]
116   [24:26]
117   [44:27]
118   [89:27]
119   [31:27]
120   [16:27]
121   [57:27]
122   [83:28]
123   [19:28]
124   [67:28]
125   [35:28]
126   [57:28]
127   [13:29]
128   [19:29]
129   [31:29]
130   [26:30]
131   [83:30]
132   [31:30]
133   [6:30]
134   [7:30]
135   [46:30]
136   [17:31]
137   [68:32]
138   [39:32]
139   [83:33]
140   [11:33]
141   [15:33]
142   [43:33]
143   [51:34]
144   [38:34]
145   [54:34]
146   [53:35]
147   [69:35]
148   [79:35]
149   [12:35]
150   [37:35]
151   [47:35]
152   [45:35]
153   [6:35]
154   [20:36]
155   [23:36]
156   [17:36]
157   [39:36]
158   [20:37]
159   [38:37]
160   [29:37]
161   [43:37]
162   [18:37]
163   [30:37]
164   [78:38]
165   [23:39]
166   [52:39]
167   [39:39]
168   [37:40]
169   [80:40]
170   [13:40]
171   [17:40]
172   [36:40]
173   [53:41]
174   [77:41]
175   [14:41]
176   [41:41]
177   [55:41]
178   [34:41]
179   [39:41]
180   [80:42]
181   [68:42]
182   [3:42]
183   [14:42]
184   [20:43]
185   [77:44]
186   [30:44]
187   [9:44]
188   [15:45]
189   [37:45]
190   [79:45]
191   [25:45]
192   [27:45]
193   [55:46]
194   [23:46]
195   [53:47]
196   [54:47]
197   [15:47]
198   [12:47]
199   [29:49]
200   [17:50]
201   [44:50]
202   [69:50]
203   [34:50]
204   [44:51]
205   [18:51]
206   [7:51]
207   [37:52]
208   [5:52]
209   [34:53]
210   [36:53]
211   [23:54]
212   [26:54]
213   [40:54]
214   [51:54]
215   [16:54]
216   [20:54]
217   [27:54]
218   [34:54]
219   [38:55]
220   [8:55]
221   [24:55]
222   [37:56]
223   [29:56]
224   [22:56]
225   [3:57]
226   [6:57]
227   [4:57]
228   [22:58]
229   [53:59]
230   [37:60]
231   [9:60]
232   [38:62]
233   [21:63]
234   [26:63]
235   [8:63]
236   [20:65]
237   [20:67]
238   [4:68]
239   [8:68]
240   [33:68]
241   [17:68]
242   [40:69]
243   [7:69]
244   [28:71]
245   [6:72]
246   [15:73]
247   [18:73]
248   [27:73]
249   [8:73]
250   [3:73]
251   [37:74]
252   [7:74]
253   [9:74]
254   [2:75]
255   [8:75]
256   [9:76]
257   [10:76]
258   [3:77]
259   [20:79]
260   [26:79]
261   [28:79]
262   [37:80]
263   [37:81]
264   [17:82]
265   [15:83]
266   [20:83]
267   [56:83]
268   [16:83]
269   [4:86]
270   [56:87]
271   [26:88]
272   [56:88]
273   [21:88]
274   [12:89]
275   [11:89]
276   [6:91]
277   [15:92]
278   [16:95]
279   [26:96]
280   [37:96]
281   [7:98]
282   [26:99]
283   [12:99]
284   [21:101]
285   [4:101]
286   [12:102]
287   [16:102]
288   [37:103]
289   [10:105]
290   [2:107]
291   [5:108]
292   [20:110]
293   [37:111]
294   [26:114]
295   [16:117]
296   [37:121]
297   [3:122]
298   [37:123]
299   [20:126]
300   [37:128]
301   [2:128]
302   [37:131]
303   [37:132]
304   [4:132]
305   [6:137]
306   [6:138]
307   [37:141]
308   [37:142]
309   [26:154]
310   [26:157]
311   [37:160]
312   [2:160]
313   [6:162]
314   [4:164]
315   [2:166]
316   [3:173]
317   [2:180]
318   [3:181]
319   [26:188]
320   [2:190]
321   [3:191]
322   [26:192]
323   [3:200]
324   [26:212]
325   [26:214]
326   [2:230]
327   [2:250]
328   [2:257]
329   [2:273]

A few above may be off due to 1000+ alif's added to script 100+ years later, different verse numbering and nothing to do with Warsh / Hafs since they were not born at time some old manuscripts were dated. Hopefully you understand it's all statistically meaningless and expected.

good logic · « **Reply #116 on:** November 26, 2019, 07:18:58 AM »

Peace ibn_a.
There are many types of people arguing the "19" base of Qoran:

Those who insist it is coincidence ,so what? they argue you can find patterns in any book or make up pattern using today s computers randomly.

Those who see the unique pattern and order in Qoran as impossible to imitate now, never mind before computers. They see that the numerical base has been made to accommodate all the letters of Qoran, each letter to its special place in the text. They also see the present arrangement of verses and surahs are also mathematically placed . They see a miracle arrangement that cannot be man made.

Those who overdo this "19" base and try to find all sorts of patterns and get carried away with it.

And those that imitate it and try very hard to underplay any 19 fact found in Qoran.

Yet it is plainly obvious to anyone who checks ,regardless of their mathematical background, that there are many facts indicating the text is deliberately composed and structured mathematically as well as the order of the surahs and placing of verses in the surahs.

Coincidence is far from an accurate description. In my opinion ,it is denial, which they are entitled to.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

jkhan · « **Reply #117 on:** November 26, 2019, 08:27:40 AM »

Quote from: good logic on November 26, 2019, 07:18:58 AM

Peace ibn_a.
There are many types of people arguing the "19" base of Qoran:

Those who insist it is coincidence ,so what? they argue you can find patterns in any book or make up pattern using today s computers randomly.

Those who see the unique pattern and order in Qoran as impossible to imitate now, never mind before computers. They see that the numerical base has been made to accommodate all the letters of Qoran, each letter to its special place in the text. They also see the present arrangement of verses and surahs are also mathematically placed . They see a miracle arrangement that cannot be man made.

Those who overdo this "19" base and try to find all sorts of patterns and get carried away with it.

And those that imitate it and try very hard to underplay any 19 fact found in Qoran.

Yet it is plainly obvious to anyone who checks ,regardless of their mathematical background, that there are many facts indicating the text is deliberately composed and structured mathematically as well as the order of the surahs and placing of verses in the surahs.

Coincidence is far from an accurate description. In my opinion ,it is denial, which they are entitled to.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace...

I agree with you.... Denial of numerically structured pattern in quran is total waste of their effort.... They will soon know what they denied... Honestly... In my case I personally shed tears when I knew about numerical pattern and its preciseness and it definitely strengthened my belief out of nowhere and led me to loads of research within Quran with confidence... It made me speak for QURAN among non Muslim with confidence that God is there...
Anyhow if anyone not accept it.. Let it be.. It is pointless to make them board in your ship...

But... I wonder why they deny it... God placed chapters with meaningless letters... What guidance it gives us? If verses are not meant for numbering why in chapter 42 letters are written as two verses... HA' Meem then second verse 'Ain Seen Qaf '... Why not write as one verse like chapter 19.. Why two separate verses... Has it written in any old version of Quran together? If not why separate? Ponder pls...
Further.... In chapter 19 it is written with almost 5 letters.. Why not take it as a meaningful verse rather than a set of letters.. Coz you don't find meaning for it....
If alifs are added then how do you know which book is quran .... Don't you try to say no one has the preserved quran....
How do you know alifs are added or removed alifs are rightly replaced... I am addressing this to anyone who claim so...
Which oldest copy is taken as quran now... Is Quran a piece of joke and still you follow...
Reality of the Quran is manifested with numerical pattern... That's far from denial... Attempting is waste of time... What makes you believe in this modern world while still neglect numerical pattern in it... What makes you think that QURAN is in fact a book from god... What makes you accept whatever you accepted is the right copy?
Absolutely nonsensical the approach....
I know anyone who deny numerical pattern in quran won't like what I wrote above... But their claim is meaningless....

seekingtruth1111 · « **Reply #118 on:** November 26, 2019, 10:31:44 AM »

I have a curious question regarding the extra alif you guys are talking about

How do we know which one is correct?

For example
verse 2:2

ذٰلِكَ الكِتٰبُ لا رَيبَ فيهِ هُدًى لِلمُتَّقينَ

The word الكِتٰبُ is found in written with extra alif in some places as الْكِتَابُ

http://quranix.org/2#2

ذَٰلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لَا رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِلْمُتَّقِينَ

How do we know which one is correct spelling. What was the reason for adding extra alif to this word? Though it doesn't change the meaning of the word but my question is what was the need to add extra alif. Was it required to facilitate the pronunciation/vocalization/tone of the word?

Also where is the preserved tablet/master copy of the Quran to cross check? Is it the oldest copy found?

15:9 We, indeed We, it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.
85:21 No,it is a glorious Qur'an.
85:22 In a tablet, preserved.

peace

good logic · « **Reply #119 on:** November 26, 2019, 11:19:31 AM »

Peace All.

We have to ignore/ or not be able to explain many verses in Qoran if it was not for the mathematical structure of the book, verses like:

[Quran 10:20] They say, "How come no miracle came down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The future belongs to God; so wait, and I am waiting along with you."
Or are we still waiting? As far as I know the waiting is over ,the structure has appeared in this Mathematical age!
46:10
Say, "What if it is from God and you disbelieved in it? A witness from the Children of Israel has borne witness to a similar phenomenon,* and he has believed, while you have turned arrogant. Surely...
قُل أَرَءَيتُم إِن كانَ مِن عِندِ اللَّهِ وَكَفَرتُم بِهِ وَشَهِدَ شاهِدٌ مِن بَنى إِسرٰءيلَ عَلىٰ مِثلِهِ فَـٔامَنَ وَاستَكبَرتُم إِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يَهدِى القَومَ الظّٰلِمينَ
46:11
وَقالَ الَّذينَ كَفَروا لِلَّذينَ ءامَنوا لَو كانَ خَيرًا ما سَبَقونا إِلَيهِ وَإِذ لَم يَهتَدوا بِهِ فَسَيَقولونَ هٰذا إِفكٌ قَديمٌ

Unless someone explains who the witness of Beni Israel is and what was similar to Qoran? As far as I know it can only be Rabbi Judah the Pious-11th Century?

Or verses like all the initials in the 29 surahs that have no meaning?
Or the spelling of certain words and the usage of different words, like Quawmu Lot in some and Ikhwanu Lot in other verses....etc...

For me, the structure and composition of Qoran explains many odd verses and different spellings. The famous one is "NUN"
GOD not only assured us how it spelt in :

21:87
And Zan-Noon (Jonah, "the one with an `N' in his name"), abandoned his mission in protest, thinking that we could not control him. He ended up imploring from the darkness (of the big fish's belly): "There is no god other than You. Be You glorified. I have committed a gross sin."
وَذَا النّونِ إِذ ذَهَبَ مُغٰضِبًا فَظَنَّ أَن لَن نَقدِرَ عَلَيهِ فَنادىٰ فِى الظُّلُمٰتِ أَن لا إِلٰهَ إِلّا أَنتَ سُبحٰنَكَ إِنّى كُنتُ مِنَ الظّٰلِمينَ

So What? Well count the "N"s in this verse, there are 14 exactly why? I say it is an indication to the 14 initials and this confirms the initial N in surah 68 is spelt the same "NUN" .

I am sorry ,I do not see coincidences but rather deliberate spelling of words to fit the structure.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Author Topic: ... And He has counted everything in numbers ... (Read 10558 times)

Houriya

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ibn_a

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ibn_a

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Noon waalqalami

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ibn_a

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Noon waalqalami

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good logic

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jkhan

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seekingtruth1111

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good logic

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